Really cool modular and freedom-respecting computer


i'd consider getting the laptop parts just to build my own laptop (that would be fun). but i don't like the british layout. (i'd end up hitting enter when i wanted to hit \, which is over by z... :(.)

so that leaves me with the card and desktop option, to use as a mini server. but then i'd need a USB to ethernet adapter... not terrible i guess.
 
One week left... it looks like this is going to be really close!

Well @lkcl already said in the arm-netbook list that it is already viable with the amount pledged. It was difficult to foresee people would ask for like 400 computer cards and just 80 laptop/laptop kits, so the 150000$ amount
not reached would not necessarily mean the items requested can't be produced. Maybe they will even if there were no new pledges. Maybe there'll be 60000 $ new pledges in a week. Maybe the campaign fails and that's it.
But they talked mainly of 250 MOQ for the PCMCIA connectors and that's no longer a problem. So there's hope that one way or another it will go on.

i'd consider getting the laptop parts just to build my own laptop (that would be fun). but i don't like the british layout. (i'd end up hitting enter when i wanted to hit \, which is over by z... :(.)

Albert ARIBAUD has worked on a French AZERTY keyboard, so you can always order your prefered keyboard elsewhere and tweak the EC firmware. I would if I wasn't so lazy. I guess ordering a laptop keyboard shouldn't be too hard, even in a local laptop repair shop. Selling the keyboard you get might be harder. Maybe they should add a new kit without the keyboard ? (not sure how much it costs).

so that leaves me with the card and desktop option, to use as a mini server. but then i'd need a USB to ethernet adapter... not terrible i guess.

I think you don't need the desktop for a server, just the A20 card, an OTG-USB and USB-ethernet adapter ? Maybe that triple cable with USB power and data through OTG and an USB - ethernet ? Unless you want two microSD cards for
more storage you could save 40$.
 
I may have missed it, but I'm wondering what the MOQ for the laptop parts is. Probably larger than 83.
 
I may have missed it, but I'm wondering what the MOQ for the laptop parts is. Probably larger than 83.
Good question. I don't know either. But in the past @lkcl said something like the most critical part was the PCMCIA socket. So it looked like the rest of the components had lower MOQs than 250.
Are they lower than 83 ? No idea. On the one hand you typically think yes, laptop parts are going to have high MOQs.

Then you look at the design and find the most likely to have high MOQ in any laptop is the case, but in this design its 3D printed and plywood, so not very much cheaper by the 100s than one alone.

Then there are the PCBs, those might be more expensive at lower volume, I don't know. Since
there are some 428 computer cards that also have PCBs maybe manufacturing a lot of different PCBs, even at different quantities, can be cheaper than any one of them ?

Keyboard, screen and trackpad and I guess cables and USB connectors can be got for laptop repair in small quantities, I don't know about the price difference at volume.
Maybe the price offered already already counts small volumes, that's why it seems high.

The battery is from electrical bicycle. I guess they sell replacement batteries so it can also be got at low volumes ?

Then there's assembly, but at just 14 assembled laptops, worse case @lkcl could do it himself or something (and at 635$ per assembly it can possibly still be outsourced even for 14?).

So not at all sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if 83 was doable for this particular laptop. It's very different from the Pyra.

Edit: I forgot one of the updates. It seems the MOQ for the laptop parts is 250. But if the cards reach 500 then they could bring savings that might cover the loses of producing only 140 laptops instead of 250.

Now there are 411 computer cards + 33 passthrough cards (not sure if they can be added) and 84 laptops.
in 53 days. If I extrapolate linearly (i.e. badly, specially since some options have been there for less than 53 days) it gives one should expect 11 more laptops, 54 more computer cards, and 4 more passthrough cards in the remaining 7 days. That'd be 95 laptops instead of 140 or 250, 465 (+ 37 ?) instead of 500 or 250 cards. I don't know if they were counting the 1340$ in "I love you" donations, but even if you add those, and assume you can save 2800$ when you reach 500 instead of 250 cards, you're $200 in the red after unhealthy dosis of optimism... It seems maybe it is very close as @opon4 said. They need 10 or (more likely) 50 more laptops above the current pace.
 
