Our New Machine, Pandora

[realyst]

*cough*Slackware*cough*

Seriously, though, we just need the kernel and some of the drivers such as USB, network adaptor, touchscreen, and FS mounting.

You don't need squat on a hand held console. Even for 'PDA functions' and the like. Leave the memory and clock cycles to the apps.

And why does the window manager need to be KDE or Gnome?? Seriously, that crap is for Desktop use and contains far too much gadgetry and widgetisms that would never be used greatly in such a system. You can make it pretty and such without Gnome or KDE, because, seriously, who the hell wants to run Compiz on a handheld(what, on Earth, would be the point)???

A simpler, customized(or customizable), accelerated implementation would be best by far, methinks.

To me, this all sounds like running Vista on a PSP. If you could do it...would you?

 

[A_SN]

Both Ubuntu and Debian are too heavy for a handheld system. They have that one nice feature, Apt, to automate software installs. But in the end most software you could automatically install won't run properly without a real keyboard/mouse or would be too demanding for the handheld in the first place. Software for a handheld should be custom tailored or installed manually; or a custom app can be made to install software for people who would have difficulty.

Bottom line Debian and Ubuntu have too much bloat for a handheld. There would be too much startup time, too much extraneous software included and too much upkeep. When a new firmware is released it needs to be specific to the handheld, not specific to desktop PC OS'es....

And on top of all that, Debian/ubuntu is meant to be installed on a read/write filesystem (a hard disk really) and would perform slowly on built-in flash memory whenever a write needed to occur. while I've never seen a flash chip physically exhausted to the point you can't write to it, there's the theoretical potential for it, and anything that would harm the longevity of the device would be a good idea to avoid.

Way to talk out of your arse. If Debian ARM was supposedly so blotted or whatever then it wouldn't be used on PDA's. A minimal installation of Debian is everything but bloated and runs on ridiculously old machines, understand, the slowest 486 you could find. Obviously you have some experience with Linux on PC's and try to apply it to handhelds, but you don't really know what time it is.

If Orkie tells you that Debian ARM will be just fine on such a handheld, fucking trust him, he co-made Open2X, he knows a lot more than you about that very topic.

 

[A_SN]

You don't need squat on a hand held console.

Right, you don't need squat, except maybe mmmh.. pretty much every type of app you normally use on a PC? (text editor, web browser, chat program, video player, etc etc..)


QUOTE

And why does the window manager need to be KDE or Gnome?? Seriously, that crap is for Desktop use and contains far too much gadgetry and widgetisms that would never be used greatly in such a system. You can make it pretty and such without Gnome or KDE, because, seriously, who the hell wants to run Compiz on a handheld(what, on Earth, would be the point)???


I fail to see your point. Everything you say could apply just as well to desktop use. If more people want to use Gnome than Blackbox on a PC, why wouldn't people want to use Gnome more than Blackbox on a handheld as well?

QUOTE

To me, this all sounds like running Vista on a PSP. If you could do it...would you?



No, because Vista is utter crap. But if I could run XP on a PSP, and that I had a (x86) PSP, and that it ran just fine, then yeah, everyone would want to do that!

So basically your point is, handhelds don't deserve to run the shit you run on your PC, even if they're totally able to do so? What have handhelds done to you man?

 

[Goity]

The problem is that by putting a full edition of Linux on, we cease to have a games console, and get an underpowered (ram-wise) EEE which can't run x86 applications and can't run XP.

Remember that this is meant to be a games console and not a UMPC.

 

[atomicthumbs]

Both Ubuntu and Debian are too heavy for a handheld system.

I disagree. For a long time, I was running Debian on my Jornada 720 handheld PC. It had a 1-gigabyte CF card, 32 megs of EDO DRAM that was slower than the flash card, and a 206MHZ StrongARM SA1101 processor.

It worked fine. I was able to run several different window managers on it, and even OPIE. I could use Firefox at full speed. I only had 40MB of swap, and that was on a flash card.

I think that Debian would be fine, but aren't we going with Open2X?

heh, everybody's ignoring me about the open2x part

I was telling this kid in my class about the Craiginator, and that it would run Linux. He's not a geek, but when I mentionede LInux, he said, "Can you run normal Linux programs on it?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Whoa! That's awesome! I am so getting one of those."

