Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
How is that "the original"? That's clearly not a picture of displayed on a TV.
Release Picodrive 1.80
- Thread starter notaz
- Start date
Ah, notaz never disappoints.
32X, full screen, cheats. Well played.
I am having some trouble getting Virtua Racing 32X up to full speed though. I am assuming my overclock isn't working and that others got this going full speed?
Trying to set up overclock through an ovr and raising max overclock in emu settings, but seemingly no effect. I'm also not getting the launch overclock dialogue when starting in minimenu. I suppose this is a minimenu question, but how do you re-enable that dialogue? I know you have to edit or delete some file somewhere.
32X, full screen, cheats. Well played.
I am having some trouble getting Virtua Racing 32X up to full speed though. I am assuming my overclock isn't working and that others got this going full speed?
Trying to set up overclock through an ovr and raising max overclock in emu settings, but seemingly no effect. I'm also not getting the launch overclock dialogue when starting in minimenu. I suppose this is a minimenu question, but how do you re-enable that dialogue? I know you have to edit or delete some file somewhere.
TitanUranus
Active Member
DaveC said:
Don't get me wrong, I know how important it can feel to have things exactly right, but that is stunningly anal! I fear people moaning about minor niggles like this may be why notaz was reluctant to release this until it was "perfect". I'm personally glad it's released as it is, even though I don't have my pandora yet it's nice to see works in progress.
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Hardly "anal" unless you are looking at on a bad monitor and can't see the significant difference. Look at the rock area, the brownish shades are almost gone. That is allot of information lost. This is an example, other games with darker shades have the same problem. It is not about "exactly right" it isn't just a shade off it is several. If it was never mentioned there would be no chance it would ever be fixed.TitanUranus said:DaveC said:
Don't get me wrong, I know how important it can feel to have things exactly right, but that is stunningly anal! I fear people moaning about minor niggles like this may be why notaz was reluctant to release this until it was "perfect". I'm personally glad it's released as it is, even though I don't have my pandora yet it's nice to see works in progress.
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
I still want to know what you're actually comparing it with. Because it appears to be either a previous version of Picodrive for another platform or another Genesis emulator. notaz clearly intentionally changed the color gamut to more closely match what a Genesis would look like on a TV, which is what game developers will have designed for. This might be a less ideal color space but that isn't really the point. You can't actually expect him to change it back just because you think it looked better in some game the old way. You have to offer something more tangible than that.
I changed the color generation in Temper after version 0.7 too, fortunately it subjectively looks better most of the time so I haven't gotten complaints (actually haven't gotten any comments at all strangely enough)
I changed the color generation in Temper after version 0.7 too, fortunately it subjectively looks better most of the time so I haven't gotten complaints (actually haven't gotten any comments at all strangely enough)
Exophase said:
I am comparing it to how it looked on the hardware on a properly adjusted TV or RGB nonitor, plus various screenshots and PC based emu. What it is adjusted to now does not look like a "TV" unless it was poorly adjusted or broken.
It isn't just "some game I think looked better" it is all of them you just won't notice as much on cartoony stuff like Sonic where most of the colors are bright. I can't obviously post screenshots of every game that is effected, I just picked one.
If in doubt at all I suggest going with what is logically better (shows more of the graphics) and what looks better. You can't reasonably say that the screenshot on the right looks better nor does it make sense that they would draw graphics in all games where shades on the lower end are almost gone (they didn't, I remember and also have some experience with doing pixel art). Even if the levels theoretically match hardware we aren't displaying on a CRT we are displaying on an LCD and tweaks need to be made to make it look right on that. Further the Pandora LCD tends to ghost more with darker colors so the way it is now makes that problem even worse with colors that are darker than they should be. Then there is the fact that Notaz himself said that the colors weren't right in the emulator.
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TitanUranus
Active Member
DaveC said:
The information is NOT lost, it is displayed correctly, just a different shade of correct. Trust me on this, it is anal, maybe just a different degree of anal to what you consider anal. I have no problem with someone pointing it out, just I don't think your pictures higlight a problem (very well). I have many older systems, including several consoles/computers of the exact same model, and they DO NOT reproduce colour identically. Also, isn't it a little arrogant to assume that if my monitor isn't showing something exactly as your eyeballs would prefer, it is a shitty one? Maybe I set it up different, maybe I set it up better.
