Our New Machine, Pandora

[vampire8bit]

People want N64 Emulation, but what about systems that should have been done to near perfection on the gp2x but weren't like C64 the PC Engine/CD with full sound and bin/cue support? I'm concerned these awesome systems will be ignored in favour of the N64 and psx.
I will be willing to pay £199 for the OMAP if all classic systems like C64, pc engine/cd, amiga, snes, msx, atari 7800, sega cd etc. are emulated to
near perfection with digital D-pad and suitable screen. In fact if I'd buy it if C64 and PCengine/CD and it's family alone were fully emulated to near perfection and 60 fps full speed with full support for bin/cue format.
I'd love to play Dracula X rondo of blood like it ran on original hardware than more than any N64 or psx game

Keep it sample but make it powerful, geared towards full speed emulation of older computers and consoles

After that I would want emulation of classic "hard to do" systems like Dosbox, sharp X68000, and if possible the sega saturn and maybe psx (for castlevania)

But N64 forget it, I have very little interest in 3d, but I can understand why people want it to be emulated I just hope that the great 2d classic systems are given much more attention.

(I'm not DaveC with different username by the way)

 

[Ravnos]

There's more than a couple of things that are confusing me ( I've probably mentioned some of them before so apologies for any repeats ).

If I'm reading that correctly then that's surely a fallacy. As others have already said ultimately this is being done as a business venture and so surely profit has to be one of the main driving forces behind it. There's nothing wrong with that by the way, it's just strange for board members here to try to take some sort of ownership over it as a "community project" when it's actual a commercial venture.

Secondly, I know the thread was put up and it did the job of getting some interest and making a long and active read but are board members not getting a false impression of the importance of their input into the whole thing ?

Speccing a machine to suit say 100 people who have replied in the thread is hardly going to happen as it would make no business sense at all, and surely the market being aimed at has got to be wider than just members of this board ?

The thread would strongly suggest that some people like SQUIDGE for example are being utilised in a professional capacity behind the scenes which makes complete sense (I chose SQUIDGE semi-randomly but could have gone for maybe SKEEZIX as a professional developer etc etc) , and if a business man like Craig (and whoever else is backing) has got professional people involved then I find it hard to believe the machine isn't fully specced out and designed already without relying on the input of board members, who let's face it could all still be at school.

Well said. Design by committee doesn't work, and I'm hoping that CraigIX knows that. This thread's just been for fun, a lot of people throwing ideas and fantasies around. I doubt that he's looking at this as a real design resource.

I don't look at this thread as design by committee and I don't think Craigix does that either. That would be stupid. We're not designers. We're consumers. But there is nothing wrong with listening to consumers for ideas and inspiration or sounding out your own ideas. That's not design by committee. It's market research. This whole thread is basically free market research for this device.

And it's not just for fun. If Craigix didn't read this thread he might not have found out about the OMAP3430. And if he didn't think it was important he wouldn't ask for opinions:

"We have indeed listened to all the ideas over the last 2 years."
"We are enjoying reading your thoughts so keep them coming."

 

[Orkie]

(I'm not DaveC with different username by the way)

Liar!

 

[Null]

I was wondering when somebody was going to post that.

 

[nexgen.gpxxx]

ONE WORD!!!!!!!!!

WIKI

I can't believe after 1052 post none has turned up with a WIKI, for christ sake, in order to organize this project. A wiki is desperately needed in order to have a clear view of what's been proposed. I said that because after reading through 1052 post I got nothing but squabbles over CPU, GPU, Emulators, controllers preferences. Why shoot down someone elses idea as "crap, useless, you idiot cock, [fill blank]" when everyone's output can be asessed better on a wiki? The worst that I saw was that dick calling N64 crap console. Listen, if this portable is being designed for general public it should support whatever console emulator available regardless what a miserable arrogant says something bad about it. I mean cmon, no everyone enjoy THE SAME games. You have your machine with your goddam emulator, somebody else will have their own fave emus. GOT IT?

This is my vision of the wiki.

One of the core problems on this thread is the endless repetition about comparison over the same specs. I mean someone would just come late in the thread WITHOUT having read earlier points made and just repeat over something which will prompt someone else to answer the same answer. LOL.

Obviously since this is design stage of the new machine it is IMPOSSIBLE to settle for a CPU without having compared it against a FULL build system with the rest of the parts and different uses such as game, browsing, listening to music, etc. Apparently there are multiple possibilities all worthwhile to take in consideration. Now this is kinda, extremely, hard to picture over loose threads with some over-excited and trigger happy interrupting with their latest and wildest wish list. Not that there's anything wrong with wish lists, I've got my own . LOL

Ok, therefore the wiki should look like this.

