Pandora OS Update hangs

[gotwake424]

You gotta remember, some of us mods are just casual users who just want to help out on a forum. Its not like we know everything / anything about the Pandora anyway as there's always major changes on their way.


Kumaki: Try going to Terminal and typing passwd, type your old password and then type a new one. If the old password doesn't work then you'll need to reflash (Sorry!)

I don't think anyone here expect the mods to know "everything" 

But basic knowledge of "linux" and the pandora in general would be nice 

 

[sswam]

I have no problem at all with a mod asking questions or expressing fraustration or using mild course language or caps. The mod is allowed to do normal member things too. If it's not green, she's not being a mod at that moment okay?

I do have a problem with people attacking a mod, off-topic, in a Support thread. Go play GTA and stop bothering her please, if you can't be helpful. If you must complain, please do it in an appropriate place.

None of the superior-linux-skillz people above, offered much in the way of helpful advice.


Show some gratitude. This person volunteers her time and effort to keep you trouble-making chuckle-heads in line (ED excepted ). She is I say doing a good job. Be nice to her and your other benevolent mods, or fear my righteous wrath. )D

As for the wifi password keyring thing, that is not a "noob problem", it happened to me too on desktop Linux and Pandora.

I think it is bad design and very annoying. There was a recent thread about it, as you know.

In gnome (at one time) it happens when a user changes their password.  How stupid is that, it won't let you change your password without causing a massive headache!!

I highly recommend the unencrypted / blank password option, that is what I did when this issue bit me.


For that, type in terminal - NB this will kill some of your saved passwords including wifi password, and you will have to enter them again:


cd
rm .gnome2/keyrings/*.keyring 
Then, next time it asks you to make a keyring and enter password to protect it, leave the password blank, and accept the warning. This is spelled out more or less, in Yoshi's post.

You are right to be angry about this, I know I was - several times.  This interminable keyring password nag can really annoy our users.  And the solution is annoying too, since it trashes all the passwords.

We should ship the firmware with unencryped keyrings, I think, and provide a "disenfuckulate and decrypt keyring" script too if possible, if not a "delete keyring" script.

People who are concerned about their wifi password can put password on login, to keep people out of their Pandora.

 

[sswam]

It takes a lot more than casual knowledge of linux to fathom this gnome keyring bullshit.

also, regarding the Christing long updates

(I like that adjective, by the way!),

the re-flash might be faster.

The update tool unpacks a whole lot of packages and that can be slow.

How long did it actually take, when it worked?

 

[Exophase]

I have no problem at all with a mod asking questions or expressing fraustration or using mild course language or caps. The mod is allowed to do normal member things too. If it's not green, she's not being a mod at that moment okay?


I do have a problem with people attacking a mod, off-topic, in a Support thread. Go play GTA and stop bothering her please, if you can't be helpful. If you want to complain do it in the appropriate place, if any.

It sounds like you're saying that Kumaki should be given the same latitude in expressing herself that we'd give any normal poster.. but that people shouldn't criticize her (you call it attack, but that's pretty subjective) because she's a mod. Sounds like a double standard. If she's not being a mod at the moment why should she be treated any differently, if indeed it makes sense to treat mods differently in the first place?


Leave the GTA quip out of it, this has nothing to do with it. Okay, maybe that comment would make sense in the GTA thread but the people posting here are posting something entirely different, and even ED asked her to chill out.. are you saying he was out of line too?


If you don't have a problem with her caps that's fine, and I (sincerely) appreciate that you put that as just you personally being okay with it. I do have a problem with it, and wanted to say something for a while but was always concerned that it wasn't really the right place (and I didn't want to send a PM because those can be intimidating and awkward too). I don't think I would have said anything if I didn't think a lot of people had a problem with it, and I can't really say for sure that they do, I'm just basing this on what I've seen regarding feelings of netiquette from a lot of people online over a long time.


That's not really the last line on the topic.. and I'm going to say this because I think it applies to more people here than Kumaki. Sometimes when you're having a difficult time with software you get frustrated and want to express that, we get it. But when you make a thread sounding overly angry, impatient, and critical of software not working it makes it harder for people to want to help you. And when you do it as a mod then yes, you are setting a worse example because you're implicitly showing that the moderation team promotes this kind of behavior. If you want help it really pays to sound calm, thorough/descriptive, and objective, no matter how irritated you are. You have to give people the impression that you're willing to sit down and listen and not potentially yell at them.

