Pandora A,b,x,y Button Placement Not Emu Friendly?

[Squidge]

Maybe we can get Craigix to waste some money on tiny OLED displays for each action button, then they can be labelled as appropriate for each application

 

[Samalthos]

Scenario:
You don't like Pandora's Button Layout

Solution:
Cut the freaking cross sections re-arrange or paint new Characters on the buttons and get on with life

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and some won't like the design. But instead of fighting actually sit down and try and think up a solution to your problem and post that.

 

[chad78]

Scenario:
You don't like Pandora's Button Layout

Solution:
Cut the freaking cross sections re-arrange or paint new Characters on the buttons and get on with life

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and some won't like the design. But instead of fighting actually sit down and try and think up a solution to your problem and post that.

That won't help anything. Now the Pandora native apps are all fucked up when they give instructions. By having its own unique lettering system - the native apps will all be correctly labeled and correctly mapped - and *every* emulated program will be technically "wrong" because there is no "A" or "X" (except on the keyboard) - but they will be equally wrong, and you won't be told to hit "X" and know there is an "X" but it's not the right "X". That's the difference. That's why it is far worse to be labeled ABXY than NSEW or FGHJ because there's no confusion there. You obviously can't look at the buttons to find out what to press. But if I'm using the GUI and the native apps for a while with "A" at the top over and over and over again - and then I switch to a NES game and I"m told to "Press A to continue" - well when I hit "A" nothing happens. But if there was no "A" just an "E" - then I'd hit the right button because I knew it meant the NES A not the Pandora A (which there was none).

 

[Samalthos]

Scenario:
You don't like Pandora's Button Layout

Solution:
Cut the freaking cross sections re-arrange or paint new Characters on the buttons and get on with life

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and some won't like the design. But instead of fighting actually sit down and try and think up a solution to your problem and post that.

That won't help anything. Now the Pandora native apps are all fucked up when they give instructions. By having its own unique lettering system - the native apps will all be correctly labeled and correctly mapped - and *every* emulated program will be technically "wrong" because there is no "A" or "X" (except on the keyboard) - but they will be equally wrong, and you won't be told to hit "X" and know there is an "X" but it's not the right "X". That's the difference. That's why it is far worse to be labeled ABXY than NSEW or FGHJ because there's no confusion there. You obviously can't look at the buttons to find out what to press. But if I'm using the GUI and the native apps for a while with "A" at the top over and over and over again - and then I switch to a NES game and I"m told to "Press A to continue" - well when I hit "A" nothing happens. But if there was no "A" just an "E" - then I'd hit the right button because I knew it meant the NES A not the Pandora A (which there was none).


So you Tell the Pandora that your setup IS Native. But I do Understand what you are saying and not all of us have the know how to do something like this (I know I don't, i'm just the idea man) Everything you want is doable all you have to do is Map correctly and/or label your buttons they way you like it and/or make sure the (OS, GUI, App, EMU) Knows what you mean (Type/Press) I think the NSEW setup is Doable but people are just afraid or unwilling to make a change from what they know.

 

[Sphinxter]

To me it's this simple: There are two major button labeling schemes that come natural: Playstation symbol-based, and SNES style.

I could adapt to a new layout easily. It's not the most difficult thing to do, and if it's something familiar, then there's even less of an issue. Where I start taking issue, is when the layout uses the same letters as another controller, but in a different order. I absolutely despise Xbox-style controllers because of this, and I am not to keen on Pandora either. It's easy to get used to a new setup, but much more difficult to rearrange a layout that has been ingrained into your brain since early childhood.

Plus, I think that "Because the GP2x did it" is a horrible reason, and that the sample used to take those polls are a little skewed, mostly because the non-gp2x crowd are not represented. I don't own one. And so, when I first found that this was going to be the layout of the buttons, I thought to myself "That's horrible inconvenient. Why the hell would they do something so confusing?" I mean sure, this is going to mostly cater to the hardcore group, but I think you're selling the product short if you make decisions that will alienate those of us who has never entered the homebrew gaming scene.

It's because that's how the pandora does it. I've never owned an nes or a ps?, wouldn't recognize them if handed to me but I seriously doubt it would take me more than two hits to figure out how the four buttons work in any game. Hard to believe it would ever be a problem for even Chad, not exactly going from dvorak to qwerty there. To turn their back on their roots, that would be the real shame. Some people don't care about the amiga and a few have no idea what it even is but the keyboard and dual analogs are there to stay. Some traditions must be preserved just because they are traditions.

