rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
Companies are people too, so shouldn't they have the freedom to do as they wish?
Really cool modular and freedom-respecting computer
vinipsmaker
Member
The way I decided the board to post was: it looks like the "appimage" thread, so I'll post in the same board. Sorry.
Sorry, I've missed that. Is there a way to archive/close this thread?
comradekingu
Glowing ember
This seems an interesting alternative for future upgrades. http://hackerboards.com/first-socs-based-on-open-source-risc-v-run-linux/
Though I wonder about the custom bits.
Though I wonder about the custom bits.
hiya folks, thought you might appreciate that i mentioned the openpandora and the pyra on the latest update, reason being that the continuation of the approach that you guys began years ago is a really good example of a self-sustaining open hardware community that has a really high technical bar (in contrast to something like arduino 2-layer boards for example). dealing with suppliers, MOQs, multi-layer PCBs and 400mhz+ DDR3 RAM layouts *and* R.F. concerns *and* casework designs, that's pretty damn awesome and a huge achievement to have pulled it off not just once but twice (or maybe even 3 times now i think about it, with the GPX32... can't remember what it was called, it's been a while) anyway that definitely spells "continuity" and "self-sustaining community" and that's really inspirational for anyone else who wants to start an open hardware project.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/laptop-comparisons
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/laptop-comparisons
Thanks for mentioning the Pyra, @lkcl. I thought someone could remind here that that campaign is over half it's duration now, at 1/3rd of the money needed but 80% of units needed, at least for the cards. So it might reach the 150000 USD for the current campign or (I'm making this up) it could be torn down and a new capaign be started (or the current campaign transformed) with different money goals and the same card unit goals or something. Thre have been 19 updateshttps://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updateshttps://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates already and more products added to the reward choices.
Most in case here, a passthrough card has been added. If you get a laptop encasing (built and with an A20 card: 1200 - 1350 USD , as a kit with all pieces to mount yourself: 500 USD, as a kit with the pieces except the 3D printed parts and bamboo plywood: 450, all + shipping and any customs if outside US) you can add a passthrough card for 35 USD. With that you get a 15.6" screen, full size keyboard, 10Ah battery and small screen and touchscreen for mousepad, without CPU or RAM or disk, that you can use as a terminal for your pyra (or for a mobile phone, or a tablet, or a SBC, or a PC if your cables are long enough..., I'm afraid the pandora doesn't have HDMI output, only tvout, so it might not be usable with the passthrough card? ) . If you need to write code, memos, mail or work with a bigger monitor, in a more office style setting there are other options out there, but with this campaign you may back a nice concept without backing a SOC vendor you might not like, and you get the option to plug in later CPU modules if one comes out which is more to your taste. I'm not sure the option I mentioned of recycling an old Pyra CPU board in an EOMA 68 casing with some adapter hardwareafter an hypothetical future Pyra upgrade is viable (I suspect power problems), but yet, maybe some future Power ASICs give more choice or whatever...
Besides the laptop is open to repair, modding and adaptations and the schematics are GPL. In fact I suspect (but don't have the link at hand) that the 1200-500 USD difference is in part due to the project preferring people to learn by building their laptop as a way to enourage reapirs insted of disposal of reparaible hardware.
Also, if you dislike the CPU market, you can cover more use cases without buying so many CPUs.
Also new are some OS options in case you want the A20: now you can get Parabola, Debian, Devuan or Fedora preinstalled. To me this means you should be able to install other ARM distros with little effort (another update talks of tests with mainline linux 4.7rc5 and uboot 2016.07
Most in case here, a passthrough card has been added. If you get a laptop encasing (built and with an A20 card: 1200 - 1350 USD , as a kit with all pieces to mount yourself: 500 USD, as a kit with the pieces except the 3D printed parts and bamboo plywood: 450, all + shipping and any customs if outside US) you can add a passthrough card for 35 USD. With that you get a 15.6" screen, full size keyboard, 10Ah battery and small screen and touchscreen for mousepad, without CPU or RAM or disk, that you can use as a terminal for your pyra (or for a mobile phone, or a tablet, or a SBC, or a PC if your cables are long enough..., I'm afraid the pandora doesn't have HDMI output, only tvout, so it might not be usable with the passthrough card? ) . If you need to write code, memos, mail or work with a bigger monitor, in a more office style setting there are other options out there, but with this campaign you may back a nice concept without backing a SOC vendor you might not like, and you get the option to plug in later CPU modules if one comes out which is more to your taste. I'm not sure the option I mentioned of recycling an old Pyra CPU board in an EOMA 68 casing with some adapter hardwareafter an hypothetical future Pyra upgrade is viable (I suspect power problems), but yet, maybe some future Power ASICs give more choice or whatever...
