Pandora A,b,x,y Button Placement Not Emu Friendly?

[Sphinxter]

a weird (as in nobody else does it that way) order.

So you've never actually held or even seen a gp2x?

 

[Exophase]

Although I agree that it doesn't really matter, I'd also like to know why the most popular layout (NES style) has been ignored, and instead the GP2X layout was used. I'd prefer if Pandora didn't do things to try to make it look like a GP2X successor.

 

[Prophet]

Anyone else just want buttons that work well?

Label them Paul, John, George and Ringo - as long as they work well!

 

[chad78]

a weird (as in nobody else does it that way) order.

So you've never actually held or even seen a gp2x?

No, I haven't - and I never want to. It's worthless now that the Pandora is on its way. And really has been ever since the PSP costs less than it did and has a thriving homebrew / emu community.

I really don't see me playing a whole lot of GP2X/GP32 games - I'm getting the Pandora for Emus and for UMPC stuff. Emulations of homebrew games ...? Not so much - thanks.

EDIT: I just wanted to point out that I believe the reason the buttons are labeled how they are on the Pandora is so that programs can be ported from the GP2X without needing to change any in-prog text saying "Press Y for [x]" and so forth. And that's a good thing, yeah?

For some people, certainly. For others... not so much. I've spent way too much time on the SNES to ever disassociate it's layout with abxy.


And as I said in the other thread - far more people have used and are used to the SNES than ever could possibly be with the GP2X POS.

QUOTE

If i see a program say 'push the x button' i'm gunna instinctively push the top one.

The best way to avoid any such problems is to come up with something original or unusual. That way you sidestep the whole issue.



Exactly. N S E W FTW!

 

[yaustar]

Isn't the button layout a copyright issue?

 

[chad78]

The most-used button layout ever has a bunch of funny symbols (square, circle, X, triangle) instead of any letters. So much for your "standard"

The "most used" where do you come up with that? PS1, PS2, PS3, PSP? Um - that's all the same company - and pretty much the same controller. SNES - DS - DS Lite - Wii Classic - even the GameCube was just a variation of it, and Hori made a controller for the GC that really pointed that out. And a non-Nintendo Sega DreamCast - used the same layout except the A & B were switched, and the Xbox / 360 did the same layout except the X & Y were reversed.

Three companies - Nintendo, Sega, and Microsoft - all used the same layout as the SNES. With the other two companies having half their buttons in the same place. Nobody other than Sony has ever used their layout.

Even the GP2X bastardized the SNES layout by moving the letter around - only they did it in the most confusing way possible. NONE of the keys are in the right place. So the Pandora is copying the worst of the copiers - instead of actually matching the one that started it all. At least the GP32 got the A and B in the right place!

Isn't the button layout a copyright issue?

If it is, the NSEW design would fix all of it. You can't copyright a compass.

 

[Exophase]

Isn't the button layout a copyright issue?

I really doubt that.

At least if we don't like this version we could always open up the Pandora and rearrange them :>

 

[atomicthumbs]

Again, the GP2X works fine. It's what most people on here are familiar with.

 

[Tom`]

Isn't the button layout a copyright issue?

I don't think you can't copyright a button layout. You could potentially trademark it, or even patent it, but I don't think that's been done, and it would probably be expired by now anyway.

 

[chad78]

Again, the GP2X works fine. It's what most people on here are familiar with.

Do you really want the Pandora to be limited to the people "on here" - or even to GP2X users? I don't. (Especially since I'm not one, a GP2X user that is.) The Pandora is more than a GP2X 2 - it's more than a GP32 360. It's really far more than a gaming system.

A couple of "marketing stragedy" things to consider here. By adopting the GP2X layout you are identifying with that device - basically, in this instance, claiming to be heir to the throne. And while I understand the community from which it is coming (Craig sells GP2Xs, this forum is on a GP32 / GP2X website, many people have one or both, many of the devs worked on one or both of those systems, etc.), think of the big picture.

Was the GP2X a commerical success? Hell no. Does the average human being know what a GP2X is? Has the average *GAMER* even heard of it? No. The worst selling version of the GameBoy Micro outsold the GP2X by orders of magnitude. And by "version" I mean color. I'm fairly sure the NGage outsold it.

Why hitch your cart to that falling star - you know, the one that never even made it off the ground.

I don't know if it will happen - I don't know if even Craig lets himself imagine this - but I could *EASILY* see the Pandora taking off like crazy. I see it much like the come-out-of-nowhere gadget the Eee PC. It's hard to remember even a few short months ago when the idea of a cheap ultra portable laptop was crazy talk. And yet, here we are with a dozen or more "Eee PC" killers, and Asus spinning off a subsidiary that only makes Eee PC branded computers.

