Pandora's Gui? Will It Even Have One?

[rabidpoobear]

P.S.
I think the linux nerds should be nicer to people who are crossing over from something like the iPhone and giving the Pandora a chance to take it's place. The more people like me willing to do that, the more money there will be to invest in these sorts of projects that are much more suited to your taste and technical sensibility.

It's not a question of niceness, it's frankness. And some people view that as being impolite when really it doesn't need to be. There are things that are better done on a command line.

It's like the first time someone told me about mechanical keyboards. I was like "well, I can already type 70wpm on a membrane keyboard, and it came free with my computer... why should I drop $70 on a new keyboard that doesn't even light up blue or have macro keys or a touch pad or an LCD screen that shows me what temperature it is outside or media buttons or .... (there are many membrane keyboards that have most/all of these features)" but I saw an ABS on sale for $20 with alps copies and I bought it since I needed a new cheap keyboard that was durable... and right now I have 2 mechanical keyboards on my desk (the other has cherry browns) and my friend upstairs has a Cherry w/ cherry blues and I'm probably going to order a Model M or a Unicomp soon. My roommate has a Logitech G15 but is probably going mechanical with his next keyboard. Another friend is looking to buy a keyboard and is just waiting for a sale on a mechanical. Obviously I don't need to sell you on the merits of mechanical keyboards as you use a Model M.

My point is - the way people approached me about mechanical keyboards seemed like zealotry. They'd just go on and on about them and won't listen to me when I say I'm quite happy with the keyboard I have now, thanks. And really, I'm glad they persisted. I'm probably never going to go back. It's just the way they tried to convince me that was a turnoff. The way I convince someone to use a mechanical keyboard is telling them to sit down at my chair and locking them in my room for 30 minutes. If they don't notice the keyboard's awesomeness I don't mention it anymore, but if they like it I explain what it is and how they can get one too. That's probably how I'll start a Pandora conversion. I'll hand them the system and then let them play with it for an hour, and answer any questions they might have. If, after actually using it and feeling it and smelling it and such, they are interested in one, I'll tell them more about it.

Just try to realize that's all Pandora fans are doing - trying to get you to love a console they love as well. They're just so excited about how amazing the system is that they don't pause to think how their gushing and endearment for their yet-to-be console is rubbing some people the wrong way. That doesn't mean they're wrong, or they're trying to be mean. It's just some misdirected enthusiasm.

Once you realize that, you'll fit much better into this community.
Calling us nerds and being indignant is not going to help you out, especially when your Pandora arrives and you realize we were right all along.

As for its use as a replacement for the 3GS / Palm Pre / whatever... it's not a replacement for them, and they're not replacements for it. These devices fit different markets and if you're in the Pandora market, it's the best thing that can satisfy your niche. Haha, it was a joke... 'cause niche and itch are sorta homonyms... >_>

 

[femngi]

If the Linux nerds are not going to be nice to an art student like me, then I'm out of luck

Oh dear, linux nerds and art students. A match made of Jerry Springer I think.

 

[rabidpoobear]

Sorry if all this is rather terse, I'm a little short on sleep.

So I read this as "I'm a little short on sheep" and I thought "damn, well I guess all I need are sheep to make my C++ error messages more verbose!" but while I was typing th*SEGFAULT*

 

[rabidpoobear]

This is totally untrue, no other system would give an SDK or publishing rights to make anything for their system that required use of re-vamped UNIX command lines.

*cough*EVERY PC IN THE WORLD*cough*
Seriously, this isn't a "system" run by a group that will blackball people who don't do what they want. There's no veto system on applications like the eyefone has. Think of this as a computer, not as a handheld PDA or something. That's what he meant by system. I can write command-line apps on Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Just because your normal PDA's hide that command-line and force developers not to use it doesn't mean Pandora has to do that as well.

 

[deadfishes]

This reminds me way too much of High School and bad RPGs. Maybe it was a bad idea after all.

 

[rabidpoobear]

This reminds me way too much of High School and bad RPGs. Maybe it was a bad idea after all.

Which part was a bad idea?

 

[femngi]

This reminds me way too much of High School and bad RPGs.

Welcome to the internet.

 

[midna25]

This reminds me way too much of High School and bad RPGs. Maybe it was a bad idea after all.

You aren't having a very good experience on this forum.

Okay. Just forget everything that has been said in this thread. Forget the people trying to convince you command line is the future. Just hear this.

The Pandora has a great GUI. It's full of buttons ready to be double clicked. It's REALLY simple. A lot easier than operating a desktop PC. Incredibly n00b friendly. There's no worries there. It includes command line (which by the way is TOTALLY optional) for the people who like it and know how to use it.