Last edited:
[...] MOQs [...] MOQs [...] MOQ
I'm annoyed that this problem pops up everytime someone wants to put something cool and useful together (especcialy in the Pyra's production process).
Isn't there some kind of trading/communication between companies going on to reach MOQs? Would be the sensible way to go imho.
For example: GPD uses the anthracite colour in some of their devices that I want for the Pyra but we don't reach MOQ for it, does this really have to be?
 
@pyrat thanks for the info! yeah i suppose i could get away with just the card. but i'm curious -- it looks like it's powered via micro-USB, but with the micro-desktop it says it requires 7V+ to power it. i don't think i have any 7V USB cables/power sources. is 5V also possible with just the card @lkcl ?
 
@pyrat thanks for the info! yeah i suppose i could get away with just the card. but i'm curious -- it looks like it's powered via micro-USB, but with the micro-desktop it says it requires 7V+ to power it. i don't think i have any 7V USB cables/power sources. is 5V also possible with just the card @lkcl ?

I thought it was OK, but now I don't know, after rereading stuff. The EOMA68 spec says sustained power should be under 3.5 W for the card, but the maximum is 10W. At 10W there wouldn't be anything left to power the USB-ethernet thingy. I don't think the A20 card ever comes close to 10W but I can't find the source, so I might be wrong. And I don't know how much power the USB-ethernet may take. The update with a demo of the triple cable uses USB-wifi (must take more power) but it uses a powered USB hub.

If you need a powered USB hub in addtion to the 15$ cable set, then maybe you are better off with the desktop for $55 . The $55 (+ 12$ shipping if outside US) includes a power supply, I think:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/
Micro Desktop Housing for Computer Card
This is a Micro Desktop base unit and power supply unit with a beautiful laser-cut stack of 3mm plywood panels that creates an aesthetically attractive tiny base unit for your Computer Cards. Excludes Computer Card, keyboard, mouse and VGA monitor.

Ships Mar 20, 2017

Free US Shipping / $12 Worldwide
[...]

Standard 5.5 mm DC Jack, powered by anything from 7 V up to 21 V

I think 12 V power supplies are more common, and still would do, but I don't know.
[doublepost=1471589205,1471587072][/doublepost]
I'm annoyed that this problem pops up everytime someone wants to put something cool and useful together (especcialy in the Pyra's production process).
Isn't there some kind of trading/communication between companies going on to reach MOQs? Would be the sensible way to go imho.
For example: GPD uses the anthracite colour in some of their devices that I want for the Pyra but we don't reach MOQ for it, does this really have to be?
I guess the EOMA-68 campaign is an example of the complexity of calculating costs when offering several products. If you add several companies to the mix, with different markets, legislations, taxes, preferences, etc. the coordination might be complex.
But the root cause is capitalism fosters competition, not collaboration. As Eudald Carbonell once said, competent people collaborate, only incompetent people compete. But we haven't enough competent people, our species hasn't evolved enough (yet?).
Hardware manufacturig is very capitalist. Software is very different.
Note: I updated my previous post with... err... more MOQs
 
But the root cause is capitalism fosters competition, not collaboration. As Eudald Carbonell once said, competent people collaborate, only incompetent people compete. But we haven't enough competent people, our species hasn't evolved enough (yet?).
Hardware manufacturig is very capitalist. Software is very different.
I know but how will the human apes evolve past that already? Someone has to start.
 
Isn't that what we are trying to do already?

https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/backers

United kingdom 28
Canada 17
Australia 15
US 164
Ireland 1

Germany 32
France 18
Spain 8
Netherlands 7
Switzerland 5
Belgium 4
Italy 4
Austria 4
Portugal 3
Czech Republic 1
Ukraine 1

Sweden 8
Norway 6
Denmark 5
Finland 3

Argentina 1
Chile 2
Israel 1
Kuwait 1

India 1
Réunion 1

Hong Kong 1

Unknown 9

Doing quite well on home soil and english-speaking countries. Some in south america. No presence in Asia.
 
