Let there be boards (2010 - 12 - 02)

[SNESFAN]

Yeah, this is what I've been thinking. Penalties for late delivery, because the date it part of the package; if you're late, you're not delivering what's been paid for, therefore I want a discount, please - sort of thing.

so by my calculations


*tick tick tick tick*


carry the one...


ED... you owe me...


*tick tick tick tick*


just about $3,000 in discounts... for 2 years of delays


ya know... just whenever you get the chance

 

[Wootson]

Well, I completely understand what EvilDragon says, if they didn't take this risk then the project would not have existed in the first place. But to me this says that whatever company does not agree with a contract, does not take itself very seriously and does not like to take a little risk and invest in new partners. After all, if they succeed, OpenPandora succeeds, and they both make nice partners for future projects and profits.


I think we can trust this board producer though, they already have produced 900 so far. So why shouldn't they produce the rest? It's not that I can't see the project finish or something. I was just wondering why all this hassle needs to be there when it could have "easily" be evaded via contracts with policies attached.


And indeed, suing the bastards is also not a very good option at this very moment. Could mean another LONG delay, and probably even the end of the project.

 

[benji_stein]

The remaining nubs, as I said above. 2000 are already in Texas, that's enough for 1000 finished boards.


According to the company in Texas, they have all boards finished and tested now (nubless) and they only need 2 weeks to put ALL the nubs on (for all 3000 boards!)

Ok, thanks. I thought it was a bit ambiguous.

That's what they say, it's up to you if you believe them.


Nothing will happen during christmas time, that's for sure. The companies all close down.


We will be working, if we have anything to work on though.

I'll believe it when we hear back from Trey.

Well, then add 5 days of shipping to the cases, which means that they will be in UK long before the rest of the boards are there.

5 days shipping, if you can get on a plane immediately, and there are no more unforeseen natural disasters. It's also worth mentioning that along with Christmas, there probably won't be much that happens there until after new years. Factor in a week or so for catching up on other projects, work, emails, whatever, (they said two weeks to do it, not that they'd do it immediately), and that's already almost a month. Chinese New Year is then again coming up (Feb 3rd, 2011), which adds further uncertainty/difficulty shipping the cases so quickly.

Then please share with me what's missing in your opinion, except for the remaining nubs that are in production and the boards that are in production.


When we delivered the Pandoras, nothing was missing as well. That the nubs all failed had nothing to do with anything "missing".


900 Pandoras are out in the wild for months and no board has failed. The only thing that has failed were the nubs.


Sure, we shouldn't forget that the US president might eventually launch a nuclear weapon strike at the board company, because he pressed the wrong button...

I don't have anything in particular in mind. But, then, I didn't expect any issues with the nubs, shoulder buttons, LCD cables, volcanoes, case painting, wireless, silkscreening, or anything else that's happened in this long ordeal. There have been countless times in this process where nothing else was expected to be needed or an issue - and it would only be two months longer. Pretty much every time you gave that time estimate, in fact (and there were a lot of those). I don't try to make guesses anymore, but I also try not to use the words "what else could go wrong"?

I need to order at least 1000 TV Out Cables. They cost money (a couple of thousand EUR).


We don't know yet if the board production company is really working or lying to us. We'll find that out hopefully when Trey is visiting them or when they ship the next batch of boards.


Can you assure me no one is going to ask for a refund when the company still is working slowly?

I look forward to that, as well. I certainly can't guarantee that there won't be refunds requests if there's bad news. But I also can't guarantee there won't be any if there aren't. I personally think dates are more important to people, and fear what will happen around Christmas/New Years. On the other hand, if you need to order a minimum of 1000, you'll have to order that either way, no? I can't believe all of the preorders that include cables will be cancelled (I know of a number of people that have Pandoras and are waiting for a cable, including a number of ones that were sold in auction). Unless the concern is about how many more cables than 1000 to buy, you're going to have to purchase the minimum either way. So I wonder again why wait?


Interesting observation - if they cost a couple thousand EUR (call it 4k EUR ~= $5.3k USD). That's an impressive markup, even including shipping costs. (No, I don't begrudge you this, and am still happy to pay for a cable).

When the current company ships the next 1000 boards, I'm assured that production there is okay now and can happily order the cables.