 

[gruso]

The labels do matter, because they're so open to interpretation by devs that everything becomes inconsistent. Does no one else get frustrated with the constantly changing default/action button on the GP2X? This is a direct result of the buttons being labelled in a completely non-intuitive way.

B is the action button in menus, X is back/cancel. Some games follow this. Some games use X as the default button. Some games use A. What the frack! I love my '2X, but if there's one thing that makes it feel dodgy, it's having to guess the damn button layout in every app.

This doesn't happen on "big name" consoles because:

(i) Devs are given certain standards to stick to.

(ii) Intuitive button labelling (ie sequentially labelled buttons that follow the movement of your thumb) make sticking to these standards a no-brainer. A to B is intuitive, X to B is not.


Item (i) is not viable on Pandora, but in the absence of (ii), perhaps a guideline could be written up to "suggest" to devs some of the basic button functions? I don't want Pandora buttons to be an adventure in guesswork like on the GP2X.

 

[astro]

Item (i) is not viable on Pandora, but in the absence of (ii), perhaps a guideline could be written up to "suggest" to devs some of the basic button functions? I don't want Pandora buttons to be an adventure in guesswork like on the GP2X.

To me that was part of the fun of running a GP2X a little bit of guess work is fun. Lets face it if that was'nt the case this forum would of died years ago. I love a bit of tinkering to get emus working or do Pandora people want it all out of the BOX.

 

[gruso]

I like tinkering too, I just hate it when I put my car in Drive and it backs into the wall.

I have a thing for intuitive interfaces, it's almost a fetish.

 

[aatu]

At least if we don't like this version we could always open up the Pandora and rearrange them :>

Hmm, this has come up few times before. I was just wondering, does it really HAVE the possibility to rearrange the buttons? Because I have Logitech Wingman Cordless Rumblepad, and once upon a time I had to open it up and at the same time I noticed that the buttons were physically "keyed", probably to prevent the buttons from rotating. But just for kicks they keyed all six (ABC XYZ) buttons differently, so that it was impossible to rearrange them.
(But if it's indeed possible to rearrange the buttons, then that's good enough for me.)

And I think even the labels matter ("layout" is more describing, so I'll keep using that). I don't like the compass design, but GP2X ain't any better.

And to both compass&GP2X fans: we don't need to be something "different and extraordinaire". This machine already has what it needs to become noticed, we don't need to go overboard... And if we want community-driven layout, then poll is basically the only way to go. But like Exophase already stated, there already were at least two polls, and Nintendo-layout won. One could even argue that GP2X had extra advantage: guests (people most likely NOT to vote GP2X) can't vote, meanwhile majority of current members have already dabbled with GP2X. (basically what Gilrad also said)

But I have to say, the layout won't be the dealbreaker, so we don't need to worry about losing customers. But right layout would make users have more positive memories on this device. We now have the chance to drop the GP2X layout, and I think we should do it. Or did I misunderstand something? I thought the button layout was one of the "mistakes" GP2X had, and that the community didn't like it but just had to get used to it over time.

And ok, there's traditions and respect for predecessors and then there's plain inpracticality. If the layout blows, we shouldn't keep it along just because it was already there.

Ok, solutions: Optimus Maximus (only 4 buttons, main concerns are power and space)
Better solution: Polls (at least majority is happy)

But even more importantly, is this even relevant anymore? As in can they even change it anymore? This was asked in some other thread, but I don't think anybody gave anything concrete...

 

[atomicthumbs]

*every* emulated program will be technically "wrong" because there is no "A" or "X" (except on the keyboard) - but they will be equally wrong, and you won't be told to hit "X" and know there is an "X" but it's not the right "X".

Funny how nobody had that problem with the GP2X. I think that people are smart enough that they don't need a warning whenever the system starts up that says:

"WARNING! CAN CAUSE SEIZURES, EYE STRAIN, CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME, STARVATION, AND SCROFULA! BUTTONS ON THE SCREEN MAY NOT BE CORRECTLY ASSIGNED TO BUTTONS ON THE HARDWARE! DO NOT USE WHEN DANGEROUS TO USE!"

 

[Alex.]

