Pandora with microSD - will you buy it?

[Prometheus]

and currently microSD is much more expensive at the capacities I want in the Pandora (32gb / 64gb)

They appear to be about the same price for SanDisk's 32GB microSD and full-sized SD Cards at the moment.


This said, there is a price difference between their 64GB microSD and standard SD right now, but then, the microSD in this case is 30MB/s, rather than the full-sized card's 15MB/s - there didn't seem to be an equal card in this case, just a superior microSD for not much more money.

 

[Exophase]

Have to say, I didn't expect the votes to turn out like this at all.


Personally, I think all microSD is a bad idea and not worth what you get from it (about 1mm of saved thickness). And there should be at least one full sized SD slot on the board. But I didn't think so many people would see this as a dealbreaker. While I think some of them are bluffing and would still buy the thing eventually I have to imagine this doesn't apply to everyone. It's pretty eye opening. OPT should pay close attention to this, and not just insist that this is the only way. Of course I still don't understand why a unit with at least as much PCB space (due to having a larger screen) wouldn't have room for at least one full SD, unless OPT are planning on throwing a bunch more stuff on it than Pandora 1 had.. in reality they can probably save room - one or zero nub controllers, fewer transceivers, smaller auxiliary chips like Wifi/BT - but they might also be losing space if they go away from PoP memory (which could be a smart move)

 

[Aurekana]

Not sure if it has been mentioned already...


Both microSD and SD cards are based around standard flash chips, and last I recall a full sized SD card can hold 2 ICs while a microSD has space for only 1. Assuming both are based on the latest memory chips, the fullSD card will always have at least double the capacity of the largest microSD card, and since something like the Pandora 1/2 is all about maximizing storage to be like a portable computer, it would make a lot more sense to have the largest amount of flash memory possible.


Of course, as Exo said, if the design is limited by PCB space, last I checked the footprint of a microSD card is less than half that of a fullSD card. However, assuming the SoC has a limited number of SD/MMC controllers, replacing a fullSD card with 2x microSD cards would not really work despite possibly saving a little space.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

It's pretty eye opening. OPT should pay close attention to this, and not just insist that this is the only way. Of course I still don't understand why a unit with at least as much PCB space (due to having a larger screen) wouldn't have room for at least one full SD, unless OPT are planning on throwing a bunch more stuff on it than Pandora 1 had..

In chess we would call this kind of move a "blunder" or "??".


To be fair, though, a majority would still buy it according to the poll right now, and perhaps for every potential buyer that would not buy another buyer would. Well, I really doubt the latter.

Of course, as Exo said, if the design is limited by PCB space, last I checked the footprint of a microSD card is less than half that of a fullSD card. However, assuming the SoC has a limited number of SD/MMC controllers, replacing a fullSD card with 2x microSD cards would not really work despite possibly saving a little space.

Even if it could work, how fun would it be managing 4 microSD slots? Yay...

 

[slaeshjag]

Knowing µSD, you wouldn't touch those cards after you plug 'em in

 

[Grench]

To be fair, though, a majority would still buy it according to the poll right now, and perhaps for every potential buyer that would not buy another buyer would. Well, I really doubt the latter.

Missing the point a bit. The way this poll rolled out so far:


34% would be happy -either way-.


26% would be willing to work with it - but won't be happy about the lack of a real SD slot.


A full 40% of current customers would be lost if the device converts completely over to microSD.


That a majority would still buy it - that isn't the question.


Would a large chunk not buy it due to the microSD card slots - the answer to that, so far, is a resounding, yes - they would NOT buy it due to the microSD fiasco.


To use microSD is to hate microSD.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

To be fair, though, a majority would still buy it according to the poll right now, and perhaps for every potential buyer that would not buy another buyer would. Well, I really doubt the latter.

Missing the point a bit. The way this poll rolled out so far:


34% would be happy -either way-.


26% would be willing to work with it - but won't be happy about the lack of a real SD slot.


A full 40% of current customers would be lost if the device converts completely over to microSD.


That a majority would still buy it - that isn't the question.


Would a large chunk not buy it due to the microSD card slots - the answer to that, so far, is a resounding, yes - they would NOT buy it due to the microSD fiasco.