I'd thought that too, once the first 700 Pandoras shipped, and look where we are, now.

If not, you never know what will happen. Of course we'll try to manage, but I rather have TV Out Cables delayed than running out of money shortly before we resolve the production because I spent that money on the cables already.

Understandable, I suppose. Can't you do something like you (said you) did with the cases/boards, where you only pay on receipt (or perhaps only part of it before)? Because the cable company is the same as the case company, right? And they've been completely wrong in estimates in the past, which also makes me suspect these dates...


As far as suing the board company goes, I completely understand not doing so yet. It would only serve to add more delays, since they obviously wouldn't be making any more for you. But I sincerely hope that you decide to do so once these 4000 are finished, and if (hopefully *when*) you switch to another supplier.

 

[Link]

^


Can you let it go?


What will suing do after 4000 boards have been delivered? Nothing. No case, parts arrived today to finish 1000 boards. Why do you want to hurt the company who produced 900 good boards?


This bantering is useless and there are better things to do than scrutinize ED over every comment or timeframe he's given. I am in on batch 1 & 2 and feel the man has more important things to tend to than this.

 

[ledow]

I take it that it's not just me who's spotted the flaw in the "contracts would bind us too" argument - if you'd had a contract with the nub company, and their failure to deliver impacted future stages, then you could back things through *them* when it came to non-delivery to other companies further down the production line. And if a company was obliged to fulfill even a rough written estimate, it instantly gives you much better bargaining power. Hell, you should even have a contract (albeit probably implied by their standard terms and conditions) with shipping companies too.


I fail to believe that anyone expects to do millions of pounds worth of business (how much were the first delivery of boards, 900 completed Pandora's, further orders etc. worth again?) - and with other people's money at that - with companies who don't even speak their language without a paper contract in front of them. It might be how OP did it, but I don't believe for a second that's how it's expected to work for small companies the world over. You're telling me that the niche electronics, a single model of cheap Korean portable DVD player that sells a couple of hundred units, or a handful of garage door openers, or something in between, are expected to operate on a trust basis in order to reduce their costs? The manufacturers here can (legally) hold onto your money and give you one board a week and there's *nothing* you can do about that because you didn't lock down the dates beforehand? Even if it goes to court, if there's no explicit contract and yet they say that it was agreed they would deliver *eventually*, there's not much you can do. And what court would decide? No jurisdiction agreed? That's a nightmare in itself.


Even if they can't provide an exact date, this is why you solicit estimates and why, when those estimates turn out to be vastly incorrect, you still have a recourse. If my plumber says it'll cost "about £100" to fix a boiler but it costs £1000, I can quite happily refuse to pay if they don't consult me first. And you're telling me that a company that produces PCB's all day long doesn't know *roughly* how long it will take to push a certain number of PCB's through, even including some unknown testing time? Sounds like you got the back of the queue because you're the only ones who didn't insist on a contracted date.


And it *still* sounds like the lowest-bidder approach is the cause of all this. A company honestly *refuses* to give you a written estimate / deadline for a work that you commission and pay many thousands to them for? Seriously? Hell, I wouldn't take that for single-unit one-off printer supply, or £50,000 of networking gear for a client. However small-fry OP claim to be, I guarantee there's a more suitable company out there but it'll probably cost a bit more and would have delivered within a couple of months (so actually, you'd probably have *saved* money using them). Someone who wants to knock up a prototype FGPA, or even a nice PCB for a hobbyist electronics project, or a school that wants a handful of gadgets for its electronics course are small-fry and yet I don't hear horror stories from their side either - I have any number of sites bookmarked that can supply me with several hundred of their tiny prototype PCB's for everything from a ADSL router to a Beagleboard to a USB-IR receiver/transmitter to a heart-shaped LED Christmas decoration for schoolkids. Most can deliver within a week and have done so for several years. When you're talking thousands of paid-up customers, an established design, working prototypes, finished products, etc. then you aren't talking small-fry, especially with the capital invested in this already.


You chose a crappy company and didn't rein them in and now it's into the farce stages. The greatest thing in this whole project is the entertainment factor. Over on the GP32x boards, dingoo-digital-usa has mentioned that they are starting their own prototype console. Although technically inferior to the Pandora's specs (though by the time most people get their hands on a Pandora...), something tells me that I would have better chance of getting one of those in my hand before a Pandora, and OP has had a two-year head-start.