A full desktop distro would, but a minimal Debian with some customisation would be fine (for the millionth time ).

PAY ATTENTION TO ORKIE, DAMNIT! HE KNOWS MORE ABOUT LINUX THAN ANY OF US!

The problem is that by putting a full edition of Linux on, we cease to have a games console, and get an underpowered (ram-wise) EEE which can't run x86 applications and can't run XP.

Remember that this is meant to be a games console and not a UMPC.

Except that it can run pretty much all of the apps from Debian. Hell, they've ported all of their stuff to the Z90 architecture in case you want to run Firefox on your IBM supercomputer mainframe with 512GB of RAM.

 

[realyst]

Right, you don't need squat, except maybe mmmh.. pretty much every type of app you normally use on a PC? (text editor, web browser, chat program, video player, etc etc..)

Video: practical on a handheld system. Watching shows on short trips is handy and the SOC is made for it.

Text editor: borderline - but basic text editing could be useful for notes, etc... since a keyboard will be available. Also low on resources.

Web browser: Personally, I find these silly and cumbersome on handhelds, but some people like them so I'll leave this one alone. Resource draw is moderate depending on the site.

Chat program: Useless. But, refer to point above about web browsers. May as well let it in. Also, resource draw nearly non-existent.

What else is there on Gnome/Kde:

File finder/indexer: not worth it. Far too much resource and power draw. Not likely to have -that- many files, even on a 34GB SD card.

Compiz: I boot up my handheld, I wanna launch something fast, not screw around with wobbly windows and cubes.

Icons everywhere and a task bar: no use for it. Again, everything done on a handheld should be quick to find and launch. Task bar would have to be somewhat gimped to be visible. PSP's dash has the right idea. Even GMenu2X is almost there. It should be optimized for the input method available(ie touch or pad/stick based)

Multiple windows floating everywhere: cumbersome on a handheld with a screen that is smaller then 13".

Loads of settings/tools inapplicable to a small device and aimed primarily for a larger desktop where there's power to spare and things available to you much more readily.



Here's what is -important- on this handheld: anything that isn't an app written for it or a homebrew proggy made for it shouldn't draw anything. It should also be easy to access, easier to launch and the bloody thing should be able to start up within a reasonable amount of time. The background processes of it should also be as simple and clean as possible to avoid crashing/etc... which are annoying enough on a desktop PC but have the extra damage of draining your battery.


QUOTE

I fail to see your point. Everything you say could apply just as well to desktop use. If more people want to use Gnome than Blackbox on a PC, why wouldn't people want to use Gnome more than Blackbox on a handheld as well?



Because of the tradeoff. The extra stuff Gnome can do takes extra resources away from the apps and homebrew the device is meant for. Also, most of these extras wouldn't work very well on a handheld unit anyways.

I have a PC for that stuff.


QUOTE

No, because Vista is utter crap. But if I could run XP on a PSP, and that I had a (x86) PSP, and that it ran just fine, then yeah, everyone would want to do that!



Why???? the PSP interface is perfect for use on the PSP. It allows you to quickly navigate the screen and get to various parts of the system without needing a cumbersome mouse, etc... Aside from the ghastly keyboard thingy, it's runs perfectly fine for what the PSP is meant to do! XP, on the other hand, would dedicate loads of its resources fueling Explorer, Luna, etc... need a mouse and would occupy some of the small screen with a silly taskbar to truly function like the XP you apparently love.

Not to mention the boot time!

Personaly, I would much much much prefer to use the PSP's dashboard then an XP variant.

QUOTE

So basically your point is, handhelds don't deserve to run the shit you run on your PC, even if they're totally able to do so? What have handhelds done to you man?



Handhelds are fine! Laptops are fine! I want a handheld, not a laptop! But, seriously, handhelds shouldn't run the shit I run on my PC. I have my PC for that. The handheld's capabilities and resources are at a premium compared to my PC and its system should reflect that. If you want to run that extra baggage on your handheld, that's up to you, of course. But it should definitely not be part of the handheld unit itself.

Leave the resources to homebrew, please.

 

[atomicthumbs]

Text editor: borderline - but basic text editing could be useful for notes, etc... since a keyboard will be available. Also low on resources.