Excuse me? I have missed no point, sir.


"Pandora with microSD - will you buy it?" <== FTFOP


I was simply being fair in stating that, despite it being blunderous imo for OPT, a majority would still buy the device. No point has been missed whatsoever by myself, you are sorely mistaken.

To use microSD is to hate microSD.

This is just fucking crazy. Is that you, StreaK?

 

[Mr_Loon]

I'd much prefer it if P2 had an internal microSD to replace the Nand and dual external full size SDXC slots.


It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but like many here, I find microSD cards a real faff to deal with due to their small size.

 

[diligentcircle]

26% would be willing to work with it - but won't be happy about the lack of a real SD slot.

Why is everyone interpreting "I would prefer SD" as "I would not be happy without SD"? These are two completely different meanings.

 

[urisma]

The 40% statistic sucks. Actually, pretty much ALL of the statistics concerning consumer preference for the P2 going on in this subforum sucks. There have been a few thousand Pandora sales (5000 or so? I don't know specifics but I'll keep it at that to make the numbers easy). And this thread has a whopping 55 votes, so a little over 1% of the pandoras that have been sold. That's not a representative sample AT ALL, both of potential customers and people who already purchased the P1. Furthermore, the statistic suffers from various forms of voting bias, such as wording bias and response bias. The people voting in this poll are a small sample from a small community of (most likely) more enthusiastic Pandora owners. The people that care enough to actually come in and vote are the ones that really care about SD card size, not what most people think. Honestly, I think the results are skewed in favor of full sized SD, as this online community is made up mostly of enthusiasts who most likely have higher performance requirements for their digital media and therefore are biased toward full sized media. There is NO feasible way to get a market sample of what the average Pandora user wants in the way of SD cards.


TL;DR:

 

[Exophase]

I agree, the statistics aren't very good so far, but it's not like anyone knew how many people would vote before the thing started. Besides, it has only been going a short time, who knows how many people will vote in the next year or so. But maybe if OPT wants real market research (if they actually care? I dunno..) they could send out e-mail surveys to the people who bought them.


What I don't agree with, and never have agreed with, is that only people who want to vote for an extreme, who feel "strongly" bother to vote at all. You're saying that casual forum-goers who see this thread are going to look at over then decide it's not worth voting for? Why exactly would people do that? And what bias do you see in how the choices were worded? And why do you think that this perform has a higher bias towards SD performance vs the overall Pandora-buying market? I'd expect a much bigger motivation towards wanting full SD support is so that people can reuse their full SD cards..


Limited statistics are worse than thorough statistics, but they're better than completely random assumptions. That is, if you look at them with their limitations in mind.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Thing is though how often does one take out the sd cards anyways.only to add new software really.Most of the time the sdcard stays in the slot or it does for me anyways si i dont see too much problems losing the micro sdcards at least.

 

[mrclow]

Barring any roadbumps like addressable ranges, won't SD always have larger capacities than microSD because it has more physical area?


The only advantage to microSD is thickness and that's not really an issue here.


I vote SD or bust.

 

[urisma]

You're saying that casual forum-goers who see this thread are going to look at over then decide it's not worth voting for? Why exactly would people do that?

For some, yes. For a voluntary response surveys (like this one) the people who care more are more likely to vote and vice versa. There's very little incentive to vote (immediate incentive at least. The fact that you might help sway the P2's configuration to your own favor can be considered an incentive, but definitely not immediate), and therefore less people will fill it out, regardless of how little time and effort it may take. That's of course not necessarily a bad thing, as the people who don't care as much would probably buy the P2 no matter the SD card configuration.

And what bias do you see in how the choices were worded?

My concern with question wording stems really from me being a nitpicker. IMO, optimal results for finding SD configurations would come simply from asking people "What configuration would be best?" "3x microSD / 2x microSD 1x SD / 1x microSD 2x SD / 3x SD" and only allowing one answer, rather than asking a yes/no for whether or not microSD would make or break the deal. I think you get a more fair answer from asking what is best rather than what sucks the least.

