Pandora's Gui? Will It Even Have One?

[dflemstr]

The problem with that is people would soon complain that so much of every sd card is used up by os installs, or that they can't find there SD card with the OS on.

very true.
also, it would be quite annoying to have the kernel,X,GUI,etc crash/panic when you accidentally eject the SD card.
this has happened a couple of times I tried Linux on my iPAQ from the SD card.
(its still unusable as a Linux PDA, hopefully my Pandora will soon replace it)

Interesting fact: I once took my main computer, started everything I could possibly think of that doesn't directly rely on a disk (2 KDE instances, a memcached maven build, a servlet server, and some random internet video streams etc) and pulled out all of my (S-ATA) disks. It survived for quite some time without any problems at all, and when I inserted the disks again, operation continued as if nothing had happened. That thus shouldn't be a problem.

Also, PNDs will suffer from the same problem: if you pull out a SD card with apps you're running on it, things will crash, horribly.

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

...

What was this conversation originally about, again?

 

[WizardStan]

Also, PNDs will suffer from the same problem: if you pull out a SD card with apps you're running on it, things will crash, horribly.

Should just be the application(s) running though, not the entire system. Or so I would hope, at least.

So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible.

Why not? Seems like a perfectly possible thing to do. If it boots with the SD card in, it can execute the PND and start your web server or whatever, no? And if you don't have the SD card in, then it doesn't start. Or you can just install Apache to the NAND; I don't see why it has to be strictly one or the other. If you're advanced enough to know how to install a web server, you should be advanced enough to take responsibility for said install.
I had assumed the PND format was intended for user run applications anyway: emulators, games, web browsers, and office apps. Most users I don't expect will be running services like Apache or openssh anyway, eh?

 

[Kramy]

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

You sound like a giddy developer, to which I have to say...

Get your mucky hands off my OS!

I can't count the number of games that have generic extensions for replays(.dem), levels(.dat), art(.img, .art), etc., and fight with other programs constantly. I really despise that.

As far as I'm concerned, forcing a game to have a GUI to load levels or mods is a good thing. Preventing automatic alterations to my OS is also a good thing. To me(an end user) so far PND is sounding like a blessing, since it forces developers to do things differently. (properly) You have to jump through hoops, you say? Good! It's my OS - not yours!

 

[midna25]

Don't worry. I won't bite Welcome to the community.

The Pandora has an excellent and smooth interface called Angstrom Linux built right in. It's be there when you order and boot right into it when you start up. It's quite reminiscent of a desktop computer's OS, like Windows or common Linux and requires no special knowledge whatsoever to operate.

And BTW. If you haven't ordered one and want to, do so now. There's still a few orders left!

Edit: Looks like I've been ninja'd.

Also Angstrom is the Linux Distribution, not the interface. The interface will be Matchbox.

Thread is full of wrong information!

The average newb who comes on here is not going to know the difference between a Linux Distro and GIU. I've talked with people on irc about this. They were confused. I tried explaining what a NAND is to someone asking for help about wii hacking. No clue. I was trying to simplify, but whatever. To me it's mostly semantics..

Maybe I should have said this.

"The Pandora runs a version of Angstrom using the matchbox interface and has a built in 512MB NAND."

I wonder how well that would go over?

 

[God Ginrai]

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

Couldn't you just have .*rc files that are stored in specific directories on the SD that get added whenever you want to add something new to start up with the file system? That way, the system starts up and checks for the existence of said files, and uses the ones it finds. They wouldn't be the whole settings file, but any additions that you need added to that settings file. (Hell, it could be the whole settings file if you think that would go over better)

-God Ginrai

 

[dflemstr]

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

Couldn't you just have .*rc files that are stored in specific directories on the SD that get added whenever you want to add something new to start up with the file system? That way, the system starts up and checks for the existence of said files, and uses the ones it finds. They wouldn't be the whole settings file, but any additions that you need added to that settings file. (Hell, it could be the whole settings file if you think that would go over better)

Good luck incorporating that into the PND standard
AKA, no, it's not that easy I'm afraid.

 

[Enverex]

Silly question then: How will we actually run apps on the Pandora at this stage as there doesn't seem any way to actually "install" things...

 

[Pleng]

You sound like a giddy developer, to which I have to say...

Get your mucky hands off my OS!

Exactly. I know there are people who want to use Pandora as a portable laptop replacement, and for them there are countless alternative OSes they can install onto an SD card.

I want to use it as a portable gaming device, with the occasional bit of browsing thrown in for good measure. There is no place on such a device for apps which install libraries and god-knows-what else into the system gradually bloating it out, slowing it down and making me consider a reinstall every 12 months or so.

Nobody complained (as far as I know) about the drag and drop installations for GP2X, so I really can't understand why people get upset about it for the default Pandora option... at least it means no other app can break yours by installing an old/updated-but-now-incompatible version of a library your app is using!

 

[WizardStan]

Silly question then: How will we actually run apps on the Pandora at this stage as there doesn't seem any way to actually "install" things...

My understanding has always been:
1) Download PND file
2) Copy PND file to SD card somehow (could even just download directly on the Pandora)
3) Insert SD card (or if downloading directly on Pandora, hit some kind of "Refresh" button that may not exist yet)
3a) Pandora automatically scans SD for PND files, and displays them on the Desktop
4) Tap the icon
Program loads.

 

[dflemstr]

Silly question then: How will we actually run apps on the Pandora at this stage as there doesn't seem any way to actually "install" things...

