Openpandora Ltd (UK) Struck off email

[Timstertoo]

So if you make a loss although you have to give yourself a salary to feed and house your family, you don't deserve it

So during the months that it takes to develop a product, for which you have taken a loan, you don't deserve a salary you are paying yourself in order to survive?
That's kind of harsh. It's a necessity, unless you've managed to accumulate enough savings that you don't need to pay yourself anything until you start shipping. I don't feel there's anything undeserved, even the owner of the company should be working hard (harder than, even) along with their employees and deserving of periodic compensation for that work.


I see your argument, that at the end of development the owner claims the profits, except that profits belong to the company and are typically funneled back into it for paying off debts and expansion: if the owner is to get any money then they continue to pay themselves a salary from the profits. The only difference is now the company is producing its own money instead of requiring a loan.

You need a salary, you don't deserve it until you are successful and make a profit.


Working really hard, being an honest person but at the same time making terrible business decisions which results in going belly up makes you undeserving of the money you spent privately. Although at the time you needed to do that so you can eat and sleep under a roof.


The people who didn't get (re)paid deserve that money, you spent it. Having a company doesn't give you the moral right to screw around and make a mess of your and other people finances, even if you legally might get away with it.


I do realise we are firmly in the land of opinion and morals and there is no right or wrong, just a difference in how we view matters like these.

 

[Grench]

This needs to be moved to the Craig's projects area. It sullies the 'General Talk'.

 

[ramboky]

Not to mention the fact he took a pile of money from customers and ran off with it. Which makes him a thief as well as a screwup.

depends... he "worked" five year on the project, I think he could resonably pay himself some kind of salaries... does he merit that, certainly not but does that makes him a thief?

He took a huge pile of money for 1GHz Pandora orders then the money disappeared and none were produced. That's not taking a salary, that's theft, or more accurately fraud.

 

[FaeMinx]

This is the reality I live in:

I have been working solidly for months now on my new business of which I am the owner and only employee.

I have sunk every last penny of my own resources into this (investment)... and even so, I have substantial debts I can't pay right now because I've made no profit... and I will continue to make no profit until all debts are cleared.

Am I paying myself a salary? Hell no!

All the money I put in and the work hours mean absolutely nothing unless this business turns out to be a success... I.e all debts are cleared, capital is built up in order to order and produce more stock, and to sustain the business through quite months, and money put aside with the intent to expand... only after all these objectives are met will I start to see profit out of which I can pay myself a salary.

At that point I can pay myself whatever I like.

But until then I deserve absolutely nothing in spite of everything I've put in.

Paying myself a salary now would be the height of stupidity and would be grossly irresponsible - it would absolutely guarantee my business fail.

Claiming my personal living expenses are part of the costs of running the business is incorrect - I have no right to take money out of the business to pay for these things. That's my own personal problem that I should have taken care of before I even started the business.

 

[ramboky]

Paying myself a salary now would be the height of stupidity and would be grossly irresponsible - it would absolutely guarantee my business fail.


Claiming my personal living expenses are part of the costs of running the business is incorrect - I have no right to take money out of the business to pay for these things. That's my own personal problem that I should have taken care of before I even started the business.

And this is why Craig will always fail and you have a chance to succeed. Best of luck.

 

[WizardStan]

You need a salary, you don't deserve it until you are successful and make a profit.

Deserve: Do something or possess qualities worthy of reward.Not do something at the end, not eventually possess qualities, do something right now. If you start a company and you do work for that company, regardless of your position in the company, you are doing work that benefits the company and therefore, by definition, deserve a reward.

I get what you're saying, but whatever word you're looking for "deserve" is not it. To not deserve something means you haven't done anything of worth, a very negative connotation for a beginning business.

 

[eazrael]

Here's what i planned and currently doing (no legal advice, IANAL):

- Send a letter via registered mail (~6€) to OpenPandora Ltd setting them a final deadline for either delivery or refund within 1 month of receipt of the letter.

- Got the return receipt that the letter was received on 11/11.

- Will send a letter to this company registry, telling them i object the strike due to my open prepaid order. (monday, ~5€)

- Will check my bank account and letter box on Dec 12.