I can see a year or so from now the headlines of Engadget reading "Can HP's Pandora-killer really compete?" - "Did opening Pandora's box release the destruction of the PSP?" - "Nokia's latest N-Series tablet - with gaming controls?"

Yeah - "Pandora Killer" - like "iPhone killer" or "iPod Killer". I think it can be that big.

I wish they would change it to NSEW. It's far less confusing to have it something that is completely new than to give them the same labels but in different orders.

Try typing with a Dvovark keyboard if you don't think layout is important. Or google for the massive amount of bitching Dell's Volstro UK keyboard layout is causing - and all they did was add an extra button next to the Z - which basically shifted the bottom row of letters over by one space.

You say that GP2X games will say "hit the X" and so we have to put the X where the X is on the GP2X. Bull! Won't SNES games say the same thing? Won't NES games say "hit A"? Won't GP32 games say "Hit B"?

I would wager $500 that the SNES has a ton more games than were ever released natively for the GP2X. I would say that SNES games will be played more often than GP2X games on the Pandora.

But forget about the SNES - Don't copy their layout either. Do something new. Do the compass points. Be original. Be unigue. Don't try to be the GP3X or the GP2Y. Be Pandora. Heck - label them O P E N or BUTN or WSAD or 4862 - whatever - just not the GP2X's layout.

 

[Nilsiboy]

I totally agree with Prophet here, it doesn't really matter what the buttons are called.

And I really don't get why people think they're going to press the wrong buttons when an app/a game tells them to "Press A".
One would think someone smart enough to operate a Pandora and get stuff running on it would remember when they're playing SNES games and when not. It's not like you push the wrong buttons when you play a Genesis game, too, is it?

And if you do, disregard this post, because I obviously don't understand just how attached you are to a button layout that hasn't been used - in its original form - since the SNES (not counting ripoffs). I mean, Sega and MS switched buttons around (in the same way, btw), and IMHO it actually makes more sense that way... I for one expect B to come after A, reading from left to right...

Maybe we should use the Gizmondo Button labeling?

Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right Array-of-Dots Three-straight-Lines-no-not-the-two-wavy-ones ?

PS (after seeing chad posted there): I agree with you on most points, but you're arguing from a point of view that is very much like saying "but _why_ aren't you chargin money for Linux? You could become RICH!" - which would really defeat the goal of a community-designed and -supported handheld.
Just my .02€ on that topic...

 

[Alex.]

Chad, how about you lay off trying to downplay what basically paved Pandora's way and made this community? We got the point that you'd rather not have any buttons at all than have them labeled same as the GP2X's, but damn, that's enough. Both the GP32 and GP2X are very special devices each with a great library of native software - while that may not be enough to justify carrying their button scheme over to the Pandora, it doesn't warrant calling them pieces of shit, either.

 

[Sphinxter]

You must realize Chad78 that talking a bunch of shit about some device you've never even held or experienced it really comes off like your just some asshole psp fanboy and a total 'tard.

 

[Loon]

QUOTE

Exactly. N S E W FTW!



Gets my vote too, nothing wrong with using something that's both original and widely understood IMHumbleO.

 

[fusion_power]

Although I agree that it doesn't really matter, I'd also like to know why the most popular layout (NES style) has been ignored, and instead the GP2X layout was used. I'd prefer if Pandora didn't do things to try to make it look like a GP2X successor.

Yes, I also wonder, why the Pandora Button layout is the same like the one from the GP2X. AND I wonder, why even the Pandora Action Buttons look exactly like the GP2X ones. ^_^ Some memorial for the GP2X?
I also found the GP2X Action buttons a little bit to small and to close to the edge of the Device and to close together.

Layout itself is not the big problem. I never was a fan of SNES, I prefer other Consoles so I don't care about this "SNES-Style" thing.
I have no clue how the Pandora Firmware will work but maybe it would be possible to set the letter of each Button in the System settings and THIS Letterin gwill be used for EVERY program, every game, every emulator as Button-description (in menus etc. )...until each Program uses different settings of course. I mean it could be possible to use placeholders in the programs so if you set the top Button name to "N" or so, every button hint in the programs says "Press N for *whatever*". This way crazy people also could use special letters and signs for their buttons.

The Pandora default setting of course is the lettering printed on the Action Buttons.


*damn, my english is to bad to describe, what I want to say... :lol: *

 

[Exophase]

QUOTE

Exactly. N S E W FTW!

Gets my vote too, nothing wrong with using something that's both original and widely understood IMHumbleO.


We could vote this out, except it has already been done, twice.. and the Nintendo style has won both times.

BA the way they are are good for "A for action, B for back" for menus, and using "X" for action is bad since it has "cancel" connotations. NESW are unfamiliar and awkward, there's a pretty big cognitive jump going from the letters to the compass directions, then to relative directions, plus it suggests that they have something to do with movement and make it too similar to the dpad names in that regard (UDLR)

 

[atomicthumbs]

Do you really want the Pandora to be limited to the people "on here" - or even to GP2X users?

