Pandora's Gui? Will It Even Have One?

[Kramy]

How very trusting of you. That's exactly what shouldn't be allowed.

Give me one good reason that isn't also a valid reason against package managers.

They don't automatically do it. They require a password to be entered.

But this solution is bad, poorly thought out, and likely to be exploited by malware writers:
-Let the .pnd file decide if it wants to auto-start. Let it control whether there's even a popup.

If malware is getting into the official repository, you're already screwed.

Who said it came from the official repository?

http://artraid.com/a...sqdef/#download

Appears to be linked to the official file archive, but I recall at some point that it wasn't. The map packs are still hosted on his own server.

Anyway, I can think of several reasons for downloading something off a random website:
1) The file archive is less up to date.
2) The program was just released and not approved in the archive yet, but was released on the forums.
3) The program is a beta, released on the forums.
4) The program is commercial, and not in the official file archive, and may never be.
5) The program has malware in it, so was only uploaded to its own site...
6) ...

 

[midna25]

I'm just realizing that without devs the Pandora is nothing. To give you an analogy: Without the baker there is no bread. If you get all fussy at the devs because everything is not the way YOU want it, then you will drive them away. I am on no such high horse, because I am not making any requests. I am not asking for this system I proposed to be implemented. I am merely suggesting it as a possible solution to dflemstr's problem.

I realised that a while ago. Some users were talking about weather the Pandora project would stay alive. One said something like "If the whole thing goes down after the first batch, there'll only be a couple thousand lucky Pandora users in the whole world."

But then I got to thinking... No. They would be the unluckiest ones. Because the whole project would die. No software, no anything. You'd have the hardware, but nobody would develop for it. Yikes.

 

[Vorporeal]

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

Couldn't you just have .*rc files that are stored in specific directories on the SD that get added whenever you want to add something new to start up with the file system? That way, the system starts up and checks for the existence of said files, and uses the ones it finds. They wouldn't be the whole settings file, but any additions that you need added to that settings file. (Hell, it could be the whole settings file if you think that would go over better)

Good luck incorporating that into the PND standard
AKA, no, it's not that easy I'm afraid.

Why not? You could always add into the standard the existence of an autorun-type script that is (optionally) present in the PND. When the daemon finds and "loads" the PND file, it could always run the autorun script at the end of the loading process. Not too difficult.

 

[typs lik dis]

It would still be a beautiful UMPC. Who says none of the few thousand, not to mention anyone else, would be interested in developing software for themselves? Don't forget the vast Angstrom repositories. They'd still have gotten their money's worth, I think.

 

[WizardStan]

They don't automatically do it. They require a password to be entered.

Password or simple question, it amounts to the same thing. You have to trust your source. There's nothing stopping an install from a standard distro from trouncing all over your system once you've entered your password, except the faith that someone is paying attention to what goes into the repository.

Who said it came from the official repository?

We have to compare apples to apples. If we're talking about official repositories for standard distros, then we have to be equally fair about the Pandora file sources. If your argument is that there will be developers not putting their PND files into the official repository, then you have to also accept that there are DEB and RPM files that you can randomly download as well that could contain questionable material.

 

[Kramy]

They don't automatically do it. They require a password to be entered.

Password or simple question, it amounts to the same thing. You have to trust your source. There's nothing stopping an install from a standard distro from trouncing all over your system once you've entered your password, except the faith that someone is paying attention to what goes into the repository.

Not really. If you let the PND executable control whether it asks the simple question, then your question is worth squat, and can be skipped with ease, while the password is still a password. (which requires interaction)

Who said it came from the official repository?

We have to compare apples to apples. If we're talking about official repositories for standard distros, then we have to be equally fair about the Pandora file sources. If your argument is that there will be developers not putting their PND files into the official repository, then you have to also accept that there are DEB and RPM files that you can randomly download as well that could contain questionable material.

No, a random .deb file off the internet is still going to ask me for a password, which makes it an unmeasurable amount more secure than just running whatever crap I download without asking me.

Why are we still arguing? If you read my posts from the start, you'll see my issue has been letting the .pnd have control over the prompt, and having a silent autorun feature. Both of those are easily provable as bad ideas. Look up Sony BMG, for an example.