If I haven't got anything from OP Ltd:

- File a "european payment order" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payment_Order ). This is quite cheap (~32€ in Germany), and OP Ltd. can either deliver, pay, deny the claim or claim bankrupt if it works the same way as in Germany. The last option is probably referenced in this strike off notification we all got, OP Ltd. needs somebody to make it insolvent.

Oder auf Deutsch: Frist setzen, in Verzug setzen, (gerichtlich) mahnen/eintreiben.

I don't know what happens if a company with this value folds. But i hope that their books will get checked.

Germans might be interested in reading these: http://www.eu-verbraucher.de/fileadmin/user_upload/eu-verbraucher/PDF/Berichte/Studie_ZEV_Vereinfachte_Verfahren.pdf & http://www.berlin.de/sen/justiz/gerichte/ag/wedd/eumav/wichtigehinweise.de.html These reinforced my decision to go this way.

Edit:

As with all legal actions, this is not without risk, financial (you have to pay money in advance) and legally (you know what are doing? I am not sure). In Germany we have a saying: On open sea and in court you are in god's hands.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

@FaeMinx I could start a bread making company, get a £75k loan, pay £25k for ingredients, £25k for the building, and £25k to employ a bread maker. If I make a good business plan, and find an investor, get the ingredients, building and employee then everything works out pretty well. If my business plan was nonsense and the business ends up bankrupt then the investor made a bad decision. If the business plan was good but external factors ruined the company, hopefully insurance will cover this, if not it is probably bad luck for the investor. If I am doing a bad job with the way I set the company up, hopefully the investor will have drawn into the contract clauses to 'get out' or be able to force another person to be in charge, or something along those lines. If everything goes well and the company makes money as predicted then overtime the investment gets paid off, the investor ends up in profit and we have another successful company.

The above is a hugely simplified example of how a lot of companies come into existence. Now if you take the above equation, and instead of employing someone at £25k per year, you employee yourself at £25k per year, and do just as good of a job (in fact you would probably do better) of course you deserve the salary you are being paid. The business plan/company is still running identically to when an external employee was being used.

 

[Klumpen]

Afaiu (As far as I understood ):

Craig never had a real business plan.

Craigs plans do not go beyond next supper.

(Of course, this again would be the optimistic version.)

 

[crazyhorse]

Here's what i planned and currently doing (no legal advice, IANAL):- Send a letter via registered mail (~6€) to OpenPandora Ltd setting them a final deadline for either delivery or refund within 1 month of receipt of the letter.- Got the return receipt that the letter was received on 11/11.- Will send a letter to this company registry, telling them i object the strike due to my open prepaid order. (monday, ~5€)- Will check my bank account and letter box on Dec 12.If I haven't got anything from OP Ltd:- File a "european payment order" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payment_Order ). This is quite cheap (~32€ in Germany), and OP Ltd. can either deliver, pay, deny the claim or claim bankrupt if it works the same way as in Germany. The last option is probably referenced in this strike off notification we all got, OP Ltd. needs somebody to make it insolvent.Oder auf Deutsch: Frist setzen, in Verzug setzen, (gerichtlich) mahnen/eintreiben.I don't know what happens if a company with this value folds. But i hope that their books will get checked.Germans might be interested in reading these: http://www.eu-verbraucher.de/fileadmin/user_upload/eu-verbraucher/PDF/Berichte/Studie_ZEV_Vereinfachte_Verfahren.pdf & http://www.berlin.de/sen/justiz/gerichte/ag/wedd/eumav/wichtigehinweise.de.html These reinforced my decision to go this way.Edit:As with all legal actions, this is not without risk, financial (you have to pay money in advance) and legally (you know what are doing? I am not sure). In Germany we have a saying: On open sea and in court you are in god's hands.

All preorderers with Craig still awaiting a unit should do this, might make him accountable for his actions.

 

[FaeMinx]

@Steven

As a business owner, you only employ someone if you can afford it, otherwise you do the work yourself for nothing until you can afford it.

I'm not going by how other businesses are started and run, I'm going by personal experience.

From my perspective, Craig wasn't in a position to employ anyone let alone draw a salary.