Besides the laptop is open to repair, modding and adaptations and the schematics are GPL. In fact I suspect (but don't have the link at hand) that the 1200-500 USD difference is in part due to the project preferring people to learn by building their laptop as a way to enourage reapirs insted of disposal of reparaible hardware.
Also, if you dislike the CPU market, you can cover more use cases without buying so many CPUs.
Also new are some OS options in case you want the A20: now you can get Parabola, Debian, Devuan or Fedora preinstalled. To me this means you should be able to install other ARM distros with little effort (another update talks of tests with mainline linux 4.7rc5 and uboot 2016.07
diligentcircle
Well-Known Member
That passthrough card is really neat. I'm planning on ordering some of those. It's got a lot of potential for future applications too.
hmmm... there probably exist tv-to-hdmi adapters out there...
in part, yes. but, also, it's two more things: firstly, i'm going to be *really* busy! the extra amount would allow me to train and pay somebody else to handle assembly. but secondly, it's a way for those people who want to back the *ideas* to help fund the project, but also receive a huge reward at the same time. if you recall, the novena "heirloom" was $USD 5,000.
yes: i'll be testing FreeBSD at some point. SUGAR (on fedora24) has already been tested.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
What is interesting is there are over twice as many "Libre Tea"s sold than "practically perfect", that is even without the explicit RYF certification…
I remember from our RYF discussion one very overbearing sentiment from the viewpoint that nobody would be interested in anything like that.
I think its currently the highly technical people buying eoma68 cards, but not the gaming kind. Maybe a version of the pyra with added USB Wi-Fi makes sense?
I remember from our RYF discussion one very overbearing sentiment from the viewpoint that nobody would be interested in anything like that.
I think its currently the highly technical people buying eoma68 cards, but not the gaming kind. Maybe a version of the pyra with added USB Wi-Fi makes sense?
Anyway the RYF is "guaranteed", in the sense that if it finally is not RYF certified you can request a refund.
That should move the risk to the vendor, not the buyer, shouldn't it ?
Maybe people are aware of the issues but simply feel unable to act. And when certifications are offered, they see them as
a shortcut through understanding and navigating many issues. I know I'm a little like that in fields I don't understand (food, clothes, paper...)
Other people I know are more like the certification labels must be false or inappropiate in some sense (in a vein like if I don't understand enough to decide
which vendor to trust myself I don't understand enough to decide whether a certifier is trustworthy or shares enough of my values),
but I'm more like, I can't handle learning it all, so I'll have to trust some certifier until I know it's dishonest/misbehaving somehow.
And the FSF has credibility, so this might explain it.Also, it's difficult to reach enough volume in a ethical computing market without
some form of certification.
But I think it is above all a kind of mistrust of Allwinner combined with trust for the FSF, so if the FSF ends up certyifing, people take it to mean
that the issues with allwinner have been sorted out for this particular device and won't hinder the buyer. But if there is some remaining issues people trust the FSF not
to certify and the buyer to get their money back. For other SOC manufacturers there might be more of a don't care attitude but with Allwinner people
like the extra assurance and go for the Libre Tea even if they plan to install something other than Parabola when they get it.
I'm not a gaming type, so I tend to think you need high power and capable GPUs for gaming. Then the Pandora or other communities remind me from time to time that games
can be fun without being compute or 3d intensive, so I might be thinking from stereotypes, but I think the idea for the laptop is office use. It does not have gaming controls,
the current CPU card possibly can't handle some games, etc. But a buyer may want to do both gaming and office tasks with a single CPU, the Pyra or whatever gaming
devices + cable + passthrough card + laptop enclosure makes sense. And for the kind of people that tends to not have a PC at home and make do with a mobile
or tablet, but would like to do some wordprocesssing/editing web content/some kinds of programming/education/etc. without maintaining another computer, OS, etc., maybe
it's also worth it. But I think they need to have some technical inclination, at least to build stuff themselves or they'll find cheaper alternatives or apparent alternatives. I don't mean
the advantadges are only for technical people, just that technical people are more likely to see them.
You mean an Atheros chip added in so you don't have to use the proprietary wifi firmware ? I'd like that.
Yet I think you can just buy an USB adapter, so I'm not sure it warrants a new Pyra version.