Show some gratitude. This person volunteers her time and effort to keep you trouble-making chuckle-heads in line (ED excepted ). She is I say doing a good job. Be nice to her and your other benevolent mods, or fear my righteous wrath. )D

Huh, this seems a lot like your post in that Craig thread.. I'm trying to get a grasp on how you think about this stuff.. if I give you $1000, or some other suitable amount of money, or volunteer my time to you for some purpose, or improve your life in some way - am I excused to treat you like garbage from there on out? Usually people don't think that just because someone did something nice, or sacrificed something, or is an all around swell person that they should be above criticism and complaint when they're not doing a good job with something else. It doesn't mean they're not showing gratitude, although honestly I don't hold volunteer forum modding as some big selfless humanitarian deed.. people tend to be borderline begging to have that honor. They wanted it, I expect them to do a good job and do it without praise and thanks, if that's a problem they can give it to the next willing person.

As for the wifi password keyring thing, that is not a "noob problem", it happened to me too on desktop Linux and Pandora.


I think it is bad design and very annoying. There was a recent thread about it, as you know.


In gnome (at one time) it happens when a user changes their password.  How stupid is that, it won't let you change your password without causing a massive headache!!

Hey, the people who did Pandora's OS worked hard and spent a lot of time on it, show some gratitude why don't you, instead of calling it stupid..[/irony] (fwiw I think this criticism is pretty valid ;p)

 

[moxie]

Without getting into the specific case, I (and the rest of the mods, unless I've completely misunderstood them) agree with Exophase here: You should not have any special treatment just because you're a moderator. If anything, you should be held to a higher standard, since (as was also said) as a moderator you are in a way representing what the preferred discussion climate should be like. I don't know if there is any particular perks one should have for being a mod (apart from the FEELING OF POWER THAT FLOWS THROUGH...*ahem* sorry bout that), but not being told off when being out of line is most certainly not one of them, at any rate.

 

[sswam]

It sounds like you're saying that Kumaki should be given the same latitude in expressing herself that we'd give any normal poster.. but that people shouldn't criticize her

"take it easy" in PM or even in public is an okay "criticism";

"stop being a mod" in public, not so much.

I find that totally rude and unacceptable.

Another mod, if doing their job, might moderate her post and remove some of the anger.

Someone might report the post, so that would happen.  That is okay.

I don't expect mods to be saints.  That is unrealistic.

even ED asked her to chill out.. are you saying he was out of line too?

In my opinion a mod should not have to be on "best behaviour" all the time.

This is not fucking Catholic school-girls forum.  No one behaves so saintly here.

We enjoy a bit of rough talk and emotion.  Not so much the bitching and drama, but hey.

So yes, I disagree with EvilDragon in this instance.

I wouldn't say "out of line", he's just trying to keep the other people happy I guess.


You don't like capital letters?

So send a PM to the people in question respectfully asking

"please don't use CAPITAL LETTERS too much (it makes me sad / nervous / sounds angry / whatever)".


Perhaps if everyone will be pleasant to Kumaki for a few weeks then she will not get so angry with her firmware updates.

Too much disrespect, and still a lack of strong moderation to control it.

Hey, the people who did Pandora's OS worked hard and spent a lot of time on it, show some gratitude why don't you, instead of calling it stupid..[/irony] (fwiw I think this criticism is pretty valid ;p)

I'm blaming the gnome(-keyring) people. But yeah, it's just an annoyance not a good reason to CURSE GNOME FOREVER!!!

If you want to argue further please PM me because all this off-topic shit should be removed from an otherwise mildly useful thread.

 

[sswam]

You should not have any special treatment just because you're a moderator.

Seems like they get specially abused, I didn't see any special good treatment that's for sure.  It might be nice.

 

[Exophase]

I don't know how things are over there, or how you feel about this personally, but in this society people consider it a highly protected right to be able to criticize authority in public. And that includes questioning their suitability to hold that position of authority.

I know this forum isn't a democracy nor are the mods voted in, and I know no one's trying to mirror society at large. But the principal is similar and has a lot of merit here. If people aren't allowed to complain about those who hold power over them then I hope this is blatantly clear so they can choose to post elsewhere before they get caught up in moderation they can't challenge.

I said this already but there's a reason why I didn't send Kumaki a PM to complain about it. I wanted it to be presented in a place where it can be corroborated by other posters because if it isn't a widespread and public problem then it doesn't matter - should Kumaki care about what one person alone feels about her posting style? Probably not. And I feel like sending out a PM makes the whole thing feel more personalized and singling out, like you're taking the effort to elevate an established discussion to something more personal. I don't know how everyone else feels but I do know that if I feel awkward about sending someone a PM for something like this it'll impact my ability to communicate it. But bear in mind I also didn't feel comfortable bringing it up in topics before. In this case I finally did feel like it was relevant and appropriate.