Front Page:

WELCOME TO GPXXX PROJECT

Links to:

MODEL PROPOSALS:

Version with the following combination: ATHLON CPU, FREESCALE GPU, GDDR5, WIFI-N...
Version with the following combination: ARM CPU, NVIDIA GPU, FB-DIMM, WIFI-N, KEYBOARD...
Version with the following combination: X86 CPU, ATI GPU, XDR2-DRAM, WIMAX...
Version with the following combination: MAKE YOUR OWN

Inside each Version page have a table of the proposed specs, names linked to the original product page, price of each part and total and some other columns/row I am not aware but could be useful. Something like this:

Table for Version Project X


__________________| MHz | Power Consumption | Product ID | Manufacturer (link to the product) | Price |
CPU |
_________________|
GPU |
_________________|___
RAM |
_________________|___
SCREEN |
_________________|___
WIRELESS |
_________________|___
DPAD |
_________________|___
BLUETOOTH |
_________________|___
KEYBOARD |
_________________|___
BOARD |
_________________|___
IR |
_________________|
GPS |
_________________|___
MOTION SENSOR |
_________________|___
LIGHT SENSOR |
_________________|___
WHATEVER SENSOR |
_________________|___
WHATEVER ELSE |
_________________|___
TOTAL ...... [Total price]

Ok this isn't the perfect table, I realize that, but you get the idea? Now each Version page will have this as well:

Under such configurations is capable of: do the following organized by categories

Emulators: N64, PS2, Dreamcast, Saturn, etc...
Browsing: estimate experience of browsing.
Video formats: Blue-Ray, HD-DVD...
Music formats: ogg, flac, etc... EXCEPT M$$$ SHIT WMA, please ;-)
[fill another categorie]: control my RC car...

Another section on EACH Version project should have an estimate of power consumptions under different scenarios. I can see by reading the threads that power consumption is a BIG DEAL. So since different tasks need different CPU power a DETAILED OUTLINE of power consumption under SUCH configuration taking into account what's turned on, Bluetooth, WIFI, screen brightness. Also HOW power management will deal with the different parts and situations.

You know what I mean?

There something I am leaving, with such a table and configuration it'll be possible to CALCULATE the theoretical total voltage by computing BUS SPEEDS, CPU CLOCK, GPU, RAM VOLTAGE... etc Someone could make a formula for each Version Project, right?

Then, price of course. It should be whatever ppl wanna spend on such a device. One possible way could be like this; list the specs needed for a $200 target, another for $250, and so on. So this way it's easy to contain the discussion, research and combination within those targets because will narrow down the possibilities.

I was thinking a good idea is to have a page with that feature "customize" in some websites, where you click the specs and it automatically updates the total price. Well this could be done to automatically to update 4 things:

* POWER CONSUMPTION
* WHOLESALE PRICE
* RETAIL PRICE
* # OF EMULATORS

With this wiki will also be possible to have separate pages for separate parts in development like the D-Pad design, overall design of the machine, mobo designs, buttons designs, etc... Ok let me make a list lol:

* D-pad design page
* Touchscreen design page
* Kernel, OS, drivers design page
* Buttons design page
* Faceplate design page
* MOBO design page
* Keyboard design page
* Possible technology inclusions page
* [fill blank] design page

This pages will be modular, meaning each Version Project will combine whatever design they like under those categories. Keep in mind that the design can be made with whatever hardware will be available later in the near future since this won't be released tomorrow. So hardware that's coming out in the next 2, 3 months it's realistic to include it on the Version Projects.

I think a wiki like this will be benefit this project because number 1 organization, number 2 will prevent non-technical enthusiasts to brake focus on a specific task. Of course there can be a section for non-tech ppl to chip in with their wildest dreams. Something like "All I want is to control my RC car, lol [5 emoticons]" on the CPU discussion is completely off. And if that happens that message can be politely be moved to the proper section instead addressing him like "you [insert curse] ignorant noob, die in hell!!" Having this broken down into parts will avoid intercinine fighting as a person can decide what Version Project work on and remain happy and maintain friendly competition.

The project could greatly benefit from input of people with expertise: electrical engineers, programmers, emulators devs, industrial designers, ... Even students in high school or University could make this machine as their project!!!

Mmm... looks like I am done with the WIKI vision.