Anyone who demands a specific level of accuracy impossible for an inaccurate source must surely be considered anal in my book. I can be really anal about things, I'm a perfectionist - it's not an insult, just an obserbvation. The only problem is when you fail to realise or aknowledge it, and irritate others as a consequence.
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For years I played SNES/Genesis on about a 15" TV that was so blurry that once when I rented a casino game for SNES, it was simply unplayable because I couldn't read the cards. Me and my friend went back to his house so we could play it on their new expensive TV.
All these emus look spectacular compared to how many (most?) people actually played these games.
All these emus look spectacular compared to how many (most?) people actually played these games.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
DaveC said:
Right now it's just your word that it is further from what a proper TV image looks like, the burden of proof lies on you. Posting screenshots of other emulators is a waste of time.
DaveC said:
It's completely subjective, the screenshot on the right doesn't look worse to me nor do the lower shades look "almost gone"; it doesn't matter if one palette is superior to the other, what matters is what the Genesis can show and notaz already showed you that its video DAC is not very linear. Game developers would have typically picked colors accordingly. I looked around for screenshots off a TV of CV Bloodlines but couldn't find a lot.. at the very least, the status bar color looks closer in the new shot.
DaveC said:
Making it look right on an LCD vs a CRT may need an appropriate gamma ramp but that still doesn't say that the current color scheme is more or less accurate. Likewise, notaz saying it's still not accurate doesn't say it either, pay attention to the fact that he said the old version also wasn't right. There's probably no real "right" and if you look at the situation with NES color emulation it's a mess, but you can probably get closer to some sort of average.
I doubt notaz is interested in purposefully making the colors darker to make ghosting better on Pandora but I guess we'll see.
Right now talk is cheap so you really need to show shots (on a very high quality camera, of course) from a properly adjusted TV to make any kind of case.
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notaz
Certified Guru
Ok I took my time and plugged my MegaDrive to a TV card. I'd love to make use of RGB capture card instead but those are prohibitively expensive.
Here is framebuffer dump directly from pandora:
Older build:
It looks darker on pandora itself but that's a problem with it's LCD and the LCD gamma should be tuned further instead.
Your comparison again, for reference:
Except of seeing that both old and new builds are wrong (that makes all PC emus wrong too I guess) I don't really know how to calibrate this. The reference image heavily depends on TV card settings. I haven't seen anyone doing RGB captures from the real thing either. The old build might look better to you but it's levels are wrong compared to levels of pixels with shadow/hilight operators applied.
Here is framebuffer dump directly from pandora:
Older build:
It looks darker on pandora itself but that's a problem with it's LCD and the LCD gamma should be tuned further instead.
Your comparison again, for reference:
DaveC said:
Except of seeing that both old and new builds are wrong (that makes all PC emus wrong too I guess) I don't really know how to calibrate this. The reference image heavily depends on TV card settings. I haven't seen anyone doing RGB captures from the real thing either. The old build might look better to you but it's levels are wrong compared to levels of pixels with shadow/hilight operators applied.
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TitanUranus
Active Member
notaz said:
Wow, Lithuania has real megadrives! Personally I'd just leave it as it is for now - spend your time productively on coding rather than arseing around with megadrives and TV cards on some wild goose chase for a perceptual pinnacle of accuracy that can never be achieved. Refine it later when you have finished all other stuff you want to do, maybe some time in your extreme old age, shortly after you've taken up bunjee-jumping and developed a crack addiction. For now concentrate on doing what makes you happy today.
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notaz
Certified Guru
Sure, it was very popular here (it never surpassed NES clones though) and I (mis)spent good portion of my childhood playing one. That's the main reason I work on PicoDrive these days.TitanUranus said:
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Well, I'd like to help here, since I love as most accurate emulation as possible, too.
We got some TV Gamma LCD setting in the Pandora already (it's not the default setting) where I tried to be more close to a real TV.
It wasn't an accurate measuring, just a subjective one based on the color bars, but it looks okay for me with most emulators and it looks more like notaz' recorded screenshot from the actual MegaDrive, so we're not that far off.
To make the LCD gamma more like a TV gamma, I could use proper tools (got a couple of waveforms, vectorscopes and calibrated monitors at work) if I could have the same picture that the Pandora displays when using the gamma tool,
I will then create an LCD gamma that matches as closely as possible to a real matched CRT.