Are we all good?

Edit: And yes, ignore the two totally unhelpful people that just ninja'd me as well.

 

[God Ginrai]

that's up to the devs who code them, just like on any system.

-God Ginrai

This is totally untrue, no other system would give an SDK or publishing rights to make anything for their system that required use of re-vamped UNIX command lines.

The fanatics are running the show her. If the Linux nerds are not going to be nice to an art student like me, then I'm out of luck because I am depending on them to make plug-and-chug apps. Since the lunatics are running the asylum, I am pretty much at their mercy in terms of making easy to use VOIP or cellphone stuff.

You seem to be the only "fanatic" here. You seem to have a major prejudice towards linux users, and also, like rabidpoobear pointed out, this isn't a system where developers have to buy publishing rights or a specific SDK, so they won't force the devs to conform. A project like this would never work if we made the devs have to pay for special licenses or SDKs that only got in the way. You can expect any dev who sells their application to the Pandora to make it all user friendly, because they want as many people to buy it as possible. But if a dev is doing for free, they will put it in if they feel like it. FFS, don't get selfish now.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kramy]

I'm just replying in kind.

That requires not being the initiator. You called me an idiot first, so flip that around. After being called an idiot, of course my posts will take on a different tone when replying to you.

Which is 100% exploitable by anything malicious.

If there's some sort of .pnd installer app, it could track changes and store them in a secure location, but giving any power at all to the .pnd to modify the system(or *gasp* relying on it to track its own changes) is just asking for trouble.

WizardStan and I have pointed out time and again that the PND would never modify the system with this method. I don't know where you are getting that idea.

So far I've seen suggestions like this:

-Lets let the PND executable prompt to install itself.
-Automatically run [pnd created] rc files when SD card is mounted.
-Grant the PND executable access to modify the root of the SD card. (wouldn't this allow access to subdirs as well? And other PND files, if it wanted to be malicious?)
-Security doesn't matter, because 100% of Pandora software will come from the file archive/repository, which is 100% immune from hacking, and 100% guaranteed not to approve any malware by accident.

Well, let me offer my deepest apologies for pointing out my perceived flaws with these ideas, and suggesting the creation of some sort of external installer app that would have to be downloaded from repository. Clearly I was out of line and totally blinkered to think that would be more secure than just granting a PND full access to your whole SD card if it requests it, by default.

True. Devs like Pickle are invaluable, but I don't think he's doing anything that requires automatic installation?

All devs are invaluable. I don't care if they make something I am completely uninterested in. As long as they are competent, they are valuable. Because they have the capability of making something you want. Sure people like Pickle have ported a lot of apps, but there's people like dflemster who you haven't shown respect to who have done a lot of the needed work behind the scenes. (OS, WiFi, PND system, etc.) Don't just pick and choose.

-God Ginrai

?

I don't believe I've been disrespectful to him. My posts have a more aggressive stance towards you, but you called me an idiot when I brought up a valid point. dflemstr's responses are always reasonable, and yours always attack ruthlessly. I've had short chats with him in the past, and we've always been polite to each other. I used Pickle as an example merely because of the heaps of posts praising him months back for all the work he was doing. If you wanted to be satirical, you could say developer contributions are measured between User and Pickle.

Anyway, I pose this question - what makes me less valuable than all other devs? You seem to be picking and choosing quite easily.

(That's rhetorical - I know I'm less useful - just pointing out the hypocrisy of your argument)

 

[WizardStan]

-Lets let the PND executable prompt to install itself.
-Grant the PND executable access to modify the root of the SD card. (wouldn't this allow access to subdirs as well? And other PND files, if it wanted to be malicious?)

This was just one idea. Another was to use a specific kernel call to create rc file. Then it's the kernel controlling whether such things are allowed to be created and whether there's a warning or not.

-Automatically run [pnd created] rc files when SD card is mounted.

The only power it could have would be to start a PND file automatically. Maybe perform some symlinks. Details about what is and is not allowed would need to be fleshed out, but the fact that there can exist a file that is automatically run should not put a stop to the brainstorming. It is a necessary feature for some applications that they be started automatically. Besides which, the autorun itself would at least be kernel controlled: if you don't want it, shut it off. Then it doesn't matter what any malware tries to do.

-Security doesn't matter, because 100% of Pandora software will come from the file archive/repository, which is 100% immune from hacking, and 100% guaranteed not to approve any malware by accident.