Now my wish list LOL

* BLUETOOTH A MUST. Cmon isn't that hard and besides nowadays they come in extremely small size. Then we could use kewl headsets.
* WIFI-N AP and routing capable.
* GPS . Same thing, now they are extremely low power and small form factor.
* MOTION SENSOR Give me a break, if some off beat manufacturer is able to produce one for the Nintendo DS there's not excuse NOT TO include one for this project.
* TEMPERATURE SENSOR Just think could be nice. Always wondered why no gadgets include this, should cost a dime and consume practically 0 power.
* TWO ANALOG NUBS No REAL console has one damn nub, how about playing FPS?
* COMPLETE BUTTONS Like sixaxis, and xbox 360 controllers.
* IR The most powerful infrared out there, I am pretty sure by now they are dirt cheap.
* OLED SCREEN or LED BACKLIT LCD To save on power consumption.
* EMULATOR LIST SUPPORT: AT LEAST Xbox, PS2, PSP, DREAMCAST, NCUBE, N64, Saturn, and of course all the lesser ones.
* MORE THAN ONE MINI USB!! Here is the wiki page, with power charger support.
* VIDEO OUT SUPPORT
* KEYBOARD Like the one for the 360 controller, supporting bluetooth, usb and whatever wireless protocols keyboards use.
* DOLBY 7.1 SOUND WITH OPTICAL INPUT OUTPUT Mobos have this integrated on a small chipset.
* SUPPORT FOR DIGITAL HEADPHONES I am tired of seeing those ugly jack headphones.
* RUMBLE
* WUSB
* SLIM GP2x looks like a brick.
* While we are at it, why not add Fiber Optic Ethernet or Gigabit Ethernet, at least 4 micro ports with PoE?
* WEBCAM SUPPORT All linux drivers.
* FINGER READER
* FACEPLATE friendly
* LED BUTTONS
* USBHOST
* NETHOST
* Jtag needed?
* OPEN HARDWARE By this I mean something like it has been done with the NSLU and wrt54g and the PSP. You know easy for customization and adding or modifying hardware. One of my ideas is perhaps NOT TO CRAM everything inside this new machine in order to keep the price low, YET design the board for easy ADD-ONS without going crazy by soldering millimiter pins and sawing off the board. Have all the connections ready for later upgrade and what not. And not just ONE but several. Also Bluetooth, wireless and gps should be MODULAR so one can upgrade to a newer, better one.

Now for the GPU there is an open source GPL alternative, Open Graphics Card, although for PC perhaps could be ported for a handheld. ATI to have 100% Open Source drivers. While for CPU there is Ultra Sparc T2 available with documentation FULLY Open Source. Also good to take into consideration for resources is Open Cores for some other stuff.

By the way, why WAIT for GamePark to support "OUR NEW MACHINE" as the title of this thread states? Why not completely independent 100% community supported? I am sick and tired of companies releasing crippled, incomplete products at high price. For instance I heard that Apple sells low quality sound iPods at $300 just to maximize their profit while screwing the user. Some comments here say that Gamepark CEO lack vision and are difficult to deal with so why not an independent project.

Initially I posted this wish list over at $ony's forums when a PSP redesign was announced. I don't have a GP2. But PSP SLIM falls short of my expectations, I mean WELL BELOW. What would've cost them AT LEAST to add goddam touchscreen, bluetooth, Wirerless G and rumble? NOTHING, that's sheer laziness. ALL phones come with the vibrating thingy and you can get a cell phone practically FREE when signing for a plan. They make technological wonder, the PS3 but maintain a crappy portable PSP? That's just plain retarded, not to mention that everything is locked down. My idea is this one, cutting edge technology in order for programmers really create kewl new stuff.

How can be this possible while keeping the price affordable? Well my idea is for a modular machine. It can be available with bare essentials, without extra stuff. Make bluetooth, gps and so to add later. Also the hard drive or sd card make easy to replace. This way the machine could be really affordable with the lowest storage capacity but up-gradable for a hard drive with more storage. An clear example of this problem is iPods you either buy NANO with lesser capabilities or shell out $400 for more storage and more capabilities.

Done

 

[Orkie]

Have you read any of the thread at all?

 

[Null]

Have you read any of the thread at all?

Or they have a seriously large wiki fetish. :blink:

 

[God Ginrai]

I have a question for the FPSers who want a stick on the right side:

Why does it have to be on the right side? Can't you use an analog on the left side for aim, and the ABXY as WASD? (The Dpad would then take up any functions that those buttons normally took up)

-God Ginrai

well, on a PC you do it the same way. walk with WASD on the left and aim with the mouse right.
if th e analog aming nub is on the right side, you can use your right thumb to aim and at least for right handed peopple, its easier to aim precisely.