 

[WizardStan]

No, a random .deb file off the internet is still going to ask me for a password, which makes it an unmeasurable amount more secure than just running whatever crap I download without asking me.

Then don't give the PND control. We somehow make it so the kernel creates the file and a password needs to be asked. Or maybe there's another way around the problem.

No, a random .deb file off the internet is still going to ask me for a password, which makes it an unmeasurable amount more secure than just running whatever crap I download without asking me.

Since you always have to enter your password to install a deb file anyway, the fact that it's asking for a password is no clue that it's doing anything suspicious. You still need to trust that your source isn't trying to screw you over. In fact, I'd argue that deb files are less secure, since giving it your password, it gains root and has full power to trounce all over your entire system. The executable is still being run as a user and only the ability to write to user space. We could even restrict it further and say it only has ability to write to the root of the SD card, or even further by saying it can only edit one specific file at the root of the SD card.

Why are we still arguing? If you read my posts from the start, you'll see my issue has been letting the .pnd have control over the prompt, and having a silent autorun feature. Both of those are easily provable as bad ideas. Look up Sony BMG, for an example.

We aren't arguing. I'm trying to brainstorm, and you (and df) keep blocking me without actually adding anything. If you think it's a bad idea, feel free to suggest something else. I am trying to help find a way around shortcomings dflemstr has with the PND format. If you honestly can't think of ways to improve the suggestion, that's fine, keep pointing out flaws, but don't expect that just dropping the subject will make the problems go away.

 

[dflemstr]

We aren't arguing. I'm trying to brainstorm, and you (and df) keep blocking me without actually adding anything. If you think it's a bad idea, feel free to suggest something else. I am trying to help find a way around shortcomings dflemstr has with the PND format. If you honestly can't think of ways to improve the suggestion, that's fine, keep pointing out flaws, but don't expect that just dropping the subject will make the problems go away.

Well, I've been kinda busy lately and have generally posted very messy posts since my free time has been limited, and thus thet haven't been very constructive, sorry bout that.

I think that the solution I mentioned in this other thread would be kinda sustainable. I'll edit the post a little to make it more clear what I mean.

 

[Squidge]

Has anyone thought about uninstalling? If anything writes or modifies anywhere on any medium, then how do those changes get reversed?

The install a PND, you just throw the file onto your SD card. The daemon finds the PND and shows the icons/etc. To uninstall you delete the PND.

If applications start creating/altering various files in the root of the sd card, how will those changes be reversed when the application is deleted by deleting the PND? The last thing we want is apps like on Windows that try and detect changes an installer has made so it can uninstall it, then a day later you find out some other app doesn't work correctly any more.

 

[dflemstr]

Has anyone thought about uninstalling? If anything writes or modifies anywhere on any medium, then how do those changes get reversed?

The install a PND, you just throw the file onto your SD card. The daemon finds the PND and shows the icons/etc. To uninstall you delete the PND.

If applications start creating/altering various files in the root of the sd card, how will those changes be reversed when the application is deleted by deleting the PND? The last thing we want is apps like on Windows that try and detect changes an installer has made so it can uninstall it, then a day later you find out some other app doesn't work correctly any more.

Yes, that what's been bugging me for the last 20 or so posts.
See my last post for a suggestion how this could be avoided

 

[multiplex]

If I may be so rude, it sounds like you're overengineering a solution to a non-problem that goes far beyond what the .pnd format was intended to handle. (And the pnd plans sounded more than ambitious enough by themselves the last time I saw it explained.) I think they would do well to keep it tuned for drag-and-drop onto the card installation of simple click-to-run applications like games and media players. Maybe a complementary format could be made for libraries later, if static linking turned out too unwieldy, but we'll see what works out.

If you're interested in that kind of stuff though, you may want to check out Slax, a Slackware-based distro that uses application modules mounted with Aufs. For Apache and such, it simply starts any init scripts in rc.d when a module is activated.

