Openpandora2, what we know so far.

[asimov-solensan]

Wow, Craig's vision of pandora really disappoints me. I would just buy a 7'' tablet with gaming controls instead. The other day saw a device of this kind on engadget, can't remember the name.


If his idea becomes a reality I think that ED could venture with him selling the same device with a desktop linux preinstalled, a screen better suited for the matter and other minor changes.

 

[Stephane Hockenhull]

capacitive screens uses up a huge amount of CPU time to filter and process the captured image.


you get a single-channel (grayscale) image representing the capacitance of each "pixels".


its a very noisy capture so you got to filter it first both in 2D and temporally (previous capture(s))


then you have to scan the whole bitmap to find blobs representing fingers, then you have to track them and figure out the center of the touch.


the cool thing is if you give the application access to the raw image, you can do a finger painting app.


a precise capacitive stylus shows up as a small white dot at most 2 or 3 pixels across, too small to be a finger so it is (was) ignored by the touch recognition drivers.


that's why the capacitive stylus are (were) large tipped.


anyway, its very cpu intensive, not too bad if you can have a 2nd core do the work, but still heavy.

 

[Binky]

Wow, Craig's vision of pandora really disappoints me. I would just buy a 7'' tablet with gaming controls instead. The other day saw a device of this kind on engadget, can't remember the name.


If his idea becomes a reality I think that ED could venture with him selling the same device with a desktop linux preinstalled, a screen better suited for the matter and other minor changes.

Completely agree with you there.


Android may be popular, but I believe that Craig's plan is suicide - why join the ranks of Chinese android allwinner crap, at a higher (made in Europe) cost?


We have a niche, and should be aiming to expand into others.

 

[fusion_power]

Of course, we could also do a joint-venture and create one Linux-optimized and one Android-optimized version of the Pandora. There would probably be a lot of parts we could share (i.e. battery, buttons, etc.) and many areas we could work together on as well.

Good Idea. Then Craig can do the Pandora 2 he wants and you make the Pandora 2 that people want to buy.


Or how about a modular LCD? Should be possible, I have some rough Ideas. Changabel LCD part like a plugin above the hinge part of the Device or something like this. So we can have the cheaper LCDs and Craig can try to sell the expencive HD Screens.

 

[Stephane Hockenhull]

OTOH, capacitives "nubs" work very well as long as there's some kind of relief on it so we can always feel the center and outer limit.


they certainly work better than the self-decalibrating ones we got now.


a click button on each would be nice too instead of the "move-nub-to-click and hope it doesnt go batshitcrazy and close your window" deal we currently have.


the right one on my pandora does not center properly, the spring (or whatever) on the left side of it only recenter it 1/2 way toward center, the nub is lose from center to 1/2 way left (but fine vertically and right side).

 

[Binky]

no. Splitting the project is a bad idea. Craig is not just a headstrong blunderer, and having two (now three) products makes the companies more stable.


Craig needs to realise, that, whether intended or not, this device is not driven by minimenu and easy emulation (not even the app store).


Its driven by geeks. they write the software, and keep the community alive.


Ed (complete with long hair and coffee stockpiles!) understands, and has a great vision for the P2, but seems unwilling to make a fuss about it.


A balance could be great, as long as it isn't mal-weighted by the strength of Craig's opinions

 

[FRZ]

I'm not buying another android device for sure but, hey, I know I'm just one guy so...

 

[thatgui]

But not one good pocketable Linux device.

I'm outraged, a 'father' forgetting his own child

Someone high up on the production of these needs to push for android as mandatory because of what happened with the first pandora. 3+ years before we saw a unofficial android build, and the one we got is chrooted on top of angstrom and not flash able or default boot able. It is also not being improved or maintained. (I love it and appreciate notaz's work, don't get me wrong)


If someone isn't focusing on it, it will be the same situation again. Most active forum patrons are pro Linux primary, everything else secondary or back burner. There are not enough android developers to go around on the Pandora but there is a an adequate amount of Linux devs.


...

I think not many really care here, because Android was never a reason to buy a Pandora. But what do you mean exactly by saying"3+ years before we saw a unofficial android build"? That would imply an actual intend to bring it th the Pandora in the first place - meaning more than a "why not ?". Also outside the Phone / Tablet world Android isn't very popular - best example is Android for x86, its there, some people surely use it, but most of the x86 world just does not care (maybe because they already have it on their phones).

it's funny... but I don't see ~?8000 pandora owners come to these forums to vote for which OS they prefer, only seen about 200 or so (I think) present their opinion on these matters, and of those, even less are vocal enough to post a comment about their preference. And since it's not popular among the majority of active posters, I think even less would vocalize their opinion about it. It does seem like he's standing alone against an army of naysayers, but he's not as alone as it appears... I promise.

