North American Bank Transfer And Distribution Proposal

[senatus]

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OK. I am going to make an open proposal to Craig and the Pandora team that will
hopefully help resolve some of the problems in ordering that he has noted here:
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showtopic=45767

As a potential North American (Canadian) customer I have been rather critical of
the business management of the Pandora ordering fiasco. So rather than continue
to criticize, I will offer to help.

My real identity is Winstοn Sorfleet. I helped found and
run a successful engineering design services start-up, CoreSim, that had several
million in yearly revenue and was sold to Celestica in 2004. This is a matter
of public record. As one might expect, I have good relations with my lawyer and
bank.

These days I am a Director at the Ministry of National Defence.

What I have therefore is a unique and easily verifiable identity (see
http://direct.srv.gc.ca/cgi-bin/direct500/BE and look me up). It should be
self-evident that my professional reputation is of far more value to me than
scamming anyone.

What I am willing to offer is, in effect, a trustable North American escrow to
OpenPandora LTD. I could set up a commercial bank account to receive North
American bank transfers and hold the funds in trust until the units are ready
for shipment. I would have to check with my lawyer as to whether, as an agent
of Open Pandora, I would have to charge taxes (GST, plus PST in Ontario), but I
suspect it can be avoided.

I will go one step further and offer a safe bulk receiving location in Canada,
and I can hire someone to redistribute the individual orders within North
America.

None of this is likely to cost much, but it will be a small headache. However,
I am willing to do this with reimbursement only for the out-of-pocket expenses.

If there is interest on Craig's part, I will follow-up and explore beyond the
hypothetical.

Signature key: http://www.romanus.ca/gpg
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[Frogboy]

Do I even need to say it?

 

[fretfrenzy182]

what is it you need to say frogboy

 

[verm71]

I'm from Canada as well. I could go through a middleman like that, as long as it's dirt simple like "here's my money, now I'll just wait a few months/weeks for my Pandora to show up in the mail". I'd even pick it up in person if you were in the Ottawa region.

 

[gruso]

Do I even need to say it?

Say what?

 

[Asmo]

I could set up a commercial bank account to receive North
American bank transfers and hold the funds in trust until the units are ready
for shipment.

Reading between the lines of all the problems to date, I'm inclined to think that they are after immediately 'spendable' funds, otherwise none of this mess would have happened.

 

[senatus]

I could set up a commercial bank account to receive North
American bank transfers and hold the funds in trust until the units are ready
for shipment.

Reading between the lines of all the problems to date, I'm inclined to think that they are after immediately 'spendable' funds, otherwise none of this mess would have happened.


Good point, Asmo.

Another option - this would require group consensus - is that I hold, say, half the funds in trust, and forward the other half to OpenPandora. So that purchasers are doing a half up front, and a half on delivery. Obviously, then, I would not be legally responsible for the half that gets advanced if the OpenPandora team fails to deliver.

I am quite willing to modify the proposal - this is why it is open for comment.

 

[Brockway]

They've said even if the credit card waiting people cancelled they still have the money on hand to manufacture the order. Thats not what we're waiting on.

 

[gruso]

They've said even if the credit card waiting people cancelled they still have the money on hand to manufacture the order. Thats not what we're waiting on.
The waiting isn't the issue though. The problem is that Craig's bank will only accept credit card orders once a certain quota of direct transfers has been received. 1800 transfers is the figure Craig gave, before CC orders are allowed.

So far just over 1000 orders have been done by transfer, and not many more people seem keen to pay that way. I think the Pandora team will welcome any proposals like this, for perusal at least.

 

[Frogboy]

Look, I apologize if your intentions are honorable, senatus, but it just seems like this would be adding another layer of risk to the whole situation. If the OpenPandora team is willing to refund this second transaction fee for everyone than the main reason not to just send them the money directly through a bank transfer is because you don’t want to pay via a non-secured method. Now maybe I’m missing something. How would this be any safer? Wouldn’t we have to trust you now, also?

You’re argument about not wanting to ruin your professional reputation is only valid if you are who you say you are. I’m sorry but it is way too easy to assume someone’s identity like this over the internet. Any way that we can use to “verify” who you really are could easily have been used by anybody to choose who they wanted to impersonate. At least Craig and the gang have a history with the community that builds up the needed trust. I don’t think that two posts outside of this thread really satisfies that criteria.

Sorry to always be the Doubting Thomas around here. The way I see it is if you are willing to take a risk in the ordering process, you might as well just transfer the money to OpenPandora. If you’re not, I don’t see how this would seem like a safer option to anyone.

 

[telegramguy]

Hmm... I don't know about this. Had he been a Nigerian prince then I'd say go for it.

 

[yosh64]

hey

No offence, but I don't trust this guy, what is with the signed message stuff?

I wouldn't even consider doing business with anyone unless they paid for the products in advance, and then I would have to get them to sign a contract to make sure they will sell them for the agreed price to the agreed customers and whatever else.

cyas

 

[sinoth]

I'd rather spend another $20 on a bank transfer than have to trust a third party.

