Nintendo Switch

[levi]

Running an xbox one derived OS on a PC under a hypervisor won't get your equal performance to an xbox one I suspect - since the one is an APU derived design, while most PCs still have a discrete GPU mediated by the PCI bus. I suspect not considering populating the GPU ram ahead of time in the design of most One games is where bad PC ports come from.

 

[MechaBouncer]

Yeah I guess you're right about that. I'm just trying to speculate what this mysterious "game mode" will be. Maybe it will just turn off unessential services while it runs or something like that? Something that could be done forever, but now in an automatic method from the OS itself instead of a separate application. I do know that DirectX 12 already brought some features to include integrated GPUs from APUs along with discrete GPUs for additional processing while reducing overall draw call overhead and direct hardware access (unless "direct hardware access" means "Mantle", then that was separate of DirectX 12). Most of these (aside from Explicit Multi-Adapter support) were already available on Xbox One. I'd be curious how much of a delay the PCI-Express bus with larger dedicated GDDR5 VRAM makes vs the APU with limited VRAM and shared DDR3 system RAM. It's probably a bit of a wash overall.

Going back to the Switch with a Tegra X1 SoC, the CPU architecture is ARM-based, however the GPU is Maxwell-based and should support Vulkan. Nvidia has put in work with Epic to get Unreal Engine 4 running on it and the previous Tegra K1 SoC with a Kepler GPU. The main concern I have for it is how much Nintendo has reduced the clock speeds to achieve better battery life when portable. Running the CPU at 1020MHz is half what the Cortex-A57 is normally rated for. Then running the GPU at 768MHz when docked is 3/4 of what it normally runs in the Shield TV and 307.4MHz is only a third it's potential power. Even the Shield Tablet K1 ran the GPU at about 850MHz, so assuming that the Tegra X1 is about 1.5 times the power of the Tegra K1 at the same clock speed, that would make the Switch about half as powerful as the Shield Tablet K1 in tablet mode and slightly more powerful when docked. Most data I found showed the Shield TV performing between 1.5 and 2 times that of the Shield Tablet, although clock speeds are also different so there's quite a bit of fudging going on there. Still, I wish that the GPU clock was higher.

EDIT:
Actually performance will probably be lower still. I started comparing the Nexus 9 and Pixel C as well, which also run their Tegra K1 and X1 SoC's at 850MHz. The Pixel C is between 1.0 and 1.5 times the power of those devices at the same clock speed. So that would probably be a better device to compare the Switch to.

 

[WizardStan]

I'm going to mostly agree with you there with some exceptions.

Good points. You've gone into much more detail than I was actually aware of.
I had no idea the Wii U was Unity backed, I don't remember that being advertised anywhere. I do remember developer complaints about the API though. For the time, it would've been Unity 3: Unity didn't really start hitting as a major player until Unity 4 in 2013, so I wonder if there were a lot of issues with 3 that made development difficult. It may also have just been marketing spin.
Anywho, point is that everyone these days knows about Unity and if they don't know it at the very least WANT to know it, so it's a major selling point for developers.
[doublepost=1485003057,1485002885][/doublepost]

The main concern I have for it is how much Nintendo has reduced the clock speeds to achieve better battery life when portable

A proverbial ace up their sleeve? After a few months release a special "docked only" mode which clocks everything up but only while it's plugged in, unless you're ok with sub hour battery life.

 

[levi]

I suspected for a while now that it does actually ramp up the clock speed slightly in the dock, so that it's able to produce 1080p graphics for the TV. I forget if that's actually been confirmed or denied by now though, I'm afraid.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Actually we don't know what SOC the Switch is using . Could be a cuistomised anything, K1, X1, P1 or something new . Who knows, it's frustrating, but I think the only way we will find out is when someone opens it up. Perhaps it may not even be evident then

 

[TrashyMG]

Actually we don't know what SOC the Switch is using . Could be a cuistomised anything, K1, X1, P1 . Who knows, it's frustrating, but I think the only way we will find out is when someone opens it up. Perhaps it may not even be evident then

Yeah the only thing solid I've heard was a custom Tegra...