I don't think that there is an army of naysayers. I can't imagine there is anyone on this board that is against Android as an full featured option. Most people fear about the Linux support, because over the years craig vocalized on more than one occasion his "contempt" with the software eco system. Not because he is "evil" or he not beeing able to value the work and time the devs spent on it, but simply because it is not what he had envisioned for the Pandora.


I guess most people around here fear, that he will be pushing Android for the P2 so hard, that the Linux option will be an unloved stepchild that will make its way into oblivion, because no one really takes care of it (or is able to)

 

[milkshake]

I like the android and Linux coexistence as primary os choices, could care less about capacitive or resistive as a screen as long as it is clamshell.

Capacitive touch screens don't have pressure sensitivity, right? That would make the Pandora not very useful for artists - if you can't control pressure sensitivity in MyPaint.

There are ways to gauge pressure now with capacative.

 

[Esn]

There are ways to gauge pressure now with capacative.

How many levels of pressure?

 

[SNESFAN]

@thatgui


I know android wasn't the selling point when the Pandora was released, mainly because it was seen as a fly by night os and there wouldn't be LTS on it. But it has since proven its there to stay. Also the reason people don't use x86 android is because of software compatiblities because the software isn't supported universal like it is on arm v7 devices (vast majority of android mobile devices) and that most x86 devices aren't touchscreen. Mouse works but it's shoving a round peg in a square hole.


Its now an actual selling point along side the battery life and other critical features the Pandora advertises because people use and want it regardless, bringing up the android port to the same level as Angstrom is important.


I know a lot of people are in for both, but what I'm saying android should share the same spotlight as angstrom and should have a similar use ability that is all. And vise versa. The naysayers are the ones that suggest Linux should be the main and only focus and leave the android implantation to the same level it is now. It technically works and they are fine with the way it is. If he can commit to both that would be ideal, but having craig on one side pushing for android, and ED pushing for linux is a good solution to because they're both in the planning and direction of the device... if they could come closer together on one view that would be great, but as is , is good too IMO.


It won't be just another android device, it will be the first and only device that runs android and Linux coexisting on the same device right out of the box. And the only gaming clamshell to run android, and the one with the best controls and a real keyboard, those are all unique things in this current market, and those are all things I am would buy.... and why I'm a proud owner of one now.


I think I've heard that fear before in that if you focus on android Linux would get the reverse as what android gets now on the Pandora... I don't think... no... I know that won't happen because of how many on here are a fan of pure Linux. The community will support Linux regardless because of the fact of how many non paid current devs maintain it right now. Not the same for android so that's why there needs a official commitment for android support, that's why Craig is doing the right thing even if he doesn't see it the way I do.

 

[EvilDragon]

but having craig on one side pushing for android, and ED pushing for linux is a good solution to because they're both in the planning and direction of the device... if they could come closer together on one view that would be great, but as is , is good too IMO.

I never said I don't want Android.


In fact, I WANT it. That's why I was suggesting a MULTITOUCH-resistive touchscreen from the very beginning.


Linux doesn't need multitouch, but without it, you won't be able to get an official Google License for Android.


In fact, I want a system where BOTH OSes work as good as possible.


That means we need multitouch (for Android), but it also mean we need a touchscreen that's as accurate as possible with a stylus, otherwise the Linux OS would be useless.


We certainly need to check different options and possibilities here. Multitouch with resistive screens are rare, and I don't think we can find a FullHD screen with it.


But if there's a 720p screen with an accurate but also finger-usable multitouch-resistive screen out there, I would like to use that.


Except for if the FullHD capacitive screen is so good it doesn't use a lot more power and is very accurate with a special stylus... that's something we need to check.


So I'm not trying to force the specs to work with Linux only, I am trying to find specs that work for BOTH systems best.


If we have to do compromises though (i.e. no proper working multitouch available), I'd prefer the specs for Linux, as Android is nothing special these days on a device, so Linux should have a bit more focus.

It won't be just another android device, it will be the first and only device that runs android and Linux coexisting on the same device right out of the box. And the only gaming clamshell to run android, and the one with the best controls and a real keyboard, those are all unique things in this current market, and those are all things I am would buy.... and why I'm a proud owner of one now.

