Pandora with microSD - will you buy it?

[ekianjo]

Yes, an internal SDXC would take up roughly twice the room as an internal microSD.

Actually it would take up considerably more room than that... you seem to be forgetting that for an internal card, in addition to the area of the slot itself you'll need an almost equal amount of empty space beside the slot to allow for removal of the card... for a full size SD card this represents a massive area when compared to the size of the unit to begin with.


- Neelix

Let's careful about words here Where is "massive" ??


VOlume of Pandora = 3 * 12 * 7 = 252 cm3 (I dont have the unit with me so let's admit it's in that range)


Volume of full sd card = 2.5 * 2 *0.2 = 1 cm3 (same here, rough estimation).


Even if you need three times the space of a SD Card to fit it internally, it's still only 3 / 252 = 1.2 % of the whole volume. This is NOTHING. Certainly not "Massive"

 

[Aurekana]

Let's careful about words here Where is "massive" ??


VOlume of Pandora = 3 * 12 * 7 = 252 cm3 (I dont have the unit with me so let's admit it's in that range)


Volume of full sd card = 2.5 * 2 *0.2 = 1 cm3 (same here, rough estimation).


Even if you need three times the space of a SD Card to fit it internally, it's still only 3 / 252 = 1.2 % of the whole volume. This is NOTHING. Certainly not "Massive"

True, it's not that large in comparison, but I've taken my Pandora apart numerous times to do unspeakable things to it, and to me it seems there is not nearly enough room to fit anything even as small as a microSD slot internally without taking something off the board. Much of the total volume is filled with things that are fairly important. There is admittedly a bit of empty space, but none of it is really the right size nor in an area where it would be very useful.

 

[Binky]

problem is that pcbs are mostly 2D, so we are talking area, not volume.


Dual external SDXC + significant amounts of built-in NAND (maybe 128GB) seems reasonable, and poses no space problems...

 

[Grench]

Yes, an internal SDXC would take up roughly twice the room as an internal microSD.

Actually it would take up considerably more room than that... you seem to be forgetting that for an internal card, in addition to the area of the slot itself you'll need an almost equal amount of empty space beside the slot to allow for removal of the card... for a full size SD card this represents a massive area when compared to the size of the unit to begin with.


- Neelix

Again, not really. We're talking about a card that sits up behind the battery - so that it can't be ejected without the unit off/battery removed. So - it can eject into the space that the battery occupies during operation.

Yes, an internal SDXC would take up roughly twice the room as an internal microSD.

Actually it would take up considerably more room than that... you seem to be forgetting that for an internal card, in addition to the area of the slot itself you'll need an almost equal amount of empty space beside the slot to allow for removal of the card... for a full size SD card this represents a massive area when compared to the size of the unit to begin with.


- Neelix

Let's careful about words here Where is "massive" ??


VOlume of Pandora = 3 * 12 * 7 = 252 cm3 (I dont have the unit with me so let's admit it's in that range)


Volume of full sd card = 2.5 * 2 *0.2 = 1 cm3 (same here, rough estimation).


Even if you need three times the space of a SD Card to fit it internally, it's still only 3 / 252 = 1.2 % of the whole volume. This is NOTHING. Certainly not "Massive"

Thank you for doing the calculations.


Both SD and microSD use the same controller hardware, require the same lines on the board - that surface area/volume (5 layer board?) - those add up too and would be fairly well constant regardless of which card is used.


So I wonder - if you include all of the controller hardware, traces, pins and everything associated with each card - is the microSD really half the space/volume - or does it work out to something more than that? I.e. if the 'true space' required for the rest of the SD control is relatively large - the net for a micro SD could be something in the range of 55-75% of what is needed for a full sized SD. With the general overhead - that would lend me to want to get the most out of that overhead that I can - which means maximizing the port's capabilities... You can see where I go with that.


I'm not sure what the actual numbers should be for the above - but if we're going to start questioning whether the case of the Pandora is more or less than the 1/32" recess around the slots and whether that is enough to cancel out the 1/50th of a CC volume that the end of an SD card takes, the overhead of handling an SD/microSD slot should probably be included in calculating the volume or surface area of each.

problem is that pcbs are mostly 2D, so we are talking area, not volume.