 

[God Ginrai]

I'm just realizing that without devs the Pandora is nothing. To give you an analogy: Without the baker there is no bread. If you get all fussy at the devs because everything is not the way YOU want it, then you will drive them away. I am on no such high horse, because I am not making any requests. I am not asking for this system I proposed to be implemented. I am merely suggesting it as a possible solution to dflemstr's problem.

You have the attitude of an annoying linux dev. "Users can suck it - only the developer matters! Now shove aside and let me auto-install my crap on YOUR [phone, PC]"

Well, that's fine, but please mark any software you release as "AUTOMATICALLY INSTALLS" so I can stay the hell away from it.

I agree that developers are important, but they (more than anyone else) should recognize when something may be prone to exploits, and isn't a necessary feature.

I'm just a Linux user who has had a GP2X since it came out. I learned with linux, and especially the GP2X that if you want something and no devs want to code it, you better be able to code it or offer enough money to make a competent dev change their mind.The Pandora will not have applications unless devs wish to code for it.

Oh, and Please mark any posts you make with "IDIOT" so I can "stay the hell away from it." 0

We aren't arguing. I'm trying to brainstorm, and you (and df) keep blocking me without actually adding anything. If you think it's a bad idea, feel free to suggest something else. I am trying to help find a way around shortcomings dflemstr has with the PND format. If you honestly can't think of ways to improve the suggestion, that's fine, keep pointing out flaws, but don't expect that just dropping the subject will make the problems go away.

Well, I've been kinda busy lately and have generally posted very messy posts since my free time has been limited, and thus thet haven't been very constructive, sorry bout that.

I think that the solution I mentioned in this other thread would be kinda sustainable. I'll edit the post a little to make it more clear what I mean.

I like this way as well.

Has anyone thought about uninstalling? If anything writes or modifies anywhere on any medium, then how do those changes get reversed?

The install a PND, you just throw the file onto your SD card. The daemon finds the PND and shows the icons/etc. To uninstall you delete the PND.

If applications start creating/altering various files in the root of the sd card, how will those changes be reversed when the application is deleted by deleting the PND? The last thing we want is apps like on Windows that try and detect changes an installer has made so it can uninstall it, then a day later you find out some other app doesn't work correctly any more.

There's a couple ways of doing this. The way I think is most appropriate is for the PNDs to track their changes in a master log on the SD card, which then would be scanned by the system, and when it finds PNDs that aren't on the SD listed there, it reverses the necessary changes and removes that listing from the master log.

-God Ginrai

 

[renegadechic]

wasnt sure whether to start a new blog on this, but since its on the subject...

in the light of the latest news regarding E17 and cpasjuste's GUI i would definitely like to see where things are at with that now, especially the latter. also what can we espect from the minimal mode? will it just be for games or should we also expect some kind of media playing capacity (i know we will need to DL our own players, i'm just interested to know if its usable? should we expect a 3rd super low powered mode for just music at a later date?

 

[God Ginrai]

wasnt sure whether to start a new blog on this, but since its on the subject...

in the light of the latest news regarding E17 and cpasjuste's GUI i would definitely like to see where things are at with that now, especially the latter. also what can we espect from the minimal mode? will it just be for games or should we also expect some kind of media playing capacity (i know we will need to DL our own players, i'm just interested to know if its usable? should we expect a 3rd super low powered mode for just music at a later date?

cpasjuste's GUI can run any PND, whether it is a game or a media player. Aside from that, I'm not really sure what else it can do.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kramy]

Oh, and Please mark any posts you make with "IDIOT" so I can "stay the hell away from it." 0

See, that's not nice.

There's a couple ways of doing this. The way I think is most appropriate is for the PNDs to track their changes in a master log on the SD card, which then would be scanned by the system, and when it finds PNDs that aren't on the SD listed there, it reverses the necessary changes and removes that listing from the master log.

-God Ginrai

Which is 100% exploitable by anything malicious.

If there's some sort of .pnd installer app, it could track changes and store them in a secure location, but giving any power at all to the .pnd to modify the system(or *gasp* relying on it to track its own changes) is just asking for trouble.