Web browser: Personally, I find these silly and cumbersome on handhelds, but some people like them so I'll leave this one alone. Resource draw is moderate depending on the site.

Chat program: Useless. But, refer to point above about web browsers. May as well let it in. Also, resource draw nearly non-existent.

What else is there on Gnome/Kde:

File finder/indexer: not worth it. Far too much resource and power draw. Not likely to have -that- many files, even on a 34GB SD card.

Compiz: I boot up my handheld, I wanna launch something fast, not screw around with wobbly windows and cubes.

Icons everywhere and a task bar: no use for it. Again, everything done on a handheld should be quick to find and launch. Task bar would have to be somewhat gimped to be visible. PSP's dash has the right idea. Even GMenu2X is almost there. It should be optimized for the input method available(ie touch or pad/stick based)

Multiple windows floating everywhere: cumbersome on a handheld with a screen that is smaller then 13".

Loads of settings/tools inapplicable to a small device and aimed primarily for a larger desktop where there's power to spare and things available to you much more readily.

1. Web browser resource draw does not depend on the site, most of the time. If you use Dillo, it's pretty much going to stay at 768KB of memory usage.

2. Chat program useless? Tell that to everyone on #gp2x.

3. The task bar would not need to be gimped to be visible. Remember, we're getting an 800x600 screen

4. Windows are fine. Ever heard of the OQO model 2? Look it up.

 

[A_SN]

The problem is that by putting a full edition of Linux on, we cease to have a games console, and get an underpowered (ram-wise) EEE which can't run x86 applications and can't run XP.

Yes, to address the problem of ram consumption by X, I guess something special could be done about it, like shutting down X, or "saving its state" (dunno if that's possible), but after all, maybe moving it to swap would just do it, I don't know.. I just don't think there's a real issue here. As for x86 apps and XP, who gives a crap? You'll have programs satisfying every need of yours, your only complaint might be with the inability to run games in Wine, but I mean, come on!

 

[PeterM]

I'd like the Linux "install" to be as minimal as possible - I'm quite clueless about Linux and don't really want to deal with any hassles just for a handheld.

 

[A_SN]

QUOTE

No, because Vista is utter crap. But if I could run XP on a PSP, and that I had a (x86) PSP, and that it ran just fine, then yeah, everyone would want to do that!

Why???? the PSP interface is perfect for use on the PSP. It allows you to quickly navigate the screen and get to various parts of the system without needing a cumbersome mouse, etc...

Oh, I didn't say XP would replace the PSP interface, you'd ask if I'd run it, not if I'd use it primarily. Say for the console, you can have a menu just like on GP2X and then launch X and do your Xish stuff on it.

QUOTE
Handhelds are fine! Laptops are fine! I want a handheld, not a laptop! But, seriously, handhelds shouldn't run the shit I run on my PC. I have my PC for that. The handheld's capabilities and resources are at a premium compared to my PC and its system should reflect that. If you want to run that extra baggage on your handheld, that's up to you, of course. But it should definitely not be part of the handheld unit itself.

Leave the resources to homebrew, please.



What damn ressources are you talking about? All your post is about 'drawing ressources', seriously, what kind of bullshit are you talking about? Tell me what runs on your PC that you wouldn't want to run on the Craiginator for "ressource issues"?

 

[God Ginrai]

So, I've been wondering.... where's the D-pad that we were supposed to be seeing a couple of days ago?

-God Ginrai

 

[OMars]

1. Web browser resource draw does not depend on the site, most of the time. If you use Dillo, it's pretty much going to stay at 768KB of memory usage.

2. Chat program useless? Tell that to everyone on #gp2x.

3. The task bar would not need to be gimped to be visible. Remember, we're getting an 800x600 screen

4. Windows are fine. Ever heard of the OQO model 2? Look it up.

It's actually 800*480.

 

[Goity]

*snip*

I meant underpowered compared to the EEE's 512mb of RAM (not needed for a console but needed for a PC). We need to remember that this is intended as a mass market portable and not as some geekish Linux house. The console needs to be easy to use and fun to play for everyone who can use at least the GP2x/PSP immediately out of the box, and with a full Linux I just don't see that happening. The console would also lose its originality in being some sort of faceless modular Linux PDA just like hundreds of products out there, instead of a unified handheld specifically built to be a new and top notch games console.

 

[Alex.]

