More Pandora 2 crap (MicroSD Split)

[Exophase]

I'm pretty sure we all have a good grasp on the size of an SD card vs the size of a microSD card, thanks. Implying we must be blind idiots doesn't make a great argument.


Ignore phones for a second - many of them don't come with external storage slots to begin with and rely on internal NAND. SD isn't dead in other handhelds. Look at 3DS: full SD slot. A lot of people who want at least one SD slot aren't demanding two of them - one SD and one microSD would be a reasonable compromise.


Craig is telling me now iCP2 represents what the Pandora 2's base size will be, and indeed this is much smaller than Pandora 1's. Too small for one SD + one microSD? I doubt it, especially if the microSD goes in the top. These aren't phones, these are clamshells with keyboards and gaming controls, they will NEVER be as thin as phones, and most phones don't have 5+" screens but instead use something a lot smaller.


Interesting factoid - look at iCP2's dimensions and you'll find they're dead on what the dimensions of a 16:9 5" LCD would be. Probably not much of a coincidence. Unfortunately, this requires ZERO LCD bezel, something I'm not aware of ANY phone doing. So yeah, good luck with that one too, OPT.

 

[ferrule]

These guys seem to have no clue how high a percentage of the surface area of the board that a full sized SD card takes. I would think that the two SD card slots take more than 5% of the surface of the circuit board. The uSD card sockets take only 1/4 the surface area as the full sized socket.


I would like to see them add an interface to support some form of solid state drive that can do wear levelling.

If the storage is too slow then the computer is useless. This is why everyone should have and SSD..


How does this sound: "These guys seem to have no clue how crippled a computer is running off slow disk"


I won't buy it if it's limited to 10MB/s.

 

[Grench]

These guys seem to have no clue how high a percentage of the surface area of the board that a full sized SD card takes. I would think that the two SD card slots take more than 5% of the surface of the circuit board. The uSD card sockets take only 1/4 the surface area as the full sized socket.


I would like to see them add an interface to support some form of solid state drive that can do wear levelling.

Actually, that isn't quite true. The entire footprint of the card does not have to be 'lost'.


The SD card connector's true electronic footprint is a row of 9 pins. There is nothing stopping there from being thin components underneath or on the other side of the board but inside the SD card's in-case footprint. There are also 'tall' pin connectors that raise it up off the motherboard by up to 1.5 mm with structure supports that can free up the space under them.


Most quality SDXC cards these days already do wear leveling. They have a lot more in common with SSD drives than you're giving them credit for.

 

[Grench]

We're ditching it because we want to make the P2 smaller and not a brick.


And yes, I think once we reach sizes like 256GB *2 (ie 512GB) it ceases to be a big issue - and 512, 1TB will come.


I don't see phone owners refusing to buy the latest super-phones because they don't have giant SD slots on them.


You don't fancy compact flash?

Craig - it really feels like you're ignoring those of us who use the Pandora as a computer. MicroSD is fine for phones - nobody uses a phone as a serious computer. That is why I bought a Pandora. I didn't want a phone - I wanted a tiny full-on computer with durable controls. The fact that it can play games is a bonus.


One of it's biggest selling points was that I could pull an SD card from my camera, put it in the 2nd SD slot and manipulate the picture files into named subdirectories, copy them around and even do minor editing. I use very nice cameras - none of them are microSD based - and I'm not about to start using adapters to put slower & lower capacity media in them.


Thank you for making the 1Ghz Pandora. I had planned on that lasting me until at least January of 2014 when I'd expect to see the Pandora 2. I guess it will have to last quite a bit longer than that - until something better than the 1Ghz Pandora comes along that can use at least two SDXC cards.


It's sad really - dual SDHC slots was one of the 'killer features' that made the Pandora unique. The nice surprise that they worked with re-formatted SDXC media so well was a huge bonus.

There isn't enough room. It's that simple. It's the same reason other manufacturers don't use old SD on portable, compact devices.

You seem very determined to go down this path. The 'other manufacturers' that you're referring to aren't making 'computers' they're making 'devices'. They have controlled the desktop, the application market, etc - they generally don't allow the end users to easily manipulate files on the device. On 'those devices' the apps are tiny, the interfaces limited and they rarely care what the data transfer speed is since it's always going to be slower than the cellular data connection that is feeding to and from the card.


Stack two SDXC connectors on top of each other on one end of the device and make the battery last 90 minutes less if you need the space to have them, but please don't loose them. You could make the greatest microSD device ever and it would still feel like someone castrated it.


Please - give this some more thought. There must be a way to make them fit.