 

[senatus]

Look, I apologize if your intentions are honorable, senatus, but it just seems like this would be adding another layer of risk to the whole situation. If the OpenPandora team is willing to refund this second transaction fee for everyone than the main reason not to just send them the money directly through a bank transfer is because you don’t want to pay via a non-secured method. Now maybe I’m missing something. How would this be any safer? Wouldn’t we have to trust you now, also?

You’re argument about not wanting to ruin your professional reputation is only valid if you are who you say you are. I’m sorry but it is way too easy to assume someone’s identity like this over the internet. Any way that we can use to “verify” who you really are could easily have been used by anybody to choose who they wanted to impersonate. At least Craig and the gang have a history with the community that builds up the needed trust. I don’t think that two posts outside of this thread really satisfies that criteria.

Sorry to always be the Doubting Thomas around here. The way I see it is if you are willing to take a risk in the ordering process, you might as well just transfer the money to OpenPandora. If you’re not, I don’t see how this would seem like a safer option to anyone.

1. The intent would be primarily to serve those of us who cannot do an international bank transfer to the UK (to most of us in North America, it is extremely difficult, not to mention exorbitant - I would much rather that nobody, including Pandora, has to eat $20-40 CAD per transaction).

2. Assuming I am who I say I am (see below), the perceived risk (to those in North America) may be less than dealing with Craig & co. overseas, given the info on public record associated with the person known as Winstôn Sorfleet.

3. Verification as to who I say I am is possible by a number of means. Obviously, the GPG signature above is only intended to raise a certain level of initial credibility - for there to be sufficient trust to actually transfer money, something more authoritative would be needed. One likely means of authoritative source trust is an e-mail with an Entrust-PKI signature from my Department of National Defence e-mail account to Craig. If you know what that is, you know that is (for all practical purposes) impossible to fake.

Let me be clear, Frogboy, I have nothing to gain here, and am volunteering a not-insubstantial amount of time and effort as a possibility for getting around the perceived roadblock OpenPandora seems to be facing in getting orders re-placed from the U.S. and Canada. Believe me, I would much rather prefer that everyone on this side of the Atlantic (including me) could use their credit card. My two reasons for doing this is (a) to support an open development project which is a philosophical goal and (b) because I really would like to be able to purchase my Pandora and that second bit seems less and less likely with every new bit of "bank trouble" that we hear about.

If Craig actually manages to come up with a different, viable solution, fantastic! I save myself a lot of hassle and I get a nice toy to replace my Zaurus.

Addendum to yosh64: Do a Wikipedia search on PGP, GPG, and PKI as means of verifying source authenticity. The GPG signature is a way someone (with a key checker) can verify that I am likely who I say I am. The Ministry-issued Entrust PKI would be the way that Craig could be virtually certain that I am who (and what) I say I am.

Addendum to sinoth: If you are able and willing, by all means please do. Maybe Craig will hit the 60% ratio and all this will be moot. However, I think that unlikely.

 

[donny662]

This sounds like a neat idea, and I am glad that you are concerned about the release of the Pandora.

But, I think it was premature to post a proposal of this nature. A bunch of forum members praising this idea would (hopefully) not convince the OpenPandora team to accept it. On the other hand, if everyone reads this topic and doesn't like the idea and/or has doubts about the legitimacy of the plan, then you have just created an unnecessary obstacle to acceptance, when/if the OpenPandora team becomes convinced that your proposal is genuine and wants to implement it.

If I am understanding your motivation correctly, I think publishing this proposal was a nice gesture to the community, but I also believe that doing so before the OpenPandora team has approved it will only hinder its execution and community acceptance.

If any of the mods or the OpenPandora team think that this proposal might be genuine and that Winstôn Sorfleet might be the person behind it, this topic should be closed until the official details can be worked out.

 

[j.pickens]

to most of us in North America, it is extremely difficult.

Yes, I agree.
If, by "extremely difficult" you mean driving to the bank, handing them a copy of the refund/reorder email, and waiting the 5 minutes while they filled out the form, then, yes, it is "EXTREMELY DIFFICULT" to do..

 

[Brockway]

As my excuse, I am on a completely different continent from my bank. I don't think there are any JPMorgan's in Japan. Xoom seems pretty cheap though as long as you use your bank account to fund it. I tried credit through just to see if it would work. Can't wait to hear back from Craig and Jacquelyn to see if the couple of test Xoom orders go through uneventfully.

 

[mali]

I whish this thread a nice journey to the bottom of the board

 

[MiniSinisterMinister]

Do you think someone would rather transfer the money to a complete stranger on his continent than pay a fee for an international bank transfer? This proposal is not more trustworthy than that people receive via email from a Hong Kong bank director

What I don't understand is why Craig is not able to set up a bank account in the US. He is able to produce in the US but he is not able to get a US bank account? The other day I saw a TV commercial from a bank that says that they operate internationally and you can take your account anywhere with you.

 

[Pleng]

OK. I am going to make an open proposal to Craig and the Pandora team that will ...

If there is interest on Craig's part, I will follow-up and explore beyond the
hypothetical.

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[Paraphrase]

Dear Sirs

I am a professional businessman. You can tell because I posted my idea on a forum rather than (or even as well as) contacting the parties involved directly. That's what professional businessmen do, you see.

[/Paraphrase]