This point especially bothers me, because it's an argument against any form of repository. If you're going to say there's a risk of malware getting into the Pandora repository, then there's a risk of same getting into any other repository; if there are applications to be downloaded outside the Pandora repository, there are similarly applications to be downloaded outside of any other repository. At least with the proposal I had going, if something went wrong it only had user level access. If a corrupt individual somehow gets something into the Debian repository or convinces you to download their deb package from their website, you enter your password to install it, and now it has root access.

 

[God Ginrai]

I'm just replying in kind.

That requires not being the initiator. You called me an idiot first, so flip that around. After being called an idiot, of course my posts will take on a different tone when replying to you.

I replied to an insult with an insult, that is replying in kind. I even mirrored the format of your insult so that you could see where it was coming from.

Which is 100% exploitable by anything malicious.

If there's some sort of .pnd installer app, it could track changes and store them in a secure location, but giving any power at all to the .pnd to modify the system(or *gasp* relying on it to track its own changes) is just asking for trouble.

WizardStan and I have pointed out time and again that the PND would never modify the system with this method. I don't know where you are getting that idea.

So far I've seen suggestions like this:

-Lets let the PND executable prompt to install itself.
-Automatically run [pnd created] rc files when SD card is mounted.
-Grant the PND executable access to modify the root of the SD card. (wouldn't this allow access to subdirs as well? And other PND files, if it wanted to be malicious?)
-Security doesn't matter, because 100% of Pandora software will come from the file archive/repository, which is 100% immune from hacking, and 100% guaranteed not to approve any malware by accident.

Well, let me offer my deepest apologies for pointing out my perceived flaws with these ideas, and suggesting the creation of some sort of external installer app that would have to be downloaded from repository. Clearly I was out of line and totally blinkered to think that would be more secure than just granting a PND full access to your whole SD card if it requests it, by default.

We never suggested root access. dflemstr did ask us at one point how we would do it since the PND would not have root access, when he still thought we were doing installs.

We have stressed over and over to dflemstr that no install would happen, but it seems that point didn't get across to you. The PND executable already has access to edit the SD card, IIRC. It's part of standard access permissions. Just like how vim and emacs can make text files on a system.

What's wrong with automatically running the rc files? They're not shell scripts or anything.

Also, most of your concerns about security hinge on misunderstood ideas that you think that our proposal is giving he PNDs more power than they already have.

True. Devs like Pickle are invaluable, but I don't think he's doing anything that requires automatic installation?

All devs are invaluable. I don't care if they make something I am completely uninterested in. As long as they are competent, they are valuable. Because they have the capability of making something you want. Sure people like Pickle have ported a lot of apps, but there's people like dflemster who you haven't shown respect to who have done a lot of the needed work behind the scenes. (OS, WiFi, PND system, etc.) Don't just pick and choose.

-God Ginrai

?

I don't believe I've been disrespectful to him. My posts have a more aggressive stance towards you, but you called me an idiot when I brought up a valid point. dflemstr's responses are always reasonable, and yours always attack ruthlessly. I've had short chats with him in the past, and we've always been polite to each other. I used Pickle as an example merely because of the heaps of posts praising him months back for all the work he was doing. If you wanted to be satirical, you could say developer contributions are measured between User and Pickle.

Anyway, I pose this question - what makes me less valuable than all other devs? You seem to be picking and choosing quite easily.

(That's rhetorical - I know I'm less useful - just pointing out the hypocrisy of your argument)

This post is what set me off against you in the first place.:

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

You sound like a giddy developer, to which I have to say...

Get your mucky hands off my OS!

I can't count the number of games that have generic extensions for replays(.dem), levels(.dat), art(.img, .art), etc., and fight with other programs constantly. I really despise that.

As far as I'm concerned, forcing a game to have a GUI to load levels or mods is a good thing. Preventing automatic alterations to my OS is also a good thing. To me(an end user) so far PND is sounding like a blessing, since it forces developers to do things differently. (properly) You have to jump through hoops, you say? Good! It's my OS - not yours!

I don't see how that can't be seen as disrespectful

-God Ginrai

 

[Vorporeal]

Some people seem to be misunderstanding installation (possibly) (or am I misunderstanding installation?). At least, as far as I could tell, PNDs wouldn't (generally) make any permanent changes to the file system. I expected (and am still hoping for) the system to be as in dflemstr's link - it would write symlinks to a UnionFS overlay. These would be small enough that we could even keep them in memory (in theory), or just put all of the symlinks in an overlay dir in the root of each SD card, which would contain the combined overlays of all installed PNDs. If this is the case, PNDs could always be executed in a way that they have read-only access to the NAND. They shouldn't really need write access. Any writing they'd need to do would probably be to a tmpfs or to the SD. This would keep damage to a minimum - unless one somehow got root access, the worst it could do would be wipe the SD that the PND is stored on.