By having its own unique lettering system - the native apps will all be correctly labeled and correctly mapped - and *every* emulated program will be technically "wrong" because there is no "A" or "X" (except on the keyboard) - but they will be equally wrong, and you won't be told to hit "X" and know there is an "X" but it's not the right "X". That's the difference. That's why it is far worse to be labeled ABXY than NSEW or FGHJ because there's no confusion there.

I have yet to come across an emulator that doesn't let you reconfigure its button mapping: meaning that pressing the button physically labeled 'A' would register 'A' in SNES, Genesis, and Gameboy all the same. It's NSEW or FGHJ that would do more harm then good, because then you would have to memorize the physical button layout of each system you're emulating.

 

[magicman5421]

The reason that nobody had a problem with it on the GP2X was that everyone who owned a GP2X was smart enough to be able to figure it out. However, since the Pandora is targeting a larger demographic, there are going to be people who will be confused by the different button layout. I can see someone loading up an emu and saying that it doesn't work because when they press the button that they are most familiar with as "a", nothing happens (or it goes back in which case they would be even more surprised.) If we are going to keep the current button layout, there should at least be a paragraph in the manual saying "pandora's button layout is different. It'll take a little getting used to, but you can do it."
Edit:
And as a response to the above, at least use something that complies with _some_ console. bxya doesn't conform to anything but the gp2x. Playing ps1 you will have the same problem.

 

[.Gogeta§§J4BR.]

Maybe we can get Craigix to waste some money on tiny OLED displays for each action button, then they can be labelled as appropriate for each application

that would be expensive but awesome

 

[Nilsiboy]

Funny how nobody had that problem with the GP2X. I think that people are smart enough that they don't need a warning whenever the system starts up that says:

"WARNING! CAN CAUSE SEIZURES, EYE STRAIN, CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME, STARVATION, AND SCROFULA! BUTTONS ON THE SCREEN MAY NOT BE CORRECTLY ASSIGNED TO BUTTONS ON THE HARDWARE! DO NOT USE WHEN DANGEROUS TO USE!"

Funny how I said basically the same on top of the third page of this thread
Guess it kinda got lost in the responses to Chad's post >.>

 

[JakeK]

Five minutes of learning where the buttons are is all it takes.

 

[Gilrad]

Five minutes of learning where the buttons are is all it takes.

And again, I say it's not exactly easy with ~15 years worth of training using a gamepad that has the EXACT SAME LETTERS. It was my main beef with Xbox controllers. If it says press Y, I automatically go to the SNES equivalent. If I even hear 'square' in context to video game controls, I know exactly where it is. Trying to break the ABYX habit is going to be nothing short of an unnecessary, annoying, and easily avoided uphill battle.

I guess to clarify, my biggest issue is going to be translating an on-screen command into a button press. The buttons could be blank for all I care in regards to emulation; I already know where those buttons are. And I'm sure this also goes for just about any other gamer that was raised on an SNES pad.

Of course, this is all useless whinging, because there's maybe a 2% chance that anything will actually change at this point. I'll just consider it their first mistake.

 

[chad78]

So why would the button layout limit it to only GP2X users? Are you not going to get a Pandora?

It won't necessarily - but why cater to such a limited audience?

For a system with no marketing, I think 50,000 units and two versions is a good run. Especially for a small Korean company.

And for a person born without legs, a 2 hour mile is pretty good - but I won't go trying to copy that guy's technique when I prepare for a race.

And "colors" of Game Boys aren't different versions.

I was just trying to limit it even further. To most of the world - the GameBoy Micro was a dismal failure. My point one that even if you just picked the worst selling color of Micro - it would have out sold the GP2X by orders of magnitude.

1. A falling star would be off the ground by default.

My point was - it never succeeded at all - and what little success it did have - IS DYING.

2. As I've said, it did make it off the ground, for a machine in its category.

And the Yugo was the best car ever made in Yugoslavia. But - try to catch this - the CAR STILL SUCKED. It was the "best machine in its category" but it sucked.

You and a few other people. Go ahead; CAD files are included. Machine your own compass-buttons.

That doesn't solve the problem. Placing stickers on it, moving the existing buttons, making my own buttons - none of those fix anything. The Pandora GUI, any and all games and applications made especially for the Pandora will use the buttons that come with the unit.