Last edited:
ost]But the root cause is capitalism fosters competition, not collaboration. As Eudald Carbonell once said, competent people collaborate, only incompetent people compete. But we haven't enough competent people, our species hasn't evolved enough (yet?).
Two (or more) competent people in a friendly competition is a powerhouse of innovation. Collaboration usually leads to compromises and stifles exploration of alternative solutions while competition promotes it.
I am not saying that there are no bad examples on either end of the spectrum, but competition should not be dismissed this easily. A healthy mix is what is needed.
 
The campaign has been gaining momentum the last days. Still needs much more laptop pledges, though.
 
United kingdom 28
Canada 17
Australia 15
US 164
Ireland 1

Germany 32
France 18
Spain 8
Netherlands 7
Switzerland 5
Belgium 4
Italy 4
Austria 4
Portugal 3
Czech Republic 1
Ukraine 1

Sweden 8
Norway 6
Denmark 5
Finland 3

Argentina 1
Chile 2
Israel 1
Kuwait 1

India 1
Réunion 1

Hong Kong 1

Unknown 9

Doing quite well on home soil and english-speaking countries. Some in south america. No presence in Asia.

Well, almost no presence from Asia, since there's Hong Kong, India, Kuwait, Israel (total 4 backers). But South America is just 3 (Argentina and Chile).
Note that there's also no presence from Africa (except 1 backer from Réunion) . (and not much from Oceania, just 15 from Australia).
There are 9 unkonwns + whoever chose not to be listed (444 people for 1200 pledges, fewer pledges when you extracted these data, and one person may get 2 or 3 or more pledges, so possibly few people not listed?).

Funny thing is that most electronics are built in Asia and end up dumped in Africa, and people there don't seem to care much about overproduction and waste
(or more likely, most can't join even if they'd like).

We can speculate as much as we want, but in the end it's about purchasing power (so North America and Europe overrepresented) and near monolinguism (most information in English and the rest in only European languages, as far as I can tell, only British keyboard offered and French keyboard controller software offered by a contributor). Also it is much easier from people in the USA to order from crowdsupply (shipping costs, bank transfer costs if they choose that, no customs or taxes, no currency fluctuation risk).
 
i'd consider getting the laptop parts just to build my own laptop (that would be fun). but i don't like the british layout. (i'd end up hitting enter when i wanted to hit \, which is over by z... :(.)

i'm sure we'll be able to find you a different chicony keyboard - depending on how much time there is as well as how many other people are involved who want different keyboard layouts i might have to leave you to sort out the firmware (or at least help out with the keyboard mapping). certainly i was surprised and delighted that albert just got on with the job of creating AZERTY keyboard support https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/french-keyboard-support
[doublepost=1471664762,1471664009][/doublepost]
i
so that leaves me with the card and desktop option, to use as a mini server. but then i'd need a USB to ethernet adapter... not terrible i guess.

you can track down that "OTG Powered Host" cable - it's on amazon for $1.63. you'll need a standard tablet charger. and a USB2 powered hub. the only thing to watch out for is that the musb driver is part-software, part-hardware (i learned this recently) so if you plug in a mouse, keyboard and USB-ETH you should be okay, but any more than that and it might go a bit funny.

I think you don't need the desktop for a server, just the A20 card, an OTG-USB and USB-ethernet adapter ? Maybe that triple cable with USB power and data through OTG and an USB - ethernet ?

yeah - just see above

I may have missed it, but I'm wondering what the MOQ for the laptop parts is. Probably larger than 83.

it's around 100 for each of the major components that are unusual (the 4.3in CTP+LCD, the e-bike battery) and it's 250 for the PCMCIA socket from amphenol. that is why i added the PCMCIA breakout board, we're now at a total of 331 for breakout + laptops + micro-desktop YAY

there are some 428 computer cards that also have PCBs maybe manufacturing a lot of different PCBs,

yeahhhh, i'm hoping that's the case, too. it's actually two factories, one run by my friend mike, and his uncle has the BGA and multi-layer PCB factory, so we can split between the two just after christmas.


is 5V also possible with just the card

5V is *REQUIRED* by the Card - don't *EVER* put anything other than *EXACTLY* 5.0v into an EOMA68 compliant device, okay? there's a regulated PMIC (a Richtek RT8288A) on the micro-desktop PCB, which takes in anywhere between 4.5v and 21v and can be used to output a strictly regulated 5.0V at up to 4.0 A. you need a couple of volts over the output to get that 5V, so anywhere between 7V to 21V it is.
 