 

[Kramy]

This post is what set me off against you in the first place.:

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

You sound like a giddy developer, to which I have to say...

Get your mucky hands off my OS!

I can't count the number of games that have generic extensions for replays(.dem), levels(.dat), art(.img, .art), etc., and fight with other programs constantly. I really despise that.

As far as I'm concerned, forcing a game to have a GUI to load levels or mods is a good thing. Preventing automatic alterations to my OS is also a good thing. To me(an end user) so far PND is sounding like a blessing, since it forces developers to do things differently. (properly) You have to jump through hoops, you say? Good! It's my OS - not yours!

I don't see how that can't be seen as disrespectful

-God Ginrai

Emoticon indicates I said it jokingly.

The remainder of the post outlines my position without any insults, and provides reasons for my position.

I've gotten giddy(excited) myself at times, just dreaming about all the features I'll add to a project... and completely forgetting there's other points of view, and that my features(Ex: Javascript-enabled calendar app) might not be required.

After outlining my position and providing my input, I defer judgement to the person actually completing the task. (dflemstr)

And then you attack me. Over and over.

If that's really what this is about, then lets just drop it right now. If he took any offense from my post, then I'll happily retroactively delete every post of mine in this thread - but I'd be truly surprised if he did.

 

[Monk]

This reminds me way too much of High School and bad RPGs.

Welcome to the internet.

Indeed. There's a mix of types wherever you go. They are NOt all bad here, not at all

(IMHO).

 

[WizardStan]

I expected (and am still hoping for) the system to be as in dflemstr's link - it would write symlinks to a UnionFS overlay.

I've been having some problems with dflemstr's idea, though I haven't quite been able to properly put them into a cohesive argument.
For example, what happens if the file already exists? You either go with the PND has higher priority, or you ignore it. Both have pros and cons. If someone releases an unofficial driver update as a PND file, it can just overlay itself over the original and everything just works from there. On the other hand, maybe you want to be able to switch back and forth between the two drivers as needed, or something. Tricky decisions.
And what happens if two PND files overlay the same files, even if they don't already exist? Icon sets, for example. Two packages have, by some coincidence, each placed their icon sets into /usr/icons/newblueicons or something. Need to come up with a good way of resolving these. Possibly a prompt which comes up on mount? Would we want to do it every mount? And how would the prompt go on bootup? hmmm...

 

[God Ginrai]

I expected (and am still hoping for) the system to be as in dflemstr's link - it would write symlinks to a UnionFS overlay.

I've been having some problems with dflemstr's idea, though I haven't quite been able to properly put them into a cohesive argument.
For example, what happens if the file already exists? You either go with the PND has higher priority, or you ignore it. Both have pros and cons. If someone releases an unofficial driver update as a PND file, it can just overlay itself over the original and everything just works from there. On the other hand, maybe you want to be able to switch back and forth between the two drivers as needed, or something. Tricky decisions.
And what happens if two PND files overlay the same files, even if they don't already exist? Icon sets, for example. Two packages have, by some coincidence, each placed their icon sets into /usr/icons/newblueicons or something. Need to come up with a good way of resolving these. Possibly a prompt which comes up on mount? Would we want to do it every mount? And how would the prompt go on bootup? hmmm...

I actually thought about that problem, and it seems to me that the best method would be strict versioning of anything that is overlayed. so instead of "lib.so" being overlayed, it would be something like: lib-1-0-5.so.

EDIT:

This post is what set me off against you in the first place.:

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

You sound like a giddy developer, to which I have to say...

Get your mucky hands off my OS!

I can't count the number of games that have generic extensions for replays(.dem), levels(.dat), art(.img, .art), etc., and fight with other programs constantly. I really despise that.

As far as I'm concerned, forcing a game to have a GUI to load levels or mods is a good thing. Preventing automatic alterations to my OS is also a good thing. To me(an end user) so far PND is sounding like a blessing, since it forces developers to do things differently. (properly) You have to jump through hoops, you say? Good! It's my OS - not yours!

I don't see how that can't be seen as disrespectful

-God Ginrai

Emoticon indicates I said it jokingly.

The remainder of the post outlines my position without any insults, and provides reasons for my position.

I've gotten giddy(excited) myself at times, just dreaming about all the features I'll add to a project... and completely forgetting there's other points of view, and that my features(Ex: Javascript-enabled calendar app) might not be required.

After outlining my position and providing my input, I defer judgement to the person actually completing the task. (dflemstr)

And then you attack me. Over and over.

If that's really what this is about, then lets just drop it right now. If he took any offense from my post, then I'll happily retroactively delete every post of mine in this thread - but I'd be truly surprised if he did.