I'd probably take it if there was the option, but I will probably buy the current Pyra and a wifi dongle from tehnoetic or Think Penguin. Or from dragonbox if they ever carry them. I didn't find any technical details on the Caanoo. does it require blobs ?
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Even if as a guarantee against broken promises, its a promise of a promise you don't otherwise get, and one that is on offer.
If meaning to install something else, what would that be? There are some very mainstream options. People are lazy, and prefer a default, seeing as no OS isnt on offer or in demand.
All of which to me is proof that a RYF device has merit, and can carry itself without games or other things that compare to the mainstream of computer products.
Pyra being decidedly not mainstream, and aligning heavily already everywhere else, i'm thinking the effort could be worthwile.
The voices opposed to this pointed out packaging would be difficult, as that is a requirement, but here a smaller project thinks itself able to do it just fine.
There are a lot of journalists that need something like a Pyra.
If meaning to install something else, what would that be? There are some very mainstream options. People are lazy, and prefer a default, seeing as no OS isnt on offer or in demand.
All of which to me is proof that a RYF device has merit, and can carry itself without games or other things that compare to the mainstream of computer products.
Pyra being decidedly not mainstream, and aligning heavily already everywhere else, i'm thinking the effort could be worthwile.
The voices opposed to this pointed out packaging would be difficult, as that is a requirement, but here a smaller project thinks itself able to do it just fine.
There are a lot of journalists that need something like a Pyra.
Yes, a RYF Pyra would be great. You are right that the Pyra is so close and yet not there...
I think there may be technical reasons (maybe the Atheros chips are hard to get or whatever). But maybe there's
a vision problem with the designers not valueing the FSF approach. I think the FSF approach makes sense, from
a consumer POV. I understand a designer may find parts counterproductive, but those are needed to ensure consumer safety in the
larger picture. The same criteria that may seem to make a device less useful are there to make the certification, that
is, the set of all devices, more useful, by eliminating threats. Yet when anyone defends against you, you instintively react
with rejection, because you know you don't mean any harm and it's hard enough without added restrictions.
Yet sometimes it is wise to be prudent.
A RYF would be great for the Pyra because it would make it more attractive, but it would be great for RYF too,
because the more devices the better, and the more diverse in power and use case the better. If RYF goes terribly well,
it might come a day that there are too many RYF devices, but we're so far from it now...
That said, and I repeat I'd prefer a blobless wifi with the Pyra, I don't think it is impossible for someone else to get a RYF
for "refurbished" Pyras, which just add a dongle or are marketed without wifi or 3D. As you say there is a market, and
a different design might help, but yet it is not so unbelievable to imagine minifree, tehnoethic, think penguin or whoever
to sell RYF Pyras some day, by any other name. They already sell thihnkpads and so, who are not that worse in many accounts.
Right now the more urgent task is for the Pyra, EOMA68 and the few others to succeed, and then try to improve from there as
we can.
Whatever the buyer is used to. The effort to install a machine can be less than learning a new distro, depending on the user's experience.
Even if you want to install, say, debian, you may want to buy the Libre Tea so that you get your money back if there is no RYF in the end.
It is easier to install debian over Parabola than it is to reverse engineer some component of the SOC.
I think there may be technical reasons (maybe the Atheros chips are hard to get or whatever). But maybe there's
a vision problem with the designers not valueing the FSF approach. I think the FSF approach makes sense, from
a consumer POV. I understand a designer may find parts counterproductive, but those are needed to ensure consumer safety in the
larger picture. The same criteria that may seem to make a device less useful are there to make the certification, that
is, the set of all devices, more useful, by eliminating threats. Yet when anyone defends against you, you instintively react
with rejection, because you know you don't mean any harm and it's hard enough without added restrictions.
Yet sometimes it is wise to be prudent.
A RYF would be great for the Pyra because it would make it more attractive, but it would be great for RYF too,
because the more devices the better, and the more diverse in power and use case the better. If RYF goes terribly well,
it might come a day that there are too many RYF devices, but we're so far from it now...
That said, and I repeat I'd prefer a blobless wifi with the Pyra, I don't think it is impossible for someone else to get a RYF
for "refurbished" Pyras, which just add a dongle or are marketed without wifi or 3D. As you say there is a market, and
a different design might help, but yet it is not so unbelievable to imagine minifree, tehnoethic, think penguin or whoever
to sell RYF Pyras some day, by any other name. They already sell thihnkpads and so, who are not that worse in many accounts.
Right now the more urgent task is for the Pyra, EOMA68 and the few others to succeed, and then try to improve from there as
we can.