And the main thing that everyone seems to be missing is - it's not me I'm worried about. It's the millions BILLIONS of people who have never heard of, seen, held, smelled, been in the same area code as, or KNOWN anyone who has ever heard of - the GP2X.

And yet, of those same 6 billion people - a surprisingly high percentage - about 50 million - have actually *OWNED* a SNES - and even more have played them, and even more have heard of them.

I'm not trying to cut down the GP2X - I'm desperately trying to get you to realize it's actual impact on the world as a whole.

4 buttons versus several dozen (or more than a hundred) buttons is not exactly an accurate comparison.

It is when those 4 buttons are the main ones, if not the only ones, I will use when gaming - and gaming is what sets the Pandora apart from any other UMPC on the market (which there are many).

(I compliment you on your use of Flock.)

Thanks - I compliment your catching that.

Yes. A and B are mapped to A and B usually; otherwise you can just hit what makes sense.

That's the problem - you never tell a user to "Hit whatever makes sense." It's not that people are stupid - I am getting offended that everyone keeps talking about how "Smart" the GP2X users are - like the rest of us are idiots. You don't build something and say "If they can't figure out how to use it - they are too stupid for my product!" Bullshit - you are too stupid to design it right in the first place. As a designer - you don't blame the user. You make your device - your GUI - your software - as simple, straightforward, and intuitive as possible - and you document everything. I am sick to death of designers blaming users for being too stupid to use their stupid. Grow up, take some classes on User Interface, or read a damn book - but take some responsibility and figure out YOUR DESIGN SUCKS and fix it. Don't blame the user.

No bet.

Smart man.

That doesn't make any difference, as "GP2X games on the Pandora" will be homebrew Pandora games anyway.

Which is why keeping the keyboard layout makes EVEN LESS SENSE. Those are the ONLY GAMES YOU CAN CHANGE. Why in the hell are you keeping the keyboard layout of the games that can be changed to match the new layout (And say "Press W" or "Press 8" or "Press A" - and actually mean A) instead of matching the keyboard layout of the games that are hardcoded to a given controller setup? It doesn't make any fucking sense.

Why?

I swear to god, I hope you are kidding....

BECAUSE....

If a person - yes, a sane, educated, intelligent person - were to see the word BLUE and I asked them quickly what color it was - they'd say "Blue". Even though, they know what the color red is - and how much it is not the color blue. However, if I showed that same person the word GLUE and asked the what color it was - they'd say "Red". The only difference is one letter - but it takes away the conflicting message in their brain. Now, they don't have the thought of another color in their head. They have the thought of something completely non-color related (yes, glue *has* a color - but it isn't a color itself). The only color word in their head is red.

If a person - yes, a sane, educated, intelligent person - were to see a bunch of buttons - with the label of A B X and Y - and he were told "Press X"... HE'D PRESS X. Even though he knows that the X button on a SNES controller is in a different place than the X that he just pressed. And why shouldn't he? He was following directions.

Now, if that same intelligent, sane, educated human being were given a controller with a similar layout to an SNES controller - and he were told to "Press X" - if the buttons were labeled N S E W - or not labeled at all - there would be no conflict - he would press the button that was in the X position.

If you use the same letters - but in a different posistion - you set up a conflict. That should be PAINFULLY OBVIOUS to anyone reading this thread - that there will be people that are bothered by it. HOWEVER - if you use something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT - then there is no conflict. There's no direct connection, true - but there's no conflicting connection.

See my point?

 

[gruso]

For in-game controls, I agree that button labels don't matter. You spend a few minutes getting used to where your thumbs go, and then it's second nature.

My concern is with emu frontends, menu systems, and all the other homebrew apps having different button layouts. Of course that's the beauty of homebrew, but the beauty of gaming consoles is a consistent operating environment. That's what they're all about.

A well known, logical layout like ABXY invites this kind of consistency.

 

[atomicthumbs]

For in-game controls, I agree that button labels don't matter. You spend a few minutes getting used to where your thumbs go, and then it's second nature.

My concern is with emu frontends, menu systems, and all the other homebrew apps having different button layouts. Of course that's the beauty of homebrew, but the beauty of gaming consoles is a consistent operating environment. That's what they're all about.

A well known, logical layout like ABXY invites this kind of consistency.

And this is why we should have a "Pandora Interface Standards" section on the wiki.

 

[gruso]

And this is why we should have a "Pandora Interface Standards" section on the wiki.
Three thumbs up.