 

[Garrett]

Has anyone here pre-ordered? ..I must admit I've hovered over the button a few times (haven't clicked.. yet!) as I'd love to be playing the new Zelda soon but beyond that I'm struggling to justify as I haven't seen/heard anything that piques my interest until the end of this year. Can't say I'm as concerned as a large portion of the interweb seems to be with it's perceived 'lack of power' for Nintendos first party titles as their coding genius speaks for itself. I am a little concerned for the ports though, I dare say it will be well served for the Indies at least for a while, but the AAA stuff that's another thing entirely.. it's supposedly easy to port to, but are we going to see them? (in recognizable form) time will tell I guess.

 

[matzesu]

Well on day one there aren't many games, expect Zelda and Bomberman for me (Bomberman could be great to show the "Multiplayer only whit one Handheld" Feature)
But End of April whit Mario Kart 8 DX and Lego City Undercover,
Also the Switch will be for me the only chance to play Skyrim as long I ditnt buy a faster Computer,

Also : Proper Farming Simulator and Skyrim on the Go, sounds great..

 

[thatgui]

The PC, ONE, and PS4 are not all kinds of similar. Where did you hear that? The XBOne and PS4 have their own APIs which are distinct from all the offerings on PC and require special development systems.
The Switch, however, is confirmed to have Unity, which means an API which a lot of developers are already familiar with and can mostly be tested on a PC without a development system.

But still they share a very similiar design as the architecture of both CPU and GPU is pretty much the same: I know that Sony is doing some crazy stuff with the additional ARM system at place and MS uses ESRAM to cope with the ddr3 bandwidth limitations , and that both (PS4 and Xbone) are much more stripped down and "streamlined" versions, but still.
Porting an engine to a system where architecture (and the philosphy behind it) is pretty different shoule be a lot more work, in comparison.

Has anyone here pre-ordered?

Fortunately I don't have the funds, otherwise I would be tempted - because of the new Zelda, Splatoon 2, 12switch and that boxing game. The last two look "gimmiky", but they look fun, and Nintendoland is currently the only reason our WIIU gets switched on (sometimes). But for now, I have a "some kind of Switch" called GPD Win which should keep be busy for a while.

(Bomberman could be great to show the "Multiplayer only whit one Handheld" Feature)

definately, did not think of that

 

[levi]

Hmm, just noticed that like the Wii-U gamepad, the joysticks don't have the 8-way guides that all previous nintendo analogue sticks had, from N64 to Wii, and it also doesn't have a digital d-pad. Not sure that's going to be ideal for playing a game like Bomberman on, although if they let you use the buttons as a d-pad replacement it might not be too bad for a mostly 4-way game.

 

[matzesu]

I think the Dpad is more intends to use as spare buttons for the second player, not as aktual dpad..
or to have more buttons in single player mode
Like the Z Buttons on N64

On 3DS, I never used my DPAD, not even for Gameboy Virtual Console Games like Mario Land,
Only the Circle Pad for moving,
I used the dpad only for extra buttons in some Games..

 

[levi]

Actually, I just noticed the left buttons have little arrow logos on them rather than A/B/X/Y letters, which would suggest it does double up as a directional pad of some sort.

 

[Jumpman]

But still they share a very similiar design as the architecture of both CPU and GPU is pretty much the same: I know that Sony is doing some crazy stuff with the additional ARM system at place and MS uses ESRAM to cope with the ddr3 bandwidth limitations , and that both (PS4 and Xbone) are much more stripped down and "streamlined" versions, but still.
Porting an engine to a system where architecture (and the philosphy behind it) is pretty different shoule be a lot more work, in comparison.

When I first mentioned those three being similar, yeah, I was referring more to what you stated, than to all three having a "like" system in place to port games.

Most big developers while looking at these systems may see three very different situations(in regards to porting), but when they make a game for all three, the final product isn't to far apart performance wise(maybe it's more work, but they see the benefits in the end). Of course if you have a monster PC, that is always going to rule, but most developers know that's a niche market compared to a large consoles installed based, especially if it's been around awhile.

So yeah, I just didn't think the NS would be seeing many games that these three will, due to just the great divide in regards to power, and the rather small user base it will have. Sadly, "N" will always be in this "need credit, to get credit" situation. They need great games to up the installed user base to sale a greater amount of games, but without the large user base, no one will make the games. It's sad, but it's their reality.