Whatever the buyer is used to. The effort to install a machine can be less than learning a new distro, depending on the user's experience.
Even if you want to install, say, debian, you may want to buy the Libre Tea so that you get your money back if there is no RYF in the end.
It is easier to install debian over Parabola than it is to reverse engineer some component of the SOC.
An RYF Pyra would only need an different Firmware, so there could be an (special) RYF-Certified Version of the Pyra alongside the normal Pyras (If that's allowed by the RYF). However making it the Default is not an Option, because for example DBP-Manager (because you could Download non-free Stuff with it) and other Stuff can't be shipped with it (Not even an Link to it is allowed). There is an Thread somewhere where all this was Discussed.
Edit: I think it was this one.
Edit: I think it was this one.
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WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
- Joined
- May 24, 2008
- Messages
- 16,731
The concern a few vocal people had was around what it would mean for the "official" repository. Some interpreted the RYF requirements to mean that anything ED officially endorsed could NOT have any form of non-free software, which is obviously a bad thing from our perspective; the Pandora repo has quite a few non-free things, and we are all better for it. Maybe not as better as if they had been released fully open source but arguably better than if they hadn't existed at all.
The other requirement of the RYF that I remember people taking issue with is that, while it was permitted to run non-free software, everything it was advertised to do must be possible with free software, and at least for the Pandora that would've made it impossible for EvilDragon to demonstrate some of the games and emulators that are available.
And you can't *just* put a different firmware on it. In order to be RYF certified, the "free" and "non-free" versions needed to be reckognizably different. It would need a prominent sticker or something to make it sufficiently different than anyone looking at it would notice. edit: and it needs a different name.
The other requirement of the RYF that I remember people taking issue with is that, while it was permitted to run non-free software, everything it was advertised to do must be possible with free software, and at least for the Pandora that would've made it impossible for EvilDragon to demonstrate some of the games and emulators that are available.
And you can't *just* put a different firmware on it. In order to be RYF certified, the "free" and "non-free" versions needed to be reckognizably different. It would need a prominent sticker or something to make it sufficiently different than anyone looking at it would notice. edit: and it needs a different name.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
So you buy letux woop-de-woop, it comes with an FSF approved distro, done.
Its is also a different item in the shop, and maybe a different logo-insert to seal the deal.
You can of course find anything on the internets at your own peril, but not be mislead into thinking the good-to-go stuff is anything but.
Its is also a different item in the shop, and maybe a different logo-insert to seal the deal.
You can of course find anything on the internets at your own peril, but not be mislead into thinking the good-to-go stuff is anything but.
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the one key defining misunderstanding of the benefits of RYF Certification is that hardware which is RYF Certified *JUST WORKS*. there's no "omg i forgot the firmware", there's no "omg i upgraded and it's now broken", there's no "omg i can't believe it's impossible to ship this device with WIFI not working because the friggin license doesn't permit redistribution" - all that and many other issues are just... gone. and for what - an extra $2-3 on the BOM??
so *yes* look at it from that perspective and for goodness sake save yourselves - and users - a world of pain.
[doublepost=1470109800,1470109492][/doublepost]
would it fit *inside* the pyra so it doesn't get knocked off and damage the device?
thinkpenguin are the ones who worked for 2 *years* to walk atheros through the process of releasing the AR9271 firmware under libre licenses. that costs money (to have done, but also to do again). if you'd *like* them to continue doing that, buying from think penguin (instead of the companies that sponge off their hard work) would be sensible, wouldn't you agree? if you don't agree, remember what happened recently with SSL, Bash and with the lead developer of Gentoo over a decade ago.
[doublepost=1470109950][/doublepost]
the name would need to be changed so that there was no possibility of confusion, resulting in average *totally-non-technical* people buying - or worse recommending - the wrong product by mistake. calling it "LibrePyra" doesn't cut it - the name has to be totally distinct and unique. that's why we have two totally different names for the exact same hardware with different OSes.
That and being able to recommend it to friends or relatives without a long list of but..., as onpon4 was trying to explain in the old thread as lukey kindly referred to.
I keep recommending people not to buy anything because I know if they buy something it will spy on them (and me, through them) or have proprietary components that will
eventually prevent upgrades or ... I don't have to tell you. And when trouble comes they'll come to me for help and I really don't want to deal with proprietary stuff.
I go without some functionality often to avoid proprietary stuff, I'm not going to go the extra mile to help a friend stay controlled by others.