Last edited:
i'm sure we'll be able to find you a different chicony keyboard - depending on how much time there is as well as how many other people are involved who want different keyboard layouts i might have to leave you to sort out the firmware (or at least help out with the keyboard mapping). certainly i was surprised and delighted that albert just got on with the job of creating AZERTY keyboard support https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/french-keyboard-support
How difficult is the firmware thing ? I first thought it was very difficult, since you had to break one keyboard to learn the wiring. Then reading Albert it seemed more doable (because he was already an embedded developer before he started this), but I haven't looked at the code. I understand he did not only adapt the firmare to AZERTY but optimize some things in the existing code. The former needs to be redone for a new keyboard but not the later. So, is there a table somewhere one needs to edit or is it more complex ?.

Is it feasible for someone (I'm not saying you) to write some code that runs in the STM32 in the laptop (once they're ready) and has some console interface (to the trackpad or LCD, it doesn't matter) and takes some keyboard definition file from linux or X11 and keeps asking the user to press each key in sequence, filling out a data structure, and then dumping it on a file so that the file can then be incorporated in a make script to build firmware for the new keyboard ? That would be simple enough for most advanced users. The kind of tinkerer that can't code much but is able to compile and install programs. Or is it more like each keyboard is going to be so differetn you'll need to break one and map the wiring ? Or it depends on which keyboards you pick ? If some effort could be put (by someone) into making it easier for others to support new keyboards that would be a easy but not too easy project that would help build community, I think.

I think most users might be interested in changing the keyboard for a local one (even British one and USA one are different, right?). A big keyboard is very convenient if it is exactly the layout you are used to. If you need to relearn to type it's a nuisance. In fact I believe some countries laws forbid to sell laptops with a standard keyboard that is not the local layout. I heard so, long ago, maybe it is no longer the case. In the Pyra you probably need to relearn anyway because of the key size and thumbs and all. But in a full size keyboard, it could be awkward. And maybe more people would pledge if that possibility was advertised. But I don't really know how difficult it is. I think some writeup on exactly the effort required and the support offered (even if explicitely none because for a single provider the multiplication of layouts would be troublesome) might make existing backers happier and maybe attract new users. Just mind you that most people is likely going to want their own layout, so I doubt you can do it for just a couple of backers (let's not have another USA does not pay shipping and the rest of the world have odd flat rates).

If you really just need like 15 more laptops in a week, maybe it is not worth the effort, just increase British marketing. Otherwise, maybe think it through and publish something soonish (the seven days are fewer for some type of payments since there may be delays in processing or crowdsupply checking they got the money). You could say you give the option with such and such pledges to get a keyboard sent to you in a different layout (check which ones you can get before hand and give a list, or leave it open), with or without firmware support. Or you could simply add a PIY kit for 410 $ or 420 $ or whatever it is without any keyboard. And/or add a PFY kit for 470 or 460$ without a keyboard. Maybe that's the only option actionable fast enough ? Then people might go to their local laptop repair shop and ask if they can get a compatible keyboard in their local layout. Or maybe scavenge one from hardware waste (more unlikely to be compatible).
 
Would be sweet to move the trackpad and fit an extended 40% to this. Is there anywhere that has dimensions of the laptop case?

Would be very handy to know how big the storage compartments and area beneath the keyboard is.
 
Would be sweet to move the trackpad and fit an extended 40% to this. Is there anywhere that has dimensions of the laptop case?
It should be deducible from the STL files, I guess, but I'm not good at 3D stuff...
I don't understand your idea well. You mean moe the trackap to one side and increase the storage compartment ? I don't know how ergonomic that would be, but there's also estructural constraints,
it possibly needs a central axis to hold it together?