 

[_wb_]

Please don't make decisions that will effectively turn the Pandora 2 into a smartphone with an icp2 permanently attached to it and without the ability to call. There will be no reason to buy it.

 

[Binky]

We're ditching it because we want to make the P2 smaller and not a brick.


And yes, I think once we reach sizes like 256GB *2 (ie 512GB) it ceases to be a big issue - and 512, 1TB will come.


I don't see phone owners refusing to buy the latest super-phones because they don't have giant SD slots on them.


You don't fancy compact flash?

Craig - it really feels like you're ignoring those of us who use the Pandora as a computer. MicroSD is fine for phones - nobody uses a phone as a serious computer. That is why I bought a Pandora. I didn't want a phone - I wanted a tiny full-on computer with durable controls. The fact that it can play games is a bonus.


One of it's biggest selling points was that I could pull an SD card from my camera, put it in the 2nd SD slot and manipulate the picture files into named subdirectories, copy them around and even do minor editing. I use very nice cameras - none of them are microSD based - and I'm not about to start using adapters to put slower & lower capacity media in them.


Thank you for making the 1Ghz Pandora. I had planned on that lasting me until at least January of 2014 when I'd expect to see the Pandora 2. I guess it will have to last quite a bit longer than that - until something better than the 1Ghz Pandora comes along that can use at least two SDXC cards.


It's sad really - dual SDHC slots was one of the 'killer features' that made the Pandora unique. The nice surprise that they worked with re-formatted SDXC media so well was a huge bonus.

There isn't enough room. It's that simple. It's the same reason other manufacturers don't use old SD on portable, compact devices.

You seem very determined to go down this path. The 'other manufacturers' that you're referring to aren't making 'computers' they're making 'devices'. They have controlled the desktop, the application market, etc - they generally don't allow the end users to easily manipulate files on the device. On 'those devices' the apps are tiny, the interfaces limited and they rarely care what the data transfer speed is since it's always going to be slower than the cellular data connection that is feeding to and from the card.


Stack two SDXC connectors on top of each other on one end of the device and make the battery last 90 minutes less if you need the space to have them, but please don't loose them. You could make the greatest microSD device ever and it would still feel like someone castrated it.


Please - give this some more thought. There must be a way to make them fit.

Completely agree here 100%


but I think Grench misses a point:


Cameras (the real ones with optical zoom etc) and camcorders use SDXC


These will not die off in the near future (phone cameras have tiny fixed lenses covered in finger grease)


Their resolution keeps getting bigger, and so do their requirements for read/write speed.


Even if its the only "outdated" feature on the P2, I'd prefer Full Size SD over microsd.


Put the slots on a swappable module if you will, but seriously, the Pandora concept does not describe a phone. Not even a games console, but a true multipurpose device.


I do not want an android-powered handheld console with a keyboard and physical controls - Its that simple


I want as much of the functionality of a linux laptop as possible crammed into my pocket.

 

[Askarus]

CRAIG, LISTEN TO COMMUNITY.


Finally stop your ego trip. I can't stand this.


Blinky, _wb_, Grench and Exophase have some good arguments. LISTEN to them.


Here's an other argument: In Pandora 1 are also 2 full sized SD slots. I don't think that it's such a problem to keep them. We don't speak about something new. We already have them, so where's the problem.


Getting a slower and smaler microSD into P2 will be a DOWNGRADE!!!! THAT'S INTOLERABLE for a high end device !!!.


If you want Pandora 2 to be modular with some stuff behind the screen then there will be even more space on the board's backside behind the keyboard.


I don't see any serious reason why there should be no room left.


Pandora is driven by community. If you ignore people they will go. Understand!


Don't say this two posts are a serious communication. There are no real arguments except SDXC are to big to fit inside. I say they are in Pandora 1. Pandora 2 won't failure if you'd take full sized SD-cards.


You also say in Phones are micro SD-Cards. Those skilled people above told you some arguments why Pandora isn't a phone and why normal SD-cards won't die.


Both of your arguments are not verry defensible.


Please listen to skilled people and the mayority here: Linux user, not people who want

a smartphone with an icp2 permanently attached to it and without the ability to call

 

[bismuthdrummer]

Those fucking tiny flakes are so irritating to pick up and position betweeen my thumb and forefinger (forget another finger helping), and the insert response is always less than assuring, regardless of the device.