So why would the button layout limit it to only GP2X users? Are you not going to get a Pandora?

A couple of "marketing stragedy" things to consider here. By adopting the GP2X layout you are identifying with that device - basically, in this instance, claiming to be heir to the throne.

Not really.

Was the GP2X a commerical success? Hell no.

For a system with no marketing, I think 50,000 units and two versions is a good run. Especially for a small Korean company.

Does the average human being know what a GP2X is? Has the average *GAMER* even heard of it? No. The worst selling version of the GameBoy Micro outsold the GP2X by orders of magnitude. And by "version" I mean color. I'm fairly sure the NGage outsold it.

Again, no marketing. And "colors" of Game Boys aren't different versions.

Why hitch your cart to that falling star - you know, the one that never even made it off the ground.

1. A falling star would be off the ground by default.

2. As I've said, it did make it off the ground, for a machine in its category.

I wish they would change it to NSEW. It's far less confusing to have it something that is completely new than to give them the same labels but in different orders.

You and a few other people. Go ahead; CAD files are included. Machine your own compass-buttons.

Try typing with a Dvovark keyboard if you don't think layout is important. Or google for the massive amount of bitching Dell's Volstro UK keyboard layout is causing - and all they did was add an extra button next to the Z - which basically shifted the bottom row of letters over by one space.

4 buttons versus several dozen (or more than a hundred) buttons is not exactly an accurate comparison. (I compliment you on your use of Flock.)

You say that GP2X games will say "hit the X" and so we have to put the X where the X is on the GP2X. Bull! Won't SNES games say the same thing? Won't NES games say "hit A"? Won't GP32 games say "Hit B"?

Yes. A and B are mapped to A and B usually; otherwise you can just hit what makes sense.

I would wager $500 that the SNES has a ton more games than were ever released natively for the GP2X.

No bet.

I would say that SNES games will be played more often than GP2X games on the Pandora.

That doesn't make any difference, as "GP2X games on the Pandora" will be homebrew Pandora games anyway.

But forget about the SNES - Don't copy their layout either. Do something new. Do the compass points. Be original. Be unigue. Don't try to be the GP3X or the GP2Y. Be Pandora. Heck - label them O P E N or BUTN or WSAD or 4862 - whatever - just not the GP2X's layout.

Why?

 

[Game_over]

It's staying the way it is, the SNES is not a defacto standard of how face buttons should be. deal with it.

O RLY?


Really :rolleyes: the snes controller was influential because of the use of shoulder buttons and confort not the placement of face buttons.

 

[Prophet]

It's staying the way it is, the SNES is not a defacto standard of how face buttons should be. deal with it.

O RLY?


Really :rolleyes: the snes controller was influential because of the use of shoulder buttons and confort not the placement of face buttons.


Correct. Except the diamond layout of the primary game buttons was also a great aspect of the SNES pad.

It's the button layout that matters, not the button labels. Copying the SNES/PSX button layout is smart because it's the most versatile and space effective. How those buttons are labeled doesn't really matter.

Labels are meaningless, especially with emulation - because no matter how you label the buttons, the labels will be "wrong" for some emulated systems and "right" for others. So you don't even look at the labels, you look at the layout - THAT is what matters.

For Pandora specific games and apps - the labels are even more meaningless - because everyone's Pandora will be the same, and it won't matter if the "north" button is labeled "N" or "X" or "Billy Jean" - what matters is that every Pandora owner knows it's the top-most button.

This entire subject is really not fit for serious debate, and I hope Pandora team hasn't wasted any time reading it. What matters now is getting the final casing molds done and the firmware ready. Not how the game buttons are labeled.

 

[Gilrad]

To me it's this simple: There are two major button labeling schemes that come natural: Playstation symbol-based, and SNES style.

I could adapt to a new layout easily. It's not the most difficult thing to do, and if it's something familiar, then there's even less of an issue. Where I start taking issue, is when the layout uses the same letters as another controller, but in a different order. I absolutely despise Xbox-style controllers because of this, and I am not to keen on Pandora either. It's easy to get used to a new setup, but much more difficult to rearrange a layout that has been ingrained into your brain since early childhood.

Plus, I think that "Because the GP2x did it" is a horrible reason, and that the sample used to take those polls are a little skewed, mostly because the non-gp2x crowd are not represented. I don't own one. And so, when I first found that this was going to be the layout of the buttons, I thought to myself "That's horrible inconvenient. Why the hell would they do something so confusing?" I mean sure, this is going to mostly cater to the hardcore group, but I think you're selling the product short if you make decisions that will alienate those of us who has never entered the homebrew gaming scene.