And why do you think that this perform has a higher bias towards SD performance vs the overall Pandora-buying market? I'd expect a much bigger motivation towards wanting full SD support is so that people can reuse their full SD cards..

This comes more from an observation than anything else. I don't know how the overall pandora market cares about SD cards (and I did not consider SD resuse at all, honestly, which could be a major factor). From what I have observed, mobile platforms are going microSD exclusively, and these are the sort of platforms that the P2 would be competing against, so it'd be a safe assumption to say that someone buying the P2 probably has a few microSD cards. Of course, the pandora is a niche market, and the people who would buy it would probably be willing to fork over more money for better quality full sized SD cards as well.


As per this community in particular, I'd consider it the enthusiasts of the enthusiasts, if you will. The Pandora is an enthusiast console already, and if you spend a fair time on the forum dedicated to the Pandora (I'm sure many owners do and many owners don't), then it's safe to assume you're more of an enthusiast than a Pandora owner that doesn't frequent the forums. Of course it's not true in all cases (and we'll never get the actual numbers), but I do think it's a reasonable assumption. With that in mind, I think the enthusiastic enthusiasts (Pandora owning forum frequenters) would be more wanting of full sized SDs than a non forum frequenting owner. That's not to say that a normal non forum frequenting owner wouldn't care, they probably do. I'm just saying that the online community probably cares more.

Limited statistics are worse than thorough statistics, but they're better than completely random assumptions. That is, if you look at them with their limitations in mind.

True, but there's only so much useful data that can be extracted. Perhaps if these threads get into the few hundreds of votes then some more statistically significant things will be found.

 

[Grench]

A primary use for my Pandora is in reviewing pictures and video coming off of my cameras. If I can't pop the SD card from one to the other - it's no longer a 'device of interest' to me. You're all welcome to your own purchase decisions. The design team needs to know' date=' though, that if they go microSD, they will risk loosing a big chunk of the photography and beyond-gaming purchasers & users of their device. I can't make a microSD slot accept a full size SD card. I'm not about to give up the capacity and capabilities of the full size cards for other devices.[/quote']

Well, is he right?

Yes.


Regardless of how representative the sample is, it is still indicative that, "they will risk loosing a big chunk..."


You can use microSD in a SD device just fine - and there is no valid reason I've seen to protest the use of full sized SD hardware. Adapters are readily available. If you require microSD, then the device would still work for you if it had full sized ports.


I -can't- make an SD card fit in a microSD slot. I require full sized SD slots. Apparently there is a fair chunk of other users who feel similarly. If the device only has microSD slots, then it looses critical functionality for a fairly substantial number of users - regardless of whether the sample is accurate or representative. The, "Well, is he right?" question, that you asked, so far is, "Yes, there is a 'chunk' of users who require full sized ports." Whether that is really 25% or 50% is irrelevant - the existence of users beyond myself with these requirements has been proven.

 

[Exophase]

For some, yes. For a voluntary response surveys (like this one) the people who care more are more likely to vote and vice versa. There's very little incentive to vote (immediate incentive at least. The fact that you might help sway the P2's configuration to your own favor can be considered an incentive, but definitely not immediate), and therefore less people will fill it out, regardless of how little time and effort it may take. That's of course not necessarily a bad thing, as the people who don't care as much would probably buy the P2 no matter the SD card configuration.

I dunno. You took the time to go to the forum, see the topic that poses a personal question to the viewer, click on it and see a very straightforward question and decide it's too much effort for you to answer it?


We're not talking about having to circle numbers and mail in a form, of having to agree to waste an unknown amount of time dealing with someone who called your house. This question is not even something you have to even think about it; by the time you've decided you don't really care you already have your answer (it's the first one). Why would you then not select it and press the submit button?


The incentive to vote is the feeling of giving the bare minimum level of participation to some forum you're viewing, and that little subconscious thought of being helpful.

My concern with question wording stems really from me being a nitpicker. IMO, optimal results for finding SD configurations would come simply from asking people "What configuration would be best?" "3x microSD / 2x microSD 1x SD / 1x microSD 2x SD / 3x SD" and only allowing one answer, rather than asking a yes/no for whether or not microSD would make or break the deal. I think you get a more fair answer from asking what is best rather than what sucks the least.