Would be very handy to know how big the storage compartments and area beneath the keyboard is.

From the crowdsupply page
Special internal compartment (easily accessible, 8 mm x 90 mm x 60 mm)

From some PCB images, the USB ports are on the left side, near the user. One faces outside and two face inside, from the same PCB along the left axis.
I can't find the image now. Look at this video.

I don't know if most USB gear fits in only 8mm height. Maybe it can be modded to make it higher, but it should be towads the low side, not to break the screen when closed. A ltittle weird.
 
i'm sure we'll be able to find you a different chicony keyboard - depending on how much time there is as well as how many other people are involved who want different keyboard layouts i might have to leave you to sort out the firmware (or at least help out with the keyboard mapping). certainly i was surprised and delighted that albert just got on with the job of creating AZERTY keyboard support https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/french-keyboard-support

i can probably deal with firmware (as long as the other version is available for comparison/testing, and i know how to flash it --- i've been working a bit with an stm32f4, but i suppose i should look into that french keyboard video). the bigger issue is -- is the keyboard part something i can buy from a laptop keyboard reseller or something?

5V is *REQUIRED* by the Card - don't *EVER* put anything other than *EXACTLY* 5.0v into an EOMA68 compliant device, okay? there's a regulated PMIC (a Richtek RT8288A) on the micro-desktop PCB, which takes in anywhere between 4.5v and 21v and can be used to output a strictly regulated 5.0V at up to 4.0 A. you need a couple of volts over the output to get that 5V, so anywhere between 7V to 21V it is.

ok, great. not sure if that's mentioned anywhere on the main crowdsupply page.
 
How difficult is the firmware thing ? I first thought it was very difficult, since you had to break one keyboard to learn the wiring. Then reading Albert it seemed more doable (because he was already an embedded developer before he started this), but I haven't looked at the code. I understand he did not only adapt the firmare to AZERTY but optimize some things in the existing code. The former needs to be redone for a new keyboard but not the later. So, is there a table somewhere one needs to edit or is it more complex ?.

yep it's really that simple. there's a table of 8 x 16 values, you just need to go through pressing each key in turn, note the row/value that's outputted from some debug info, then use that afterwards to fill in the values, recompile and you're done.

i can probably deal with firmware (as long as the other version is available for comparison/testing, and i know how to flash it --- i've been working a bit with an stm32f4, but i suppose i should look into that french keyboard video). the bigger issue is -- is the keyboard part something i can buy from a laptop keyboard reseller or something?

yyyep. http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/pcbs/pcb2/ you'll see the part numbers DO NOT BUY FROM AJPARTS OR ANY OF ITS ALIASES ON EBAY. they have a SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT track record of FAILING to provide the correct keyboard.

if you've been doing stm32f4 development, you'll do fine. there's a picture on the news page somewhere which contains the wiring, but you can look up which USB+ and USB- are in the STM32F072 datasheet and/or other online locations and/or in the PCB2 PDF schematics. bear in mind we use libopencm3.
[doublepost=1471737363,1471731777][/doublepost]
It should be deducible from the STL files, I guess, but I'm not good at 3D stuff...
I don't understand your idea well. You mean moe the trackap to one side and increase the storage compartment ? I don't know how ergonomic that would be, but there's also estructural constraints,
it possibly needs a central axis to hold it together?

i can tell you right now it's a frickin lot of work. it took over a year to develop the casework. just moving the trackpad to one side requires modifying a whopping SIX parts (at least), which is around six weeks of work. i simply haven't got time.

From the crowdsupply page


From some PCB images, the USB ports are on the left side, near the user. One faces outside and two face inside, from the same PCB along the left axis.
I can't find the image now. Look at this video.

I don't know if most USB gear fits in only 8mm height. Maybe it can be modded to make it higher, but it should be towads the low side, not to break the screen when closed. A ltittle weird.

it might be up to 9mm somewhere in the middle of the compartment. if nothing else you can take the plastic housing off of WIFI dongles.
 
Back
Top