And no, I'm not moving anything to PM just because it's off topic. This is one of those long standing forum principles that I don't agree with at all. Forum discussion is not about sticking neatly to one allocated topic. Unless someone is posting a  total non-sequitor that has nothing to do with anything previously said then it's following some natural fork in the thread. And it could be useful and valuable. Or not - maybe the original post wasn't either. There's some merit to splitting off threads but good mods should do that - starting a new thread without the preceding posts will all but guarantee to kill that conversation (seen it happen over and over again), and no one wants to take something to PM if they wanted to have a discussion that involved more than just talking to one person.

One thing I can say is that of all the people I've seen tell people to stay on topic I've never once seen one who actually routinely does it themselves. Including mods.

 

[Null]

This is not fucking Catholic school-girls forum.

That'll explain why I got all those warning points.

 

[moxie]

You should not have any special treatment just because you're a moderator.

Seems like they get specially abused, I didn't see any special good treatment that's for sure.  It might be nice.

Yep. Don't apply unless you enjoy the rough stuff

But seriously, the position as moderator means you wield power. Possibly not of great consequence to the world at large, but to the microcosm of the forum, at least. If I do stupid shit as a normal user, I just show myself as being stupid (and will hopefully get handcuffed fairly quickly by the mods). If I do the same as a moderator, I might cause rather a lot of trouble (to our forum-microcosm, that is). I can edit people posts to make it look like they've said things they haven't, block people from accessing the forums, even change their profile details. That is tools for quite a lot of troublemaking that is put in my (or any other moderators) hands. With that as a given, it is a no-brainer that forum members have the right to criticize mods or have and express opinions on the suitability for one or another person to be a moderator.  This is a "position of trust" (förtroendeuppdrag, in swedish ), and as such the members must be able to discuss and express whether they do trust the person in that position.

Apart from that, we are all supposed to play along with the forum rules and general good netiquette. And in those rules there are nothing that says that anyone, mod or not, has to have any particular technical ability. I can't really see how "You don't know how to deal with the magic keyring thingie, so you shouldn't be a mod" makes any sense at all, any more than it would make sense that someone should be banned for not knowing that. It would possibly disqualify one from applying as a member on the OS programming team (had such a team existed as something you applied to), but moderating forums have very little to do with keyrings and encryption.

However, it does say that we should behave respectfully and so on (of course, right now when I'm writing the forum rules post seems to have disappeared down into the bowels of the server), which includes not SCREAMING, not bossing other people about or calling them names, and in general not be d*cks. If someone repeatedly does this, be it a moderator or an ordinary member, it is a reasonable ground for criticism, and eventually warning points and so on. That goes (again) equally for everyone on the boards, regardless of privilege bits.

And this, of course, is a valid complaint towards a mod - Your task is to uphold board order and civility, and how can we trust you to do that with others if you don't do it yourself?  In this case, it is directly applicable on the "position of trust" that we have, and that is why moderators would have to be held to a higher standard  here than "ordinary" members. Whether that is reason enough in itself to un-mod someone might be debatable, but it is a debate that must be able to be openly held (or that one might, if one is not comfortable with confronting someone straight on, be lifted to the collective moderators by using the report button).

Indeed, in such a case I feel (but now I'm talking only for myself, for this is not something we have discussed amongst the moderators) that it should be discussed openly when it comes to moderators, whilst it might be preferred to just use the report for ordinary members - The "position of trust" thing, again. 

Ah, well. My thoughts on the matter. In addition to this, I agree wholeheartedly with most all of what Exophase said, both when it comes to the most useful way to get help and support, about "keeping on-topic", and a bunch of other stuff. Exophase is a wise man.

 

[notaz]

Maybe this pnd could help solving potential root cause of the problem?

http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=pcalendar

 

[mcobit]

lol

 

[EvilDragon]

that was mean

But seriously, no one expects a mod to know everything, nor to never get angry, but mods basically are reference people for other members, so a mod needs to take a deep breath and calm down before posting when he or she is angry.