Chris

 

[Jebe457]

Most big developers while looking at these systems may see three very different situations(in regards to porting), but when they make a game for all three, the final product isn't to far apart performance wise(maybe it's more work, but they see the benefits in the end). Of course if you have a monster PC, that is always going to rule, but most developers know that's a niche market compared to a large consoles installed based, especially if it's been around awhile.

No, it's not.

http://steamspy.com/#tab-graphs
Number of current Active Steam Users: 212 Million

Current Playstation 4 hardware unit estimate: 49 Million
Current XBox 1 Hardware unit estimate: 25.5 Million
Current Wii U Hardware unit estimate: 13.7 Milllion

So to review the current number of Active Steam Users exceeds the hardware unit totals of any console ever sold, and is over twice the entire combined 8th Generation Home Console market. Of those only the Playstation 4 can makes claims of being financially health, and it's top ten games by units sold are:

CoD: BO3
GTA V
FIFA 17
FIFA 16
SW Battlefront
CoD: AW
Fallout 4
Uncharted 4
FIFA 15
CoD IW

So to review that's 3 iterations of FIFA, 3 CoDs, GTA V, SW Battlefront, and Uncharted 4 as the Playstation 4's top ten. Out of 1316 Titles the PS4 drops below 1 Million software units at #83, below 500k at #133, below 250k at #189 and most would struggle to name 5 solid exclusives on the platform. In turn there are memes about the things collecting dust.

Along those lines currently ~95% of the XBox One's games are available on PC with the exceptions largely being Kinetic games. The Playstation 4 in turn stands at ~91% of its library being available on PC. Legitimately bad ports in turn are rare enough that Console Gamers are still hanging onto referencing Arkham Knight, despite the port having been fixed around a year ago. Of course part of the reason Steam's library is as big as it is, is because of its massive pull of all the games from all the platforms which has helped fuel the growth of Steam and the associated trends.

Estimates in turn put the size of the average Steam library significantly higher, and the library of games on Steam alone utterly dwarfs those of any home console, with top sellers tending to actually represent diverse genres.

 

[Jumpman]

I don't personally use Steam, but any time I see any games being offered there, there are mostly pennies on the dollar, and most games seem to be given away for the most part. Pricing on Steam seems to be the exact opposite of console pricing, physical or digital.

But like I said, I don't use Steam, so I may be wrong. But most forums that I frequent, I normally only see those using Steam for rather cheap games that they buy for next to nothing, and hardly ever play. 212 million active users pretty much mean that's how many users have accounts correct? If I bought a game 10 years ago through Steam, and haven't bought another one since, wouldn't I be considered an active user? Do they charge a monthly or annual service fee? I'm asking as I honestly don't know.

Out of 15-20 friends I know who game, maybe one uses Steam on a regular basis. Everyone else console games. I've only ever seen Steam as a rather cheap digital only service. If it's something more, I guess I'm wrong.

Chris

 

[FaeMinx]

I use Steam quite a lot.
As far as I know there is no service fee. A few of the games I bought that were hard copies from a game store, were actually games for Steam... And a few of my old games that are no longer supported by the original publishers (Arkham City), have been moved to Steam (All I had to do was put in my product key).

What I enjoy about it is that my saves are backed up automatically... so if I install on another machine, I can start up right where I left off.
Updates can be automated (they are on by default), or you can set to update only when you choose. Steam has a very efficient download manager which is hassle free... and if your game breaks (if you muck about with the files), you can verify the integrity of your installation and needed files are downloaded automatically.

Other bonuses to Steam:
Apart from in-game achievements, there are usually added Steam achievements.
All DLC is readily available if you want it...
You can brows the workshop (mods), and subscribe to have those mods automatically updated, and just as easily unsubscribe.

You can choose to follow certain titles, or put games / DLC on your wishlist... and you will be notified when they go on sale (I have gotten quite a few games this way).

Steam learns the kind of games you like and adds noteworthy titles to your 'queue' ... that you can brows at your leisure.

I haven't used any of the social aspects of Steam (as I am antisocial), but as far as I know you can bring up chat windows while in-game, grab and share screenshots, movies, whatever. Everything you need for your favourite games from guides, to forums, to community artwork is all easily accessible from within the Steam client.