 

[Tor]

About LiPo batteries.. My guess these batteries have fairly good shelf life since they're becoming popular in Cell-phone and laptops.


From Wikipedia...

[The Wikipedia article is about how long the batteries keep charge, not how long the batteries last before they degrade. A vastly different thing.]


Unfortunately your guess is wrong. These batteries have terrible shelf life. I have bought new batteries for my phones and gadgets numerous times, and every single time the replacement battery (original manufacturer, mind) has had only a shadow of the strength the battery that came with the device used to have. The reason is time spent on the shelf, where they quietly degrade (which is _not_ the same as losing charge). Phone makers tend to come up with a new battery form factor for every new phone model, particularly in the past, so it's in practice impossible to buy freshly made batteries for your 2-3 year old phone. What you get as replacement battery is as old as your original battery, the only difference is that the new one hasn't been used. It still sucks as a battery.


And no, there hasn't been any magical new innovations in consumer lithium battery technology recently. The batteries made now suck just as much as those made 6 years or more ago.


As batteryuniversity.com puts it: 'Subject to aging, even if not in use - storage in a cool place at 40% charge reduces the aging effect.'. We know that shops and the like never store batteries in a cool place, instead they keep them on the shelf or on the wall. That's why I asked if our Pandora batteries have been stored in a fridge or a freezer, which is really the only thing that can reduce the degradation. If not, then the batteries we get are old batteries. Easy as that.

 

[Bigun]

[The Wikipedia article is about how long the batteries keep charge, not how long the batteries last before they degrade. A vastly different thing.]


Unfortunately your guess is wrong. These batteries have terrible shelf life. I have bought new batteries for my phones and gadgets numerous times, and every single time the replacement battery (original manufacturer, mind) has had only a shadow of the strength the battery that came with the device used to have. The reason is time spent on the shelf, where they quietly degrade (which is _not_ the same as losing charge). Phone makers tend to come up with a new battery form factor for every new phone model, particularly in the past, so it's in practice impossible to buy freshly made batteries for your 2-3 year old phone. What you get as replacement battery is as old as your original battery, the only difference is that the new one hasn't been used. It still sucks as a battery.


And no, there hasn't been any magical new innovations in consumer lithium battery technology recently. The batteries made now suck just as much as those made 6 years or more ago.


As batteryuniversity.com puts it: 'Subject to aging, even if not in use - storage in a cool place at 40% charge reduces the aging effect.'. We know that shops and the like never store batteries in a cool place, instead they keep them on the shelf or on the wall. That's why I asked if our Pandora batteries have been stored in a fridge or a freezer, which is really the only thing that can reduce the degradation. If not, then the batteries we get are old batteries. Easy as that.

Surely the OPT would stand behind us on this if that be the case.

 

[Link]

@Ledow,


You might want to read back a few threads in the Official News section.


Contracts exist. They are called email communications. What's up with your rant?


The nub company fixed the issue after it was identified. Its taken time.


An American company being the lowest bidder. You are entertaining at that. If an American company was the lowest bidder then a middle class in the US has a chance for survival in this corportocracy that is running the planet. Lowest bidders aren't in the US, bankrupt bankers are.


Regarding Dingoo Digital US, I am gonna put down my phone and pick up a wonderful Pandora now. In that time, the specs for your Dingoo Digital US prototype will change while women of Asian descent are likely putting nubs on Pandora boards under a big US flag being watched by a man in a 3 piece suit with a handlebar mustache.

 

[sbt]

I hope this is the end of the delays and the start of the shipping soon. It's been a long time since Day One ordering and seeing as I have just cancelled my Amazon account due to the Wikileaks fiasco....(that means no Kindle), I need my Pandora to play with!

 

[Msquared]

I'm approximately 850 in Craig's queue...

How do we find out where we are in the queue?

 

[moz]

How do we find out where we are in the queue?

You need to email your supplier, and ask for your approximate position in queue.

 

[WizardStan]

You need to email your supplier, and ask for your approximate position in queue.

Please don't. It's an imprecise position that causes more problems than it solves.

 

[Lanonov]

Please don't. It's an imprecise position that causes more problems than it solves.

just wait another Two Months™ like we all do