There's some things that even emoticons can't fully change the spirit of.

As for my "attacks", I was trying to defend my proposal against your repeated negative "input" which was often caused by you thinking that the proposal was giving more power to the PNDs than what would actually be given.

-God Ginrai

 

[fiori_musicali]

As for my "attacks", I was trying to defend my proposal against your repeated negative "input" which was often caused by you thinking that the proposal was giving more power to the PNDs than what would actually be given.

I don't think he was being particularly negative. This is a discussion about pros and cons of the proposed method of installing apps, and discussions involve introducing conflicting viewpoints. What he said about the devs keeping their "mucky hands off his OS" is in essence a perfectly justified position (heed the context), even if his interpretation was misproportioned.

You seem to come forward with the attitude "Devs can do whatever they want, they don't owe you anything, be thankful they share their code" which is true, but a horrible philosophy if you want to develop an environment that is functional for the users. The open source world is plagued by this kind of attitude, and in a way it makes sense as the Linux community has more and less effectively used temporary hacks to resolve issues that would on higher standards have required more careful re-structuring (or total revamping) of the established design and components. Even a regular Linux user has to be a bit of a dev sometimes to hack something together in order to attain a short-term goal to fulfill their personal needs, but these hacks are not something you would want to incorporate into a commercially distributed device as part of the stock system that the users are expected to enjoy using.

The point is that the Pandora devs should be developing for the users, not just themselves, and that's why the end-users' input should be encouraged and treated with respect. You don't see Nintendo going "We'll do what the fuck ever we want, you take it bitch!" (and the financial dimension (or the differences thereof) is irrelevant in this comparison because my focus was the health of the community - which includes the relationship between builders and wielders - not quarter-annual stock results).

If you want to see the fruit of the "We know better than the user" attitude taken to the extreme, read here:
http://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/4986

In my opinion The Pandora needs a unified community and standards, not forks on forks just because some dev holding a crucial position thinks the regular users are ignorant trash.

 

[God Ginrai]

As for my "attacks", I was trying to defend my proposal against your repeated negative "input" which was often caused by you thinking that the proposal was giving more power to the PNDs than what would actually be given.

I don't think he was being particularly negative. This is a discussion about pros and cons of the proposed method of installing apps, and discussions involve introducing conflicting viewpoints. What he said about the devs keeping their "mucky hands off his OS" is in essence a perfectly justified position (heed the context), even if his interpretation was misproportioned.

You seem to come forward with the attitude "Devs can do whatever they want, they don't owe you anything, be thankful they share their code" which is true, but a horrible philosophy if you want to develop an environment that is functional for the users. The open source world is plagued by this kind of attitude, and in a way it makes sense as the Linux community has more and less effectively used temporary hacks to resolve issues that would on higher standards have required more careful re-structuring (or total revamping) of the established design and components. Even a regular Linux user has to be a bit of a dev sometimes to hack something together in order to attain a short-term goal to fulfill their personal needs, but these hacks are not something you would want to incorporate into a commercially distributed device as part of the stock system that the users are expected to enjoy using.

The point is that the Pandora devs should be developing for the users, not just themselves, and that's why the end-users' input should be encouraged and treated with respect. You don't see Nintendo going "We'll do what the fuck ever we want, you take it bitch!" (and the financial dimension (or the differences thereof) is irrelevant in this comparison because my focus was the health of the community - which includes the relationship between builders and wielders - not quarter-annual stock results).

If you want to see the fruit of the "We know better than the user" attitude taken to the extreme, read here:
http://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/4986

In my opinion The Pandora needs a unified community and standards, not forks on forks just because some dev holding a crucial position thinks the regular users are ignorant trash.

This seems quite negative to me:

You have the attitude of an annoying linux dev. "Users can suck it - only the developer matters! Now shove aside and let me auto-install my crap on YOUR [phone, PC]"

Well, that's fine, but please mark any software you release as "AUTOMATICALLY INSTALLS" so I can stay the hell away from it.

Also, it's good for Open Pandora to make things easy for the users, but imposing standards would just drive many good devs away. The whole point of the platform is that it is open to do whatever you want.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

If you want to see the fruit of the "We know better than the user" attitude taken to the extreme, read here:
http://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/4986

To be fair, the Pidgin devs were trying to find the medium ground of new feature with user input, but when most of the user input boiled down to "it should be optional because I like to fiddle around with the size" you start to question the sanity of the user.
To put it into perspective, I think the Pandora should be able to massage my feet, and the fact that it doesn't proves the devs don't care about the user. They could have made it an optional thing.