Also, when checking out a game - you can read extensive reviews from other users on the game's store page.

Once you have downloaded a game, you can back up the installation (I just copy my whole Steam library to another location)... so If I install Steam on another machine, I just copy the contents of my library to the new location, and steam will detect already present files when you choose to install a game you already have... so no need to download it again.

In my country, games stores only stock best selling current titles and a couple classic best sellers... their selection is very dry, and I personally do not agree with popular taste.

Steam to the rescue... the selection is massive, and if I am patient... I can get quality games I am interested in at ridiculously low prices I never would have if bought in a games store.

In my opinion, Steam is awesome.

 

[thatgui]

I don't personally use Steam, but any time I see any games being offered there, there are mostly pennies on the dollar, and most games seem to be given away for the most part. Pricing on Steam seems to be the exact opposite of console pricing, physical or digital.But like I said, I don't use Steam, so I may be wrong. But most forums that I frequent, I normally only see those using Steam for rather cheap games that they buy for next to nothing, and hardly ever play

There is a "sales" trend pushing the prices extremly hard over last few years - but thats not only affecting Steams prices (but it pratically represents the market as Steam rules it). Tripple A titles are affected by that too, but not that hard, the prices are relativly high for the first few week(months) but usually still lower then on consoles. This trend had the sideeffect, that a lot of games are actually bought to just rot in an account, because they are so cheap, but that doesn't mean those games are never played: the PC gaming market has just so much to offer that there is a lot of niche stuff that is bought by millions (due to the price) but activly played only by a couple of (houndred)thousands.

. 212 million active users pretty much mean that's how many users have accounts correct? If I bought a game 10 years ago through Steam, and haven't bought another one since, wouldn't I be considered an active user? Do they charge a monthly or annual service fee? I'm asking as I honestly don't know.

212 million is probably the number of accounts - as Steam is rather open about their usage statistics, "dead" accounts may have already been removed from that number. But I doubt thats the number of really/daily active users, last time I read something about it it should be about 12-15 Million people (which corresponds with the statistics Steam offers)
There is no monthly fee - which (from the point of view of a mainly PC oriented gamer) sounds very strange to have. I rembember thinking "wtf" when I discovered that in order to play multiplayer games on a xbox360 I had to actually give money to MS - and a second "wtf" when I realized that even after giving money to MS I still had to endure advertisement on the dashboard.
This is something I am pretty confident about: Nintendo should have held back on that, for the switch (at least for 12 or even 24 Months): all the social crap I don't care about at all, but most of the market does is something Nintendo is still falling short on, for several years now. With no real "social pull effect" to generate additonal sales they should at least have kept it free in the beginning to have another usp (even if it is not a decisive one) on the console market. Which is especially odd as they clearly are trying to target the whole social (not social network gaming like Farmville) gaming angle with their advertisment and their start lineup.

Out of 15-20 friends I know who game, maybe one uses Steam on a regular basis. Everyone else console games. I've only ever seen Steam as a rather cheap digital only service. If it's something more, I guess I'm wrong.
Chris

For me its the other way round: most of my friends and people I grew up with started with consoles (usually Nintendo) and as soon as PCs began to ascend into a an affordable pringe range switched to the PC as gaming plattform. While some of them switched back to consoles (either Playstation or Xbox, Wii(U) usually only as a second device) most of them remained PC gamers.

 

[rygD]

@FaeMinx, you should add me on Steam so I can check out games you like.

Many of the people I know elsewhere that play games use Stream. Some use it for most of their gaming needs and others, including some hardcore gamer types, only use it for a few games. Some of the older games I bought physical copies of were my first Stream games, and I added the keys and had them their, including updates and ports (Linux!). I prefer to have physical copies of games (cartridges are my favorite, as I can easily destroy a CD or DVD without noticing it) and it is great to have a backup copy available to download. I don't mind too much if I pay little or nothing for a game and don't get a physical media, as I can just copy it. I am not all for Stream, however I do think it has some value and has pushed a lot of things in good directions in the industry.

 

[FaeMinx]

@FaeMinx, you should add me on Steam so I can check out games you like.

 

[rygD]

Go ahead and spray me with funny smelling stuff.