I understand how the right hand can aim better, but in my experience, your right and left thumbs don't suffer from the favoritism that your hands do. You can do anything with your left thumb just as easy as you can with your right. IMHO, when you're thinking about what side the controls are on, it'll sound strange to FPSers, but I believe that once you pick it up and try my method, it should feel just fine.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yrx]

I really like this one. Like if you made the circle a Sega Genesis or Saturn style pad. I was kind of skeptical before, but seeing how it would work really bought me. And then maybe the stick could fit in a little notch, kind of like the stylus with DS.

 

[God Ginrai]

I like the D ring idea better, but that one is fine with me as well.

-God Ginrai

 

[fusion_power]

I really like this one. Like if you made the circle a Sega Genesis or Saturn style pad. I was kind of skeptical before, but seeing how it would work really bought me. And then maybe the stick could fit in a little notch, kind of like the stylus with DS.

Thanx. ^^ Yes, the Stick should be always near the Device so an Holder at the Handheld would be useful, maybe we could place it in a hole at the top of the handheld. Hold and released like an SD Card?
Rough scribble, sizes wrong of course:

 

[Yrx]

lol, That looks hilarious. :lol:

But it gets the point across.

 

[God Ginrai]

lol, That looks hilarious. :lol:

But it gets the point across.


So if the stick goes there, where does the SD go?

-God Ginrai

 

[Yrx]

So if the stick goes there, where does the SD go?

-God Ginrai

It wouldn't have to necessarily be in THAT exact spot. Like it could go in a side, or on the bottom, or off center on top. Basically wherever it would fit.

 

[deathterrapin]

Any hybrid dpad/analogue control would almost certainly be a bad thing. A good dpad need a central pivot, without that it is easy to mash down all four directions at once when quickly switching directions. Adding an analogue mechanism into the centre removes that pivot.

Of course it may be possible to devise another mechanism to overcome this, but that would likely be very complex to manufacture and thus be unworkable in this device.

 

[Eolair]

*snip*

HAHAHAHA... no other comment necessary

 

[Turnip]

Any hybrid dpad/analogue control would almost certainly be a bad thing. A good dpad need a central pivot, without that it is easy to mash down all four directions at once when quickly switching directions. Adding an analogue mechanism into the centre removes that pivot.

Of course it may be possible to devise another mechanism to overcome this, but that would likely be very complex to manufacture and thus be unworkable in this device.

I think a thin ring of plastic underneath the centre circle of the d-pad (provided its small enough and the d-pad is big enough) should have the same effect as a central pivot. You wouldent be able to push both sides at once.

 

[Sphinxter]

I have a question for the FPSers who want a stick on the right side:

Why does it have to be on the right side? Can't you use an analog on the left side for aim, and the ABXY as WASD? (The Dpad would then take up any functions that those buttons normally took up)

-God Ginrai

well, on a PC you do it the same way. walk with WASD on the left and aim with the mouse right.
if th e analog aming nub is on the right side, you can use your right thumb to aim and at least for right handed peopple, its easier to aim precisely.


I understand how the right hand can aim better, but in my experience, your right and left thumbs don't suffer from the favoritism that your hands do. You can do anything with your left thumb just as easy as you can with your right. IMHO, when you're thinking about what side the controls are on, it'll sound strange to FPSers, but I believe that once you pick it up and try my method, it should feel just fine.

-God Ginrai


I don't, no one right handed picks up a rifle and aims with their right hand, left is natural. One handed pistol shooters rarely hit anything but innocent bystanders.

 

[God Ginrai]

I have a question for the FPSers who want a stick on the right side:

Why does it have to be on the right side? Can't you use an analog on the left side for aim, and the ABXY as WASD? (The Dpad would then take up any functions that those buttons normally took up)

-God Ginrai

well, on a PC you do it the same way. walk with WASD on the left and aim with the mouse right.
if th e analog aming nub is on the right side, you can use your right thumb to aim and at least for right handed peopple, its easier to aim precisely.


I understand how the right hand can aim better, but in my experience, your right and left thumbs don't suffer from the favoritism that your hands do. You can do anything with your left thumb just as easy as you can with your right. IMHO, when you're thinking about what side the controls are on, it'll sound strange to FPSers, but I believe that once you pick it up and try my method, it should feel just fine.

-God Ginrai


I don't, no one right handed picks up a rifle and aims with their right hand, left is natural. One handed pistol shooters rarely hit anything but innocent bystanders.


By "right hand aim" I meant that it's easier for a right-handed person to aim the cursor of the mouse with their right hand. Not that it's easier to aim a real gun. But my point still remains that with the thumbs, there is no favoritism, so it doesn't matter what side the analog is on for FPSes.

-God Ginrai

 

[Turnip]

With this design you could have the anolog on the bottom right for fps's if you wanted.