Dual external SDXC + significant amounts of built-in NAND (maybe 128GB) seems reasonable, and poses no space problems...

Mmm... raises other issues though.


-Buying, populating, testing that much NAND for on-board installation would probably cost more than the $89 that a 128GB SDXC card costs.


-What do you do, someday, when that internal NAND that gets used as OS, /swap, etc... finally wears out?


-Pick and pull machines are good, but they still require bigger solder dots than you'll find in the process inside modern SDXC media. It probably won't be able to be as dense.


-Device carried memory - I like the idea that I can pop the cards out of my Pandora and I instantly have a 'clean' device. Doing a memory wipe on a 128GB soldered on NAND wouldn't be easy on a functioning device - and impossible if it's broken and needs to be sent in for service. Although I don't keep anything on my Pandora to feel guilty about - I'd just as soon not have anyone poking through my picture and audio files either.


My opinion:


microSD is a better option than soldered on NAND - and comes saddled with issues that make the device 'worthless' to many of us.


Full sized SD is a better option than microSD - and can be used with microSD if that is what someone wants to use.


Yours may vary.

 

[Exophase]

Both SD and microSD use the same controller hardware, require the same lines on the board - that surface area/volume (5 layer board?) - those add up too and would be fairly well constant regardless of which card is used.

So I wonder - if you include all of the controller hardware, traces, pins and everything associated with each card - is the microSD really half the space/volume - or does it work out to something more than that? I.e. if the 'true space' required for the rest of the SD control is relatively large - the net for a micro SD could be something in the range of 55-75% of what is needed for a full sized SD. With the general overhead - that would lend me to want to get the most out of that overhead that I can - which means maximizing the port's capabilities... You can see where I go with that.

Please stop making up numbers...


There's no SD controller, it's part of the SoC (unless OPT is silly and puts a USB3 one on the board like you want), so zero space is required for it. microSD is about a quarter of the surface area of SD, I don't know where you got this half number to begin with. The pin contacts on the board are underneath where the card would be placed and therefore don't add the surface area requirement. The traces from the contacts to the SoC (and PMIC for power) are a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds you need for everything else and are probably not going to constrain board space. This is more true the closer the card is to the SoC.

I'm not sure what the actual numbers should be for the above - but if we're going to start questioning whether the case of the Pandora is more or less than the 1/32" recess around the slots and whether that is enough to cancel out the 1/50th of a CC volume that the end of an SD card takes, the overhead of handling an SD/microSD slot should probably be included in calculating the volume or surface area of each.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. I've never been talking about the volume of the end of the SD card, I was talking about how much the SD card (when fully inserted) sticks over the edge of the PCB. Unfortunately I can't find pictures of the bare PCB with an SD card plugged in so I don't know exactly how much it is, but it's obviously non-zero (has to be or the case would need to have zero thickness where it's recessed)

 

[Grench]

Both SD and microSD use the same controller hardware, require the same lines on the board - that surface area/volume (5 layer board?) - those add up too and would be fairly well constant regardless of which card is used.

So I wonder - if you include all of the controller hardware, traces, pins and everything associated with each card - is the microSD really half the space/volume - or does it work out to something more than that? I.e. if the 'true space' required for the rest of the SD control is relatively large - the net for a micro SD could be something in the range of 55-75% of what is needed for a full sized SD. With the general overhead - that would lend me to want to get the most out of that overhead that I can - which means maximizing the port's capabilities... You can see where I go with that.

Please stop making up numbers...


There's no SD controller, it's part of the SoC (unless OPT is silly and puts a USB3 one on the board like you want), so zero space is required for it. microSD is about a quarter of the surface area of SD, I don't know where you got this half number to begin with.

The card may be 1/4 the size, but it also has half the maximum capacity - and always will. So, in GB/cmsq - it's about half - maybe a bit more.


Again, if you want to put in two microSD in a RAID 0 array inside the unit - then you're talking about similar capacity, speed, etc - and that may be an acceptable trade off.