My understanding has always been:
1) Download PND file
2) Copy PND file to SD card somehow (could even just download directly on the Pandora)
3) Insert SD card (or if downloading directly on Pandora, hit some kind of "Refresh" button that may not exist yet)
3a) Pandora automatically scans SD for PND files, and displays them on the Desktop
4) Tap the icon
Program loads.

Bingo.
Except you don't need a Refresh button; the daemon finds stuff anyways.

 

[WizardStan]

Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files.

I was thinking about this. What's the problem with handling this situation in the same way as emulators do? ROMs don't make any changes to the OS either, when you start an emulator, you need to select the game file you want to load. Do the same with your theoretical game engine: start the engine PND, load screen comes up, you select the game pack you want to play. In fact, that's how every game I'm aware of has done it: Doom, Quake, Half Life, etc, all have separate packages that are easily loaded as needed. Unless you are talking about something else that I don't understand.

 

[God Ginrai]

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

Couldn't you just have .*rc files that are stored in specific directories on the SD that get added whenever you want to add something new to start up with the file system? That way, the system starts up and checks for the existence of said files, and uses the ones it finds. They wouldn't be the whole settings file, but any additions that you need added to that settings file. (Hell, it could be the whole settings file if you think that would go over better)

Good luck incorporating that into the PND standard
AKA, no, it's not that easy I'm afraid.

Could you explain to me why that would be so hard? I don't believe I understand.

-God Ginrai

 

[dflemstr]

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

Couldn't you just have .*rc files that are stored in specific directories on the SD that get added whenever you want to add something new to start up with the file system? That way, the system starts up and checks for the existence of said files, and uses the ones it finds. They wouldn't be the whole settings file, but any additions that you need added to that settings file. (Hell, it could be the whole settings file if you think that would go over better)

Good luck incorporating that into the PND standard
AKA, no, it's not that easy I'm afraid.

Could you explain to me why that would be so hard? I don't believe I understand.

Because PNDs are never installed, and there's no way to get any code executed when a PND is mounted. It's a passive process. Think of it as a ZIP file, that has a name and version number, and the ability to specify some executable inside of it as the "main application". That's why it's basically impossible to do anything beyond deploying something like PandoraPanic with a PND.

 

[God Ginrai]

I guess that my main problem now is that PNDs can't modify the main file system in any way. So let's say that I put Apache Web server (bad example, I know) in a PND, and want it to automatically add itself to /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d or whatever is used in Ångström; that just isn't possible. Or if I want to put a "game engine" (let's say, something like the Quake 3 application) and levels for that engine in separate PNDs, there's no way that the "level" PNDs can create symlinks or something similar to make the game engine able to find the level files. Thee's just so many hoops you have to jump through with the PND system, and some things just aren't possible any more when using it.

Couldn't you just have .*rc files that are stored in specific directories on the SD that get added whenever you want to add something new to start up with the file system? That way, the system starts up and checks for the existence of said files, and uses the ones it finds. They wouldn't be the whole settings file, but any additions that you need added to that settings file. (Hell, it could be the whole settings file if you think that would go over better)

Good luck incorporating that into the PND standard
AKA, no, it's not that easy I'm afraid.

Could you explain to me why that would be so hard? I don't believe I understand.

Because PNDs are never installed, and there's no way to get any code executed when a PND is mounted. It's a passive process. Think of it as a ZIP file, that has a name and version number, and the ability to specify some executable inside of it as the "main application". That's why it's basically impossible to do anything beyond deploying something like PandoraPanic with a PND.

It shouldn't have to be installed, should it? The .*rc file would let the OS know that it needs to execute said files in said PNDs.

-God Ginrai

 

[Sphinxter]

One of the more important function of the PND system is to effectively limit your ability to destroy the operating environment of other applications.

 

[dflemstr]

It shouldn't have to be installed, should it? The .*rc file would let the OS know that it needs to execute said files in said PNDs.

There's currently no daemon that scans all mounted PND folders to find such an .*rc file. I'm sure skeezix would accept patches if you can find some brilliant solution to that problem (you also have to think about that it's possible for conflicting PNDs to be mounted simultaneously, and that there's no possibility of executing any code when a PND is unmounted, or that executed code could compromize the system).

 

[God Ginrai]

It shouldn't have to be installed, should it? The .*rc file would let the OS know that it needs to execute said files in said PNDs.

There's currently no daemon that scans all mounted PND folders to find such an .*rc file. I'm sure skeezix would accept patches if you can find some brilliant solution to that problem (you also have to think about that it's possible for conflicting PNDs to be mounted simultaneously, and that there's no possibility of executing any code when a PND is unmounted, or that executed code could compromize the system).

You're misunderstanding. The .*rc files would be separate from the PNDs. They would be stored on the SD card, but not in a PND. And they would tell the OS what PNDs to execute stuff from or to set permissions for, mount, etc.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

Not unlike autorun.inf.

 

[bzar]

Not unlike autorun.inf.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[dflemstr]

It shouldn't have to be installed, should it? The .*rc file would let the OS know that it needs to execute said files in said PNDs.

There's currently no daemon that scans all mounted PND folders to find such an .*rc file. I'm sure skeezix would accept patches if you can find some brilliant solution to that problem (you also have to think about that it's possible for conflicting PNDs to be mounted simultaneously, and that there's no possibility of executing any code when a PND is unmounted, or that executed code could compromize the system).

You're misunderstanding. The .*rc files would be separate from the PNDs. They would be stored on the SD card, but not in a PND. And they would tell the OS what PNDs to execute stuff from or to set permissions for, mount, etc.

...so the user would manually have to write them? Or download them separately from somewhere? Huh?