If he absolutely needed the man power beyond himself, he should have found funds from elsewhere in order to pay wages... I.e get another job.

This he could have accounted for as his own increasing investment in the business, and sure he could see a return on that... BUT, that return would only materialize once genuine profits are being generated.

To try and cash in on 'theoretical' profits before actual profits have materialized is sheer lunacy.

Him drawing a salary even while still in debt may be legal on paper... but I regard it as short-sighted, foolish and unethical.

I state again: business owners are not entitled to salaries. They are entitled to profits.

 

[KillRoXx]

guys? where is the post a whole essay and have immense amounts of tl:dr thread? i think im lost.

 

[Klumpen]

If he absolutely needed the man power beyond himself, he should have found funds from elsewhere in order to pay wages... I.e get another job.

Who would hire a guy, that never admits his mistakes and is accusing others for them, is lazy, unorganized and always hiding under a rock, when he is asked to do actual work?

They become CEOs, bosses, fraudsters or homeless, sometimes a combination of these, but usually not employees.

Sorry for the offtopic.

OnTopic:

Are there any responses to the court claims yet?

Did more than two guys file some?

 

[sebt3]

@Steven

As a business owner, you only employ someone if you can afford it, otherwise you do the work yourself for nothing until you can afford it.

I'm not going by how other businesses are started and run, I'm going by personal experience.

From my perspective, Craig wasn't in a position to employ anyone let alone draw a salary.

If he absolutely needed the man power beyond himself, he should have found funds from elsewhere in order to pay wages... I.e get another job.

This he could have accounted for as his own increasing investment in the business, and sure he could see a return on that... BUT, that return would only materialize once genuine profits are being generated.

To try and cash in on 'theoretical' profits before actual profits have materialized is sheer lunacy.

Him drawing a salary even while still in debt may be legal on paper... but I regard it as short-sighted, foolish and unethical.

I state again: business owners are not entitled to salaries. They are entitled to profits.

While this might make sense in an ethical/goodwill point of view. It make no sens at all economically. If you dont expect someone to eat and have a roof over his head while starting a company then dont expect any company creation at all. You know most people that start a bussiness are over 30 and probably have kids and wife (or husband), a wage and so on. Making your opinion the law would make sure no new company will ever be created. And as large public companies doesnt create new job since at least a decade, that's a receipe for unemployement and disaster. As simple as that.In the end, you might feel entitle to have that opinion because of craigx mess but luckyly most bussiness man have a better sense of moral. Then there are the few exeptions that behave like ED and try to save something because they have tons of goodwill. But that's the exception. You should be proud to know someone like him, not expect anyone behave the same.

Some months ago, I bought a neocube kit. I paid online. At that time the company was being close by the US gouv' for safety reason. That wasnt public at that time. They took my money but did not send the neocube as the US gouv' revoked them the right doing so. I tried to get a refund but a bit late as the company was closed. Do I feel cheated, sure. What can I do about it ? nothing. Should I think the US gouv' shouldnt be allowed to close a corp for safety reason ? No way. Kid safety first !

If that can happen with a well known and respected company (they were in bussiness since a few years) it can definatly happen with a kickstarter product. That's part of life. deal with it...

 

[WizardStan]

As a business owner, you only employ someone if you can afford it, otherwise you do the work yourself for nothing until you can afford it.

Due to loans he took out for the Pandora, plus investors, ED's company has yet to turn an actual profit. You don't believe that all the work he's done so far is worth some kind of compensation, not even a meager living expense?

 

[hedwards]

As a business owner, you only employ someone if you can afford it, otherwise you do the work yourself for nothing until you can afford it.

Due to loans he took out for the Pandora, plus investors, ED's company has yet to turn an actual profit. You don't believe that all the work he's done so far is worth some kind of compensation, not even a meager living expense?

Things will go a bit better with the next version. The CC company problems alone represented hundreds of thousands in debt. The new company doing it seems to be a lot better and would likely do just fine with whatever the new designs are.