But, you're so tied up with what YOU want that you're not willing to listen to alternatives that could satisfy everyone's needs. You can put a microSD card into a full sized slot. I can't put a full sized SD into a microSD slot. The difference in volume, surface area, etc... they're negligible when compared to the performance and capacity hit that microSD dictates.

 

[slaeshjag]

You can't fit three fullsize SD-card slots on the pandora's pcb, there's not enough room for that. End of story.


EDIT: Also, don't forget that a fullsize SD-card slot needs room to insert/eject the card as well. There's holders for µSD that are "top-loaded". I have not seen that kind of holder for fullsize SD-cards.

 

[Grench]

You can't fit three fullsize SD-card slots on the pandora's pcb, there's not enough room for that. End of story.

We have been down that road too. Put one full sized SD slot inside, one exposed. I'm fine with that. On the exceptionally rare occasion that I have to go SD card to SD card and can't stage through the boot/swap/programs/space card that I've got locked down in the unit - for those rare occasions I can use a USB to SD adapter just fine.


Everyone seems to like the idea of keeping two full sized external SD slots. Since the new unit won't have an internal NAND drive, that means we need -something- to boot from. microSD is an inferior option for this task - and would force those of us who care to boot from one of the exposed SD slots.


Here's another idea. Expose all 3 of these hypothetical card slots. Put two exposed SDXC slots and one exposed microSD slot on the device. Supply each one with a 1" piece of electrical tape to 'blank out' the port they're booting from so they don't accidentally eject it. Given that choice, and knowing the performance and capabilities of the cards available for each type - which slot would YOU boot from?

 

[slaeshjag]

µSD, since that's the fiddliest card to handle

 

[Exophase]

The card may be 1/4 the size, but it also has half the maximum capacity - and always will. So, in GB/cmsq - it's about half - maybe a bit more.

Again, if you want to put in two microSD in a RAID 0 array inside the unit - then you're talking about similar capacity, speed, etc - and that may be an acceptable trade off.

You said ONE microSD slot would take up half the space and then extended that with some argument that the SD cards require a bunch of other space for other things.. this has absolutely nothing to do with your RAID idea that I'm sure will never happen, and you know it.. Why can't you accept when you're wrong about something? Why do you have to resort to saying whatever you can to try to get out of your original claims?

But, you're so tied up with what YOU want that you're not willing to listen to alternatives that could satisfy everyone's needs. You can put a microSD card into a full sized slot. I can't put a full sized SD into a microSD slot. The difference in volume, surface area, etc... they're negligible when compared to the performance and capacity hit that microSD dictates.

For the billionth time, this has nothing to do with me, why do you keep assuming that? I could barely care less about the storage so long as it includes at least one SD (microSD or otherwise). You're the one who keeps going on about how much your needs demand whatever, I'm just trying to gauge what the general user base is most interested in. Every time you extend a weak argument with something refutable (like how microSD and SD will take almost the same space because of other board demands like a controller) and I counter it you just fall back to repeating the same stuff over and over and over again, how it's inferior and you won't accept it. This has long since stopped being about whether or not you're willing to tolerate microSD anywhere and why, the question now is somewhat hypothetical - IF people got to pick two full SD and one microSD and one is internal and the first boot option, which would they go for? And you're arguing for this as if there's some absolute truth behind a superior option and if more people are picking the one you don't want they're wrong and need to wake up..


Yes I agree, a microSD slot is less universal/less convenient to use than a full SD slot. Which is probably why a fair number of people would prefer to keep an internal boot one microSD, especially if OPT is supplying a card, because they'd be less likely to replace it and less likely to want to bring in a card full of data from another device there..

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Mini SD FOR THE WIN, you're all wrong here, mini SD is the best, everyone agrees. Everything proves it with a 100% accuracy.


Mini SD is better than SD, better than micro SD, better than cdrom, better than Western Digital and Seagate drives.


Chuck Norris himself said "I choose Mini SD, because it's the best". Obama and Putin uses Mini SD, Mini SD were used to land on the moon, Christopher Colombus used Mini SD when he discovered America.