We should have a quick launcher ala Gmenu2x, and the option to go deeper and access a more complex system. The quick & simple launcher is essential though - and really, I didn't see anyone that advocates a full system be against it in any way, so where did all this disagreement come from?

 

[moxie]

QUOTE
Oh God, why do I have to read such inepsies. It will have a touchscreen, which makes up for the mouse, a keyboard, and it'll run on X. Kind of like, mmmh let me think... your average PC under Ubuntu?

Do you honestly think it is that easy? There will surely be something incompatible with other linux systems, that's all I'm saying. Unless it runs on a current distro, everything won't be as a simple as dragging and dropping the program you want on a memory card and running it. Do you honestly think that they will put a GB+ on this console built-in? Even advanced PDA's and smartphones usually have a limit of 256MB.

Go ahead, continue this argument...

Now, I know next to nothing about this new machine, but honestly - I have a perfectly good debian-ARM installed on my Psion 5mx, which is a PDA from the nineties with 16 megs of ram. It runs X, at a decent speed even. I can throw most debian-arm packets at it and just run the installer, and it works. Keyboard works. Mouse (via touchscreen) works. An, although I deeply love my Psion, I must admit that the Craiginator will run circles around the psion, all its relatives and every house it has ever been in, in terms of hardware power.

Honestly - Why would this be trouble? Just drop it.

 

[moxie]

Why are people suddenly talking about heavyweight Linux distributions and package managers and the like?

Because they are lacking any real, hard info to steer this discussion in a fruitful direction, so after a while waiting, the background noise of our collective brains suddenly manifests as postings

(Yes, I should go to sleep now)

 

[pupnik]

What damn ressources are you talking about? All your post is about 'drawing ressources', seriously, what kind of bullshit are you talking about? Tell me what runs on your PC that you wouldn't want to run on the Craiginator for "ressource issues"?

Running 'Top' on an idling N770 shows a task manager taking about 2-8% cpu, along with a handful other processes. After some time without user activity it goes to sleep and stops draining battery.

The real resource that needs saving is battery. OMAPs provide advanced control of clockrates and sleep modes, and they can go into 'temporary sleep' very quickly if no processes are needed.

This is what makes a desktop windowmanager a bad choice for a tablet. The windowmanager and applets need to allow cpu to rest when no real work is needed.

This is also why OpenEmbedded or Maemo/ITOS are best choices for craigulator 'productivity mode'. Nokia and the Maemo community have already addressed all the basic issues required for a tablet/stylus operating system at 800x480 - issues most people here have yet to discover.

 

[Vorporeal]

Ah, so only about four times faster than the PS2 CPU? with error for translation from DMIPS to MIPS. Thanks for the information exophase. Sounds confusing. :S

I don't think it's 4x as fast... The GameCube core is around 1000 DMIPS. Therefore, a Cortex-A*@1GHz would be about 2x the speed of the GameCube (in number of instructions processed per second). I doubt that the GameCube is 2x the speed of the PS2 (which it would be if the Craiginator was 2x the speed of the GameCube).

 

[Squidge]

Why do we need a distro at all? Just put a slimline Linux on there with a collection of libraries, and then simlink some directories to normal dirs so installs from Debian/etc work without modification. Obviously not every app will work, but if we make the /dev/* devices similar, a lot will.

 

[Vorporeal]

Why do we need a distro at all? Just put a slimline Linux on there with a collection of libraries, and then simlink some directories to normal dirs so installs from Debian/etc work without modification. Obviously not every app will work, but if we make the /dev/* devices similar, a lot will.

I completely agree. It is not necessary to have a very bloated desktop distro on a handheld device that doesn't have the power to run it nearly as well as a slim, streamlined, and efficient interface designed specifically for that device. If the device was Debian-compatible (either running a streamlined install of Debian or that used symlinks to get stuff to work upon install), people who wanted to could run a fully-featured desktop environment (Gnome/KDE). I, for one, would just like to be able to click and drag using the touchscreen to do the Compiz desktop cube (just because it would be pretty awesome). I wouldn't use Gnome/KDE as my standard interface, but it would just be there in case I had some use for it.

There's nothing wrong with using a slim version of Linux on the device. If it runs everything nicely, then someone can easily install whatever software they want on it.

Streamlined is not equal to limited.