Yes, but only if the hardware we use is suited for both systems, not just for one.


Right now, the Pandora is a compromise, due to the single-touch.


That's why I'd like to get a multitouch, if possible.

I think I've heard that fear before in that if you focus on android Linux would get the reverse as what android gets now on the Pandora... I don't think... no... I know that won't happen because of how many on here are a fan of pure Linux. The community will support Linux regardless because of the fact of how many non paid current devs maintain it right now. Not the same for android so that's why there needs a official commitment for android support, that's why Craig is doing the right thing even if he doesn't see it the way I do.

You're talking about the software. I'm not afraid of the software, as I know we can port Linux to it.


I'm just afraid of Craig sacrificing important parts of the hardware (USB Port, accurate touchscreen, etc.) because Android doesn't really use it.


Without those, Linux wouldn't be as usable as it is now.


As mentioned: I tried Linux on the Google Nexus 7, but was unable to use it, as clicking the menu entries was a hit and miss.

 

[SNESFAN]

sorry ED, didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I just thought I read you saying you won't be in on a P2 with android and your previous comments about not being too impressed with android in general.


I take it back, and if you want the same general experience for both I am completely saitisfied.

 

[F_Slim]

Is there somebody able and willing to port, update and maintain Android for the P2? My guess is, that as for the P1 all software is basically community driven. If there is nobody available to do it (or it would mean we have to clone notaz so that the Linux OS is not neglected) then there is a problem.

 

[dgame]

notaz has stated that he is not a fan of Android so I don't think he would be the man for that

 

[EvilDragon]

Is there somebody able and willing to port, update and maintain Android for the P2? My guess is, that as for the P1 all software is basically community driven. If there is nobody available to do it (or it would mean we have to clone notaz so that the Linux OS is not neglected) then there is a problem.

AFAIK Craig wanted to get the finished Android from TI directly (if we're using the OMAP5).


They offer that service and support, so that shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[EvilDragon]

sorry ED, didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I just thought I read you saying you won't be in on a P2 with android and your previous comments about not being too impressed with android in general.

I still don't like it, I'm having it on my phone (after the second N900 died because of that fucking breaking MicroUSB slot) and I really miss it


However, I know there are some nice games and features, so it would add quite a lot to the Pandora and also gather a wider audience.


So I think Android IS a fine OS for the Pandora 2 as well, but it should NOT be the focus.


The focus should be, like on Pandora 1, the flexibility and being something special. If Linux doesn't work properly because of some hardware decisions, then it's basically an Android-Only device... and therefore, nothing really special anymore (heck, you could get a phone and an iCP2 and have the same).

 

[skeezix]

History folks .. Android wasn't a selling point for Pandora because IT DID NOT EXIST, or at least, the beta wa around and it was not a heard of/successful thing yet. Its not like today, where everyone knows Android.


Check the releases dates.. Android came out AFTER Pandora. Yes, Pandoras been around that long (and Android is _that_ young.. things move fast!)


Some folks seem to think we were naive not to go Android up front (*cough* guess who), but they forget the history. We went linux not just because it was the only viable option at the time, it was also in our blood. Android is of course a bastard child of Linux, so now you can run Android and Linux-proper on the same devices.


(Personally, being 'just another' android device does not appeal; suddenly you're up against the big boys and their economies of scale, so your only advantage is unique form factor.)


jeff


edit: the actual dates.. Android 1.0 September 23, 2008


OP went on preorders what.. I keep thinking 2007, but I Think it was 2008: September 30, 2008 .. or Sept 27th? something like that.

 

[Binky]

The focus should be, like on Pandora 1, the flexibility and being something special. If Linux doesn't work properly because of some hardware decisions, then it's basically an Android-Only device... and therefore, nothing really special anymore

Yes!


The key word is flexibility.


There are too many android devices out there for OP to make a dent...


...but there are plenty of niches it can fill

 

[the_marshal]

I couldn't agree more about having some sort of vanilla Linux distro on the Pandora 2 (be it Ångström or another distro). There really aren't that many device with good old plain linux around.


I am really happy with my Linux experience on the Pandora 1, although having access to a full software repository (eg Debian...) would be a plus. I know it's possible to have chrooted debian but it's not entirely the same.


The clamshell design makes the Pandora less touch focused than most phone. Most of the time I use the nubs as mouse. That, coupled with the keyboard, makes the user experience more similar using a laptop that a touch oriented smartphone.


So IMO the goal would be to continue with the current Pandora OS while ensuring the Pandora2 is able to run Android as well.