The last thing I need is for my cat to eat my entire emulation collection, savegames and all... at least then I'd have a reason to strangle out my rage on the cat about how we managed to come so far in technology that our greatest handheld computer has removable drives that a feline could confuse with kitty food, thereby forcing me to perform immediate kitchen surgery just to get my savegames back. Thankfully I only have two microSD cards and no cat, but would you really want to run the risk of this happening?


I agree with pretty much everything above about microSD vs SD. I would also take only one "old, big" SD slot over only 2 microSD slots (were that the only choice, which I am sure it is not). 1 of each is also ok.


Can we at least get MWeston in here to support the claim that full sized SD is too big? I am just baffled on how a credit-card-sized ARM computer can take full sized SD (along with RJ45, USB, analog AND digital A/V) but we cannot. If the Raspberry Pi can do it, you can do it.

 

[grydholt]

CRAIG, LISTEN TO COMMUNITY.


Finally stop your ego trip. I can't stand this.


Blinky, _wb_, Grench and Exophase have some good arguments. LISTEN to them.


Here's an other argument: In Pandora 1 are also 2 full sized SD slots. I don't think that it's such a problem to keep them. We don't speak about something new. We already have them, so where's the problem.


Getting a slower and smaler microSD into P2 will be a DOWNGRADE!!!! THAT'S INTOLERABLE for a high end device !!!.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but do we expect microSD to be both slower and smaller? What I gathered from Exophase's posts was that microSD and SD are roughly comparable if both are available at the same size. Again, sorry if I missed the point, but it is kind of hard to stay on track with all the interspersed flaming.


Personally, I think the Pandora 2 should be microSD. If the Pandora could be even just a fraction smaller as a result, it would be a big win for me. And I believe that phones will drive the microSD performance to an acceptable level in a few years time.


/grydholt

 

[_wb_]

CRAIG, LISTEN TO COMMUNITY.


Finally stop your ego trip. I can't stand this.


Blinky, _wb_, Grench and Exophase have some good arguments. LISTEN to them.


Here's an other argument: In Pandora 1 are also 2 full sized SD slots. I don't think that it's such a problem to keep them. We don't speak about something new. We already have them, so where's the problem.


Getting a slower and smaler microSD into P2 will be a DOWNGRADE!!!! THAT'S INTOLERABLE for a high end device !!!.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but do we expect microSD to be both slower and smaller? What I gathered from Exophase's posts was that microSD and SD are roughly


comparable if both are available at the same size. Again, sorry if I missed the point, but it is kind of hard to stay on track with all the interspersed flaming.

If both are available, prices are similar (well, except for the high-end cards, there the SD cards tend to be cheaper than the microSD cards). But that's a big if. The main point is that bigger sizes and higher speeds tend to be available in full SD first - and by the time microSD catches up, the next generation of full SD has arrived. This will not change anytime soon - it's the same technology, and full SD just has more room for capacity and controllers.

Personally, I think the Pandora 2 should be microSD. If the Pandora could be even just a fraction smaller as a result, it would be a big win for me. And I believe that phones will drive the microSD performance to an acceptable level in a few years time.

That is true, but cameras will drive the full SD performance up even more in the next years. Phones typically don't need high-speed high-capacity storage compared to cameras, because their storage needs are mostly read-only (maybe you will watch full HD movies on the newest phones, but you'll probably not record full HD movies on them).


I still don't see why space would be an issue: it is possible to have 2 full SD slots on the Pandora 1, and so far most people only want to make the Pandora 2 thinner, not smaller in the other dimensions. At least 1 full SD slot should be possible.


We could also go completely without physical storage and force you to put everything in the cloud. That would allow the Pandora 2 to be even smaller. Big win! </sarcasm>

 

[Askarus]

If both are available, prices are similar (well, except for the high-end cards, there the SD cards tend to be cheaper than the microSD cards). But that's a big if. The main point is that bigger sizes and higher speeds tend to be available in full SD first - and by the time microSD catches up, the next generation of full SD has arrived. This will not change anytime soon - it's the same technology, and full SD just has more room for capacity and controllers.

Thanks for your answer, that's exactly what I would have said.

 

[grydholt]

If both are available, prices are similar (well, except for the high-end cards, there the SD cards tend to be cheaper than the microSD cards). But that's a big if. The main point is that bigger sizes and higher speeds tend to be available in full SD first - and by the time microSD catches up, the next generation of full SD has arrived. This will not change anytime soon - it's the same technology, and full SD just has more room for capacity and controllers.

Thank you for the answer. I'm not going to lose any sleep over missing out on the possible gains of full SD cards. I think most people will do just fine with whatever microSD is available when the Pandora 2 is ready.