When that is done, I could help making the MegaDrive gamut correct... though I'd need a version of PicoDrive where I can change the gamma values. I would then report back the proper values.
They would only work properly when using the TV Gamma settings in LCD Manager though.
We got some TV Gamma LCD setting in the Pandora already (it's not the default setting) where I tried to be more close to a real TV.
It wasn't an accurate measuring, just a subjective one based on the color bars, but it looks okay for me with most emulators and it looks more like notaz' recorded screenshot from the actual MegaDrive, so we're not that far off.
To make the LCD gamma more like a TV gamma, I could use proper tools (got a couple of waveforms, vectorscopes and calibrated monitors at work) if I could have the same picture that the Pandora displays when using the gamma tool,
I will then create an LCD gamma that matches as closely as possible to a real matched CRT.
When that is done, I could help making the MegaDrive gamut correct... though I'd need a version of PicoDrive where I can change the gamma values. I would then report back the proper values.
They would only work properly when using the TV Gamma settings in LCD Manager though.
TitanUranus
Active Member
What a bunch of geeky nutters Pandora has managed to assemble. I am proud to consider myself among them. Though Evildragon, forgive me for asking this, but will you be farting around with those fancy toys (vectorscopes/calibrated monitors etc...) in your spare time? Or has the pinpoint perfection of a megadrive colour pallete become a high priority in these busy times?
Esn
(:";
Notaz, I think it's awesome that you took heed of DaveC's comment and compared it yourself. Thanks!
Well the newest build looks the darkest of the lot, and futher from the top picture than the rest. The previous one at least had the shades a bit closer and you could see the brown on the rocks better, but they are close to the same. The frame dumps have the shadow detail crushed too. Even that purple bar at the top is almost pulled to black. The text for the score has a bright spot in the center but then falls off to the point you can't see the edges. It is not just a dark LCD as you say or ALL shades would be dark together, but smooth. If you look at the rocks in the example the tan highlights are as bright as the other builds/example but the shadow detail is crushed. This is because the gamma curve is suppressing darker shades for some reason.notaz said:Ok I took my time and plugged my MegaDrive to a TV card. I'd love to make use of RGB capture card instead but those are prohibitively expensive.
Your comparison again, for reference:
DaveC said:
Except of seeing that both old and new builds are wrong (that makes all PC emus wrong too I guess) I don't really know how to calibrate this. The reference image heavily depends on TV card settings. I haven't seen anyone doing RGB captures from the real thing either. The old build might look better to you but it's levels are wrong compared to levels of pixels with shadow/hilight operators applied.
In the example I did I tuned the colors on the second image in a paint program to match how they look on the actual LCD, not a frame dump as that looks a bit different. Try it on your Pandora unless you have custom settings it pretty much looks like my second pic(I just checked again). I have the LCD gamma as default which is just a linear ramp. I have the brightness set to one notch below the brightest. Yes I can tune the LCD gamma to improve but then it will screw up all of the other software that doesn't need a gamma change. I don't know if it is possible for the emulator to read Pandora custom gamma settings. Even some kind of script that loads a setting then returns it back after you exit would work.
I am not sure why you say the older one was more "wrong" when it looks better. It looks like what the shadow operator does is get rid of shadow detail. I am not sure how that is better, that looks more different than your first pic (although I admit is a bit TOO washed out). The top image doesn't crush shadow detail like the Pandora build does (used the rocks, score text again as example).
If I did do an LCD gamma tweak so that it looks better could you use those numbers for your table? I know you couldn't do it directly but maybe they could be used as a reference?
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TitanUranus
Active Member
DaveC said:
I'm impressed at your restraint this time DaveC, thought you might request Notaz disassemble his real megadrive and reassemble it with some modified componentss that don't blur the screen so much! Just kidding, please don't take it personally.
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sebt3
homebrew player (P. & C.)
^^ You just don't understand...
DaveC didn't force notaz to plug his megadrive. Notaz is still free of will : he don't charge a penny for this
Try to see it the other way around : once your software is DaveC compliant, it will please anyone around. Thus making his comments valuable as it somewhat drive the quality of the software on the scene...
DaveC didn't force notaz to plug his megadrive. Notaz is still free of will : he don't charge a penny for this
Try to see it the other way around : once your software is DaveC compliant, it will please anyone around. Thus making his comments valuable as it somewhat drive the quality of the software on the scene...