 

[skeezix]

Kumaki is a bit of a 'noob', but thats okay; we've all been there. Yes, she should play it cool and not the 'I'm a newb, please help me!' in all caps. Fine, she'll get there

What I sort of take issue with, is the relatively frequent reminder of this.. Dredds wrath. Come on a bit, its not a power trip to be a mod.. its a service humbly offered. (That said, there has to be some fun in it, since its a 'thankless job'. And hey, at least its in character for you, and a known part of your 'charm' Still, it seems a frequent them.. be nice, or I will mod your ass

Anyway, man, this is all too serious a set of posts

Show some gratitude. This person volunteers her time and effort to keep you trouble-making chuckle-heads in line (ED excepted ). She is I say doing a good job. Be nice to her and your other benevolent mods, or fear my righteous wrath. )

 

[_wb_]

Maybe this pnd could help solving potential root cause of the problem?

http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=pcalendar

I appreciate the joke, and I consider it to be funny too (mostly the fact that there is such a PND on the repo in the first place, that's rather funny in itself already), but...

This is a (mild) form of sexism. If you (notaz or anyone else) are considering to further explore this type of jokes or statements, be warned. I'll let this one slide, but it was very close to "the line" as far as I'm concerned. Sexism is not allowed on this forum. 

 

[mcobit]

Maybe this pnd could help solving potential root cause of the problem?

http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=pcalendar

 This is a (mild) form of sexism. If you (notaz or anyone else) are considering to further explore this type of jokes or statements, be warned. I'll let this one slide, but it was very close to "the line" as far as I'm concerned. Sexism is not allowed on this forum. 

Mild form of sexism???


Stop this bullshit _wb_. It is a joke! There are jokes about horsepenises on this forum and you are REALLY warning notaz because he made a statement about a monthly bodyfunction of a woman?

 

[hitbyambulance]

i agree; it's an appropriate use of a warning. the 'joke' was over the line.

 

[_wb_]

Maybe this pnd could help solving potential root cause of the problem?

http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=pcalendar

 This is a (mild) form of sexism. If you (notaz or anyone else) are considering to further explore this type of jokes or statements, be warned. I'll let this one slide, but it was very close to "the line" as far as I'm concerned. Sexism is not allowed on this forum.

Mild form of sexism???


Stop this bullshit _wb_. It is a joke! There are jokes about horsepenises on this forum and you are REALLY warning notaz because he made a statement about a monthly bodyfunction of a woman?

You can talk and joke about menstruation all you want, but it's something else to invoke it as an "explanation", even just jokingly, for the behavior of someone who happens to be a woman. I consider the latter to be (mildly) sexist, yes. Just like I would consider invoking, out of the blue, someone's skin color, nationality, sexual orientation, etc., even if only jokingly, to be racist, xenophobic, homophobic, etc.

The stuff about horse penis in anus on this forum is very close to the line of what is acceptable. If those statements would have referred to some person in particular (which they did not), they would certainly warrant a warning as well.

 

[Exophase]

Mild form of sexism???

Stop this bullshit _wb_. It is a joke! There are jokes about horsepenises on this forum and you are REALLY warning notaz because he made a statement about a monthly bodyfunction of a woman?

I'm going to have to side with _wb_ on this one, not that I think notaz intended anything bad by this..
Maybe it's a cultural thing but here if you respond to a woman that's upset that it "must be that time of the month" it's considered pretty insulting and sexist, even if it's just a joke. And Kumaki is American so I don't know if it sounded too good to her.. Think about it, it's basically dismissing someone's feelings by saying they're pretty much invalid/irrational and saying that women can't control their PMS..

 

[Kumaki]

You gotta remember, some of us mods are just casual users who just want to help out on a forum. Its not like we know everything / anything about the Pandora anyway as there's always major changes on their way.


Kumaki: Try going to Terminal and typing passwd, type your old password and then type a new one. If the old password doesn't work then you'll need to reflash (Sorry!)

I don't think anyone here expect the mods to know "everything" 

But basic knowledge of "linux" and the pandora in general would be nice 

Neither is required for Modding.

In fact, it's almost better if folk like me ARE doing the Modding...so that the people who can code their way out of a paper bag - which I can't...can concentrate on offering suppoprt and help to idiots like me...and of course, doing coding projects we can all enjoy.

Modding takes time and effort.  Why would you want folk who could do better things with their time doing it?

I became a Mod for one reason only:  It was the one thing I could do to give back to a community that has given me much.  I gave others a much-needed break from Modding duties...and freed those people up to do what they are good at.  Coding, not good here.  The technology has nearly moved past me entirely.

I can do anything if someone TELLS me what to do, and a lot I can bumble thru and figure out.

But none of this knowledge is required fro Modding.  Why would somebody think that this stuff was needed for MODDING?  It isn't as if I am giving support and advice to people with regards to making things work on the Pandy...that is not a Mod's job description.