But you're not talking about wording, you're talking about asking a totally different question. The "will you buy it or not" part is key here; I don't want to know what people prefer, I want to know what they're willing to tolerate (and IMO OPT should want to know this too). The whole thread came about because Grench said that a significant number of people won't buy the Pandora if it only had microSD slots. Personally I found this claim incredulous and made this thread with the expectation of proving him wrong, but it turns out he may have been on to something afterall (so if there was any conductor bias it'd be the opposite of what you're claiming)

This comes more from an observation than anything else. I don't know how the overall pandora market cares about SD cards (and I did not consider SD resuse at all, honestly, which could be a major factor). From what I have observed, mobile platforms are going microSD exclusively, and these are the sort of platforms that the P2 would be competing against, so it'd be a safe assumption to say that someone buying the P2 probably has a few microSD cards. Of course, the pandora is a niche market, and the people who would buy it would probably be willing to fork over more money for better quality full sized SD cards as well.

As per this community in particular, I'd consider it the enthusiasts of the enthusiasts, if you will. The Pandora is an enthusiast console already, and if you spend a fair time on the forum dedicated to the Pandora (I'm sure many owners do and many owners don't), then it's safe to assume you're more of an enthusiast than a Pandora owner that doesn't frequent the forums. Of course it's not true in all cases (and we'll never get the actual numbers), but I do think it's a reasonable assumption. With that in mind, I think the enthusiastic enthusiasts (Pandora owning forum frequenters) would be more wanting of full sized SDs than a non forum frequenting owner. That's not to say that a normal non forum frequenting owner wouldn't care, they probably do. I'm just saying that the online community probably cares more.

I think this conclusion is tenuous.. Pandora itself can't take advantage of faster than average SD cards and rarely do you hear people complain about it.. so why would you think that the Pandora userbase has a special interest in SD speed? Pandora itself is pretty dated, why would its community of people willing to make that compromise accept no compromises for microSD performance?


Besides that, I stand by my assertion that microSD = always slower is a myth (you can easily see this changing already), but I don't put it past a lot of people to buy into this.

 

[Klumpen]

One point of downwards compatibility is the ability to use your mediastorages from the previous version.


What should we do with all these high capacity sd-cards, when everyone thinks, that smaller is always better?


I even do not think, that the pandora should be any smaller, than it is now.


There is a good reason for the big size of good controllers and this is import for handhelds too.


Besides, such small cards can get lost too fast and may indeed always be slower in regard to the capacity.


We got these 128gb and 256gb SD-Cards in some topics now and i do not think, that there is something with the same speed in microSD,


this can be wrong of course.

 

[Aurekana]

Besides, such small cards can get lost too fast and may indeed always be slower in regard to the capacity.


We got these 128gb and 256gb SD-Cards in some topics now and i do not think, that there is something with the same speed in microSD,


this can be wrong of course.

As far as I can tell from some searching and research, seems like fullSD and microSD have similar read/write speeds. The major difference and downside of microSD cards is that fullSD always seems to have at least twice the maximum capacity at any given time.

 

[Klumpen]

Well if you like to play PSX or SegaCD and want to hear some more music or audiobooks and watch some xvid/divx on your journeys, you like to have the biggest capacities available at a decent price.


Thinking of QEMU, you might want to have a bit more too.

 

[SNESFAN]

I like the internal microsd and dual full sd external idea. As long as they allow to boot to whatever media drive you want and possibly set the order yourself i see all complaints agianst that idea almost selfish in a way.


One thing for sure removeable media > onboard nand. Just for the simple fact of the current nand size is kind of limiting.


There are also file systems like ext4 that would be great for performance but bad on flash, you take a cheap 2gb class 10 card and run it for a year and throw it away if it wears out. They are increadabily cheap


I didnt vote but could care less if they went full or micro. Id still buy it regardless... if someone wont buy it because they cant have the most bleeding edge media right when it comes out instead of waiting 6-12 months (if that is even the case in the future) might i remind you that the other technologies in this thing will only stay bleeding edge for about 6-12 months its self at the very most. There is a point of good enough... and when you are compareing flash media formats... either is good enough imo


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