Of course you can't stop people installing anything in their systems. But in a world where people don't read licenses, don't read terms of use (don't even read their mortgage)...
and are likely to just read any tutorial and blidly follow steps that bring trouble, the distro at least doing what it can to hide bad software is a welcome requirement.
Distros serve many purposes and one is selection of software, so that users can assume a few criteria are already met simply by being in the repository and don't
have to look at each program with a magnifying glass. It's not only that getting your software from the distro repository means it's been integrated and tested by
a community in a software systems similar to yours, it's also that it was selected because it passed some minimum requirements. When the requiments of a distro
don't match yours is really best to change distro. The pity is the more requirements you share with a group of people the fewer people are in the group, so the less work gets done, so there's a balance to strike there.
So it makes sense RYF includes hardware, software, marketing and documentation. As onpon4 said I don't need all that, for me the most important is hardware that
works without proprietary software and marketing/Documentation that talks of features of the system with 100% free software. The Pyra is not quite explicit in that
but it's close enough considering the few alternatives that I can use it. It's still hard to recommend because people will think they'll have wifi and games and so on,
and they won't even understand the problems proprietary software causes. So I can only recommend it to people I believe understand easily when I say "and wifi,
bluetooth and 3d acceleration need blobs". It's not as I'd like, but it's not hiding any problems either, and people doing it think it's the best solutions, it's not that
they are trying to deceive anyone.
With RYF it would be as simple as saying "just get <distictive name>" and don't care who I'd said it to. Not that the market makes RYF easy, but the criteria are there
for good reasons. Sometimes I'd even wish they were stricter.
No. Your laptop enclosure is better in this. The Pyra can't even fit a camera, let alone an interior cabinet for USB peripherals. It's another form factor.
For the pyra the solution would seem to change the wifi chip inside (in the mainboard, if I'm not mistaken, so it might multiply the PCB options ? there are already
non-modem, US-modem and EU-modem variants, I don't know if diffrent mainboard PCBs or a PCB with different chips on it)
But I joined this forum late. I wasn't here when the wifi chip was decided, I don't know the reasons, and I'm not a hardware designer.
I can't come late asking others to follow my preferences. The device is for a diverse community, but where many people run proprietary code.
I don't think anyone would do it if they had free alternatives, but many are not the kind of people who reject proprietary software to the point of
living without its functionality.
So I can only expect people to keep working hard to make the project a reality, take what I can from it and hope for better next time. Perfection is enemy
of good enough. Maybe when I have it I can improve something and contribute a little, who knows. By now I only contribute ideas or questions.
Your hardware is better in this (RYF, versatility, repairability, power). It is worse in performance, RAM, weight or size (weight is always the less the better, size is not so, diferent sizes fit diffrent needs, and of course one can't compare weights for different sizes as I just did).
Both are still missing many other certifications or endorsements and could get either endorsement, marketing, insight or both from some organisations if they had time to collaborate and explain.
Both are hard enough to pull out as they are to criticize the hard working people behind them or demand even more work, so somebody else might contribute.
No device is going to ever be perfect.
I know (from you at some other time?).
But even risking to seem unfair I welcome redundacy in the supply chain. They're in different continents, take different currencies, ship from different points, are subject to different governments, collect and pay different taxes that are spent in different ways, are different customers of the chip makers...
It's not that it's just, it's that is practical.
. I don't like international commerce so much. In an ideal world you could buy this kind of stuff in your neighboorhood hardware store, even if the shop tenderdidn't meet any chip designer. And you could build and sell a computer without traveling the world.
You keep saying you'll try hard to convince Allwinner to improve in GPL-compliance across products. You surely know others are going to benefit from any improvements you get, and some
customer may buy from them and not you in the future. You probably accept this as a better future than if you don't try to convince them. It's a little the same. It wouldn't surprise me to know
that Think Penguin people are somewhat ok with other vendors profiting from their work.
Makes sense.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
FSF told people to buy it on the newsletter, and they did. Significant boost over the last few days.
At a point where campaigns usually slump off.
Would be interesting to see a plot over time, or a breakdown of wherefrom people caught wind of the news
At a point where campaigns usually slump off.
Would be interesting to see a plot over time, or a breakdown of wherefrom people caught wind of the news
yeah which is really nice.
yeah if i had time i would have set up google tracking stuff... oh wait that violates people's privacy
no there's a graph that crowd supply can do, they keep it private until after, i'll find out what the story is at some point.
diligentcircle
Well-Known Member
One week left... it looks like this is going to be really close!
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