Mini SD can make you live longer, Mini SD can give you multiple horny sexual partners, Mini SD can make you win the lottery...


Unfortunately, Mini SD can not help you to detect a well-known troll, and stop playing his game.

 

[Null]

Mini SD FOR THE WIN, you're all wrong here, mini SD is the best, everyone agrees. Everything proves it with a 100% accuracy.


Mini SD is better than SD, better than micro SD, better than cdrom, better than Western Digital and Seagate drives.


Chuck Norris himself said "I choose Mini SD, because it's the best". Obama and Putin uses Mini SD, Mini SD were used to land on the moon, Christopher Colombus used Mini SD when he discovered America.


Mini SD can make you live longer, Mini SD can give you multiple horny sexual partners, Mini SD can make you win the lottery...


Unfortunately, Mini SD can not help you to detect a well-known troll, and stop playing his game.

Mini SD < C90 tapes.

 

[Grench]

µSD, since that's the fiddliest card to handle

That, Sir, is the best answer so far.

 

[Grench]

1.

Yes I agree, a microSD slot is less universal/less convenient to use than a full SD slot.

2.

Which is probably why a fair number of people would prefer to keep an internal boot one microSD

3.

, especially if OPT is supplying a card, because they'd be less likely to replace it and less likely to want to bring in a card full of data from another device there..

How on earth do you reconcile 2. with 1.???? Full size SD is superior to microSD therefore you think that a fair number of people would rather not use it? Whaaat???


For 3., if they use full sized SD they could get a card twice as fast, twice as large for about the same money - whether the end user changes it or not is irrelevant.


The users that don't care will be better off with full sized SD - they get more space on a faster card.


The users who -do- care won't have to go looking for a different device to fulfill their needs. Full sized SD is a win/win whether it's internal or external. Everyone gets what they want and/or need in the device.


I still don't think we should dismiss the USB 3.0 internal hub idea. It has the bandwidth to outstrip every current SDXC card on the market by a 5:1 ratio.


Apparently TI hasn't been following down that path - since it couldn't happen.


http://www.ti.com/product/tusb9260#feature


http://www.jungo.com/st/embedded_usb_usb3.html


But then, what do I know? Nobody would ever make a 8 core 64bit ARM SoC with a USB 3.0 host controller and a top end GPU.


http://techware-bliss.blogspot.com/2011/07/nvidia-project-denver-8-core-64bit-arm.html


That could never happen... Clearly.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Mini SD FOR THE WIN, you're all wrong here, mini SD is the best, everyone agrees. Everything proves it with a 100% accuracy.


Mini SD is better than SD, better than micro SD, better than cdrom, better than Western Digital and Seagate drives.


Chuck Norris himself said "I choose Mini SD, because it's the best". Obama and Putin uses Mini SD, Mini SD were used to land on the moon, Christopher Colombus used Mini SD when he discovered America.


Mini SD can make you live longer, Mini SD can give you multiple horny sexual partners, Mini SD can make you win the lottery...


Unfortunately, Mini SD can not help you to detect a well-known troll, and stop playing his game.

Mini SD < C90 tapes.

Metal ones, of course.


I remember beeing astonished by Chris Rea's Road to hell and Notting Hillbillies Missing... The mixing/mastering are the best i ever heard, and the cassette quality was awesome.


So let's go for a tape recorder and a Mini SD port.


Moderators, the thread is closed.

 

[Null]

So let's go for a tape recorder, a Mini SD port and a punch card reader.

Now we're set for the 21st century.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

So let's go for a tape recorder, a Mini SD port and a punch card reader.

Now we're set for the 21st century.

Let's say third millennium ?


BTW i didn't say "punch card reader" ;^).

 

[Null]

Let's say third millennium ?

Sure why not.

BTW i didn't say "punch card reader" ;^).

No you forgot to, it's a good job i'm around to fix things isn't it.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Hopefully, and finally, someone serious on this serious subject.

 

[Null]

And now back to the 100m arguing on BBC1.