I can see the point in having a fast card for an OS, but you should be able to buy a fast microSD for that (perhaps it won't be as big as a full SD card, but then again how much space to you need for the OS anyway?). And next to that you can have a slower microSD card with data.

That is true, but cameras will drive the full SD performance up even more in the next years. Phones typically don't need high-speed high-capacity storage compared to cameras, because their storage needs are mostly read-only (maybe you will watch full HD movies on the newest phones, but you'll probably not record full HD movies on them).


I still don't see why space would be an issue: it is possible to have 2 full SD slots on the Pandora 1, and so far most people only want to make the Pandora 2 thinner, not smaller in the other dimensions. At least 1 full SD slot should be possible.

As far as I can tell the SD slots take up almost 1/8 of the bottom of the pcb - if some of that space can be put to use for other features, I'm all for that.


Part of the reason that I'm pro-microSD, is that I'm currently using two micro SD cards in the pandora 1, simply because they were the best bang for the buck that I could find in Denmark.

 

[the_marshal]

I definitely see the point about microSD using much less space. The fact that we now have 64GB microSD card at reasonable price will not make using microSD a dealbreaker for me. But honnestly I would much prefer the conveniance of using my existing card and being able to user larger and cheaper full sized cards.


I don't care much about the Pandora 2 being smaller that the current one. It has never been a trully pockatable device for me. Sure it fits in a large pocket, but I would not necessarly carry it arround everywhere this way, like a would with a phone.

 

[Saber]

I'm all for two micro SD slots to save precious space and an OTG port to throw files back and forth between computers, but since the P2 is taking the modular approach, how about creating a svelt and imponderous expansion platter, that plugs into the bottom of Product 4, that brings along with it two full size SD slots and whatever else someone may need?

 

[_wb_]

I could live with one full SD slot and one microSD slot (which could be internal). That still saves space compared to the P1.


If you want to save even more space, get rid of the full-size USB port first - that one is less important for me than a full SD slot, since I'm rarely using USB peripherals and it's easy enough to find a microUSB to USB adapter, while you're never gonna be able to cram a full SD card into a microSD slot.


I still prefer two full SDXC slots though (that can deal with high speeds), with an additional internal microSD slot to replace the NAND. That would be an actual upgrade from the P1. Anything less than that is actually a downgrade. It's cool to make the P2 smaller than the P1, but please don't sacrifice important functionality to do it!


As to the modular approach: according to my understanding, this just means that the PCB containing the SoC will be easier to replace when new technology emerges. It doesn't mean that the P2 will become a Lego set of expansion modules you can click together in arbitrary ways to make your own custom device.

 

[diligentcircle]

Full USB is definitely more important to me than full SD...

 

[Grench]

I'm kind of surprised nobody has stated that full sized USB, "is not the future."


USB 3.0 definitely IS the future though - and really should be present on this type of device.


For the USB - I'd be satisfied with two USB 3.0 micro connectors and having OTG capabilities on one or both of them. They are -wider- than standard microUSB connectors as they have a side-car plug with additional pins.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Connector_USB_3_IMGP6033_wp_.jpg


If you're likely to need a full sized USB port - consider bringing along one of these:


http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10314&cs_id=1031403&p_id=8170&seq=1&format=1#largeimage


The USB needs to be on the 3.0 standard though, and the 'full sized' 3.0 port is really freekin' tall. http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10314&cs_id=1031403&p_id=8170&seq=1&format=1#largeimage


So - thin down those USB ports using microUSB 3.0. Each/either can be host or device. We can charge through them too - so you can eliminate the power adapter and 2 pin power connector.


That and eliminating the microSD footprints should save enough internal volume to put the SD card slots back in.

 

[Binky]

Why can't we have a phone/console version (model A) that fits comfortably in your pocket and lacks all the useful features supplied by:


The pocket computer version (model B) , with an extra layer between the motherboard and the battery, making the P2 about as pocketable as the P1 (i.e. kinda, with bigish pockets) , and containing twin Full SDXC, Full USB 3.0 and all the things that are in too much demand over here to be included in a best ever, premium, market leading, up-to-the-minute system.


?

 

[craigix]

This isn't just my decision, it's the decision of the whole team. And yes, I've double checked.


It's not going to have full sized SD. It takes up too much space.


Getting angry won't change this.

 

[ShleeDragon]

This isn't just my decision, it's the decision of the whole team. And yes, I've double checked.


It's not going to have full sized SD. It takes up too much space.


Getting angry won't change this.

People like the full-size.. but if it's done. it's done. *Next*

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KrDcAzD6cWM?feature=oembed