I'm just a Linux user who has had a GP2X since it came out. I learned with linux, and especially the GP2X that if you want something and no devs want to code it, you better be able to code it or offer enough money to make a competent dev change their mind.The Pandora will not have applications unless devs wish to code for it.

True. Devs like Pickle are invaluable, but I don't think he's doing anything that requires automatic installation?

Anyway, I'm not really worried about that. I rather enjoy hacking at things.

As long as Java (of some sort) is supported, I can create whatever apps I need. I wrote my own calculator and file searcher apps, because all others that I've found for any OS are hopelessly inadequate. Most file searchers deal with finding all results, rather than the proper results. What I can't do is create my own emulator, or a fun 2D RPG. Those, I would love to get my hands on, but unless I'm mistaken they don't require automatic installation.

/IDIOT

 

[deadfishes]

Hey,

How clean will the Pandora be to operate? I recently dropped the 205/330 on the pre-order, and I am kind of scared of having to learn Linux command lines to do stuff like make VOIP phone calls over my 3G modem or just boot up an emulator. It would be nice to know what kind of file management software it's going to come with, if installation / downloading stuff will be similar to ubuntu, or more similar to an iphone ect.. I've seen it running some sort of Gnome desktop, but am getting a little sick at my stomach thinking about having to open up a terminal window. While I rather rowh rowh fight the powah with yall, if it is just a linux pocket pc with some D pads hooked on and not really much of a game system, I might be disappointed enough to sell it and put it towards a 3GS.

 

[dflemstr]

Hey,

How clean will the Pandora be to operate? I recently dropped the 205/330 on the pre-order, and I am kind of scared of having to learn Linux command lines to do stuff like make VOIP phone calls over my 3G modem or just boot up an emulator. It would be nice to know what kind of file management software it's going to come with, if installation / downloading stuff will be similar to ubuntu, or more similar to an iphone ect.. I've seen it running some sort of Gnome desktop, but am getting a little sick at my stomach thinking about having to open up a terminal window. While I rather rowh rowh fight the powah with yall, if it is just a linux pocket pc with some D pads hooked on and not really much of a game system, I might be disappointed enough to sell it and put it towards a 3GS.

Well, I'm the kind of guy who actually finds it EASIER to use a terminal than going through tedious dialogs that take forever (= more than 3 seconds) to load

But OK, I'll explain how it works. To install applications on the Pandora, you go to some web page (for example, the Pandora File Archive) and download a .pnd file. Then, you simply take that file and drop it on an SD card. Voilà, your application is installed. That's all there is to it.

 

[renegadechic]

i am completely clueless with linux myself (something the pandora will hopefully change) but my impression is that it should be as straightforward as using any other device with its own software, like mobile phones, PMPs, PSP, etc where it has its own software built in. it should essentially work out of the box for the casual user yet is flexible enough to be moulded into any shape the user desires.

 

[WizardStan]

Sorry about the other thread, but the gist before it was dragged off topic was: Yes, it has a GUI; most applications will be packaged in a PND file which is a single file that you simply drag and drop onto an SD card, and the Pandora picks it up and "installs" it as an icon to the desktop, which you then simply click to start. Easy peasy. When the SD card is removed, the icon is removed from the desktop as well.

The off topicness began because not all applications fit into the "click to run" paradigm, so we were trying to come up with a way around this. Sorry. There shouldn't be any "common" apps (such as video player, games, emulators, etc...) that will need the command line: just insert SD card and tap icon. That's the theory, anyway.

 

[fiori_musicali]

[ ... ] I am kind of scared of having to learn Linux command lines to do stuff like make VOIP phone calls over my 3G modem or just boot up an emulator.

The common fear of command-line interface (CLI) is unwarranted. You just type in commands to run programs. The commands often accept parameters, which in some cases require a little more extensive knowledge on what you're doing. There's no magic, you just specify what is it exactly that you want to achieve. Usually things follow logic, but you will most probably run into some rather counter-intuitive approaches and specifications. If you don't possess that "extensive knowledge", you ask the community and they help you. The comforting fact is that the knowledge does exist.

In my opinion if you handle arithmetic, can contain in memory the names of all your friends and your home address, then you have sufficient cognitive capacity to use CLI.