Here's what i planned and currently doing (no legal advice, IANAL):- Send a letter via registered mail (~6€) to OpenPandora Ltd setting them a final deadline for either delivery or refund within 1 month of receipt of the letter.- Got the return receipt that the letter was received on 11/11.- Will send a letter to this company registry, telling them i object the strike due to my open prepaid order. (monday, ~5€)- Will check my bank account and letter box on Dec 12.If I haven't got anything from OP Ltd:- File a "european payment order" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payment_Order ). This is quite cheap (~32€ in Germany), and OP Ltd. can either deliver, pay, deny the claim or claim bankrupt if it works the same way as in Germany. The last option is probably referenced in this strike off notification we all got, OP Ltd. needs somebody to make it insolvent.Oder auf Deutsch: Frist setzen, in Verzug setzen, (gerichtlich) mahnen/eintreiben.I don't know what happens if a company with this value folds. But i hope that their books will get checked.Germans might be interested in reading these: http://www.eu-verbraucher.de/fileadmin/user_upload/eu-verbraucher/PDF/Berichte/Studie_ZEV_Vereinfachte_Verfahren.pdf & http://www.berlin.de/sen/justiz/gerichte/ag/wedd/eumav/wichtigehinweise.de.html These reinforced my decision to go this way.Edit:As with all legal actions, this is not without risk, financial (you have to pay money in advance) and legally (you know what are doing? I am not sure). In Germany we have a saying: On open sea and in court you are in god's hands.

All preorderers with Craig still awaiting a unit should do this, might make him accountable for his actions.

That's all well and good, but that's not necessarily how things work out in real life. When we bought, it was made abundantly clear that we might not get anything for our money. The company itself is a limited, so as long as Craig was smart enough not to do one of the things that would make him personally liable, he's basically untouchable. Anybody who bought during the second batch had access to the information about how poorly the previous batch had gone.


I realize that it sucks, I'm out some money on this as well, but whether or not he should be accountable for his actions has absolutely nothing to do with the legal situation. For all the people that are convinced that this was illegal, put some money in a pot and hire an attorney to look into it. But, as far as I can tell, this was just gross incompetence. Craig has done some horrible things with his company, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is legally liable for it. That's why so many people set up limited corporations in the first place.

 

[FaeMinx]

Im probably too idealistic.

 

[sswam]

Well, in a team-of-1 game kickstarter, I expect that most of the money will be used to pay the developer, to live for a year and focus on developing the game. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm thinking specifically about "Limit Theory", looks like it's going to be awesome.

 

[Exophase]

Well, in a team-of-1 game kickstarter, I expect that most of the money will be used to pay the developer, to live for a year and focus on developing the game. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm thinking specifically about "Limit Theory", looks like it's going to be awesome.

There's this big problem with taking a wage - some recurring life-expenses payment - from a KS project. In iCP2's case, Craig said it'd be out in only a couple months and he may have even believed that. So maybe he budgeted wages for 2 months, but what happens when that turns into a year? Here's another question - should people be taking a wage while they're basically doing nothing but sitting around waiting for other things to happen? During this last year how much work could Craig have possibly been doing?

I think that KS projects should give a clear high level budget proposal in their project page before funding. That should delineate costs for parts, manufacturing, design, and sales. All new design work should be done as firm fixed-price contracts that the designers agree on beforehand.

We don't have a lot of details on exactly how Craig spent the money (or even if it was all spent) so it's easy to assume the worst, but not necessarily fair. All I know is that he made a couple purchase from iCP2 money on things that weren't vital for iCP2 development and this was a huge mistake, that refers at the very least to that 3D printer (~$3000?) and money spent on Pandoras (5000 EUR for 20 Pandoras, for what it's worth.. hope ED doesn't mind me sharing that) How much, if any, Craig spent on personal living expenses is unknown. We do know he eventually get a job, after his girlfriend lost hers.

 

[ramboky]

Well, in a team-of-1 game kickstarter, I expect that most of the money will be used to pay the developer, to live for a year and focus on developing the game. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm thinking specifically about "Limit Theory", looks like it's going to be awesome.

Craig stated quite clearly that the ICP2 was only an after hours effort and that they all had day jobs, he didn't need to take a wage, nor should he have. The Kickstarter was to pay for production and probably make a little profit. That's clearly not how it has been used. 

Still defending him, after all this? Your trust is him is as blind as it is unhealthy.