Keyboard Poll, Finally!

[Kings]

I still believe that the game controls (analog nubs, L&R triggers, D-pad and YABX buttons) should be left out of the keyboard configuration. Every app and every game is going to use those buttons differently.

The easiest way to appease everyone would be a small on-screen keyboard for rarely used characters. There is no need for Home, End, Pg up or Pg down. It would make more sense to hold a button to change mouse control into scroll.

 

[GernotFrisch]

You can put whatever keys you like on your keyboard. I WILL NOT SUPPORT UNICODE nor any of these cryptic fonts, no matter what your keyboard says.
Isn't the Pandora mainly targeted at GAMES? Why would you need Chinese characters!?

 

[peca]

I doesn't matter if some keyboard function are or not mapped on game buttons. Games takeover buttons and keyboard by own routines independent on kernel.

 

[_VWV_]

The original layout also had Fn in the right corner. As virtually every key has a Fn effect, it's always going to be close to something. (P & L on the original)
As for how you can press those sequences: Sticky Keys. (Press Fn, release, press next key.)


Original layout doesn't have frequently used keys like Wi-Fi control and TAB at THE CLOSEST proximity to FN. I know we will have to sacrifice something but if I have to choose between bad and the worst, I'd prefer the first variant. Why use sticky keys if there's a possibility not to use them at least in most frequent cases?

It'll be a pain to press these keys.

That's right, because the original layout didn't even have a key to toggle wireless. (Presumably you'd have to hit Menu, go to Settings, then Wireless, then select Enable Wireless. Which, of course, you'll still be able to do.)


I'll be able to map a Wi-FI control key to W. Original design is good because it allows extensive remapping according to ones understanding of the perfect keyboard.

 

[gp32rich]

I've not voted coz I can't decide on which layout between cosurgi, greendots or kagato. They're very nice
I don't care whether accents are printed or not, I'll ignore what I don't need.


And frankly I don't give a damn. I hope the OS allows you to easily set a new keymap and macros [with modifiers] so I can set the keyboard to whatever style I choose.

And if it can't - well, I'll not be touch typing with this (unless I get my fat fingers sharpened ) so it'll be a short learning curve to adapt my telephone-text-style thumb-typing to this new keyboard.


Neat work on gathering all the information and options for the poll though you did miss off an option for 'I don't care I just want my pandora'

 

[Hotcooler]

You can do laser engraving for 50 bucks, maybe it's a good deal for you.



Actualy I was just ranting I dont think I will do anything with keyboard. I think I can remember where is buttons mapped At least I'll try. If I will not succeed I'll think of something and report here.

QUOTE
Just print off your stickers on a regular ink jet printer, and cut them out yourself


First off I dont really like stickers. And IMO home made stickers will suck.

 

[andyB911]

Thanks cosurgi for organising this poll and to all the others who took the time to put together a keyboard. Easy to get side-tracked by the 'it doesn't matter, its just a keyboard' or the 'it must / can't have this accent' distractors.

The keyboard is one of the things that will make the Pandora different from any other comparable gaming handheld and so the effort to get it right is worthwhile.

If nothing else, when it comes out and the bitching kicks off, we can point them to all of threads to show that there is no single answer to this - there is no one solution that will please everyone.

For what its worth, I voted (h) - I don't use accents but can live with them if the keys are still clear, 'c' although can live with any of the options, and 'b' for cosurgi.

We must be getting close to the devs having to make a final decision on the keyboard layout...

 

[kagato]

Original layout doesn't have frequently used keys like Wi-Fi control and TAB at THE CLOSEST proximity to FN. [...] Why use sticky keys if there's a possibility not to use them at least in most frequent cases?

Wait.. you think "Wifi" and "Tab" are going to be your most frequent Fn key presses?
More often than '"?&/+-= (etc) ? They all need you to press Fn.
Most people will use punctuation all the time, Tab rarely, and Wifi toggle at most once a session.

Now, if 'comma' or 'apostrophe' were too close to Fn, I'd agree, it's likely this sentence wouldn't have been fun to type...

QUOTE
I'll be able to map a Wi-FI control key to W. Original design is good because it allows extensive remapping according to ones understanding of the perfect keyboard.

Fair enough. Those of us without eidetic memories would prefer all the commonly required functions be labeled, which unfortunately involves finding a place to put them.
If you intend to remap the keyboard however you like even without labels, why does it matter to you what the actual labeling is?

 

[_VWV_]

Wait.. you think "Wifi" and "Tab" are going to be your most frequent Fn key presses?
More often than '"?&/+-= (etc) ? They all need you to press Fn.
Most people will use punctuation all the time, Tab rarely, and Wifi toggle at most once a session.

Now, if 'comma' or 'apostrophe' were too close to Fn, I'd agree, it's likely this sentence wouldn't have been fun to type...



Referring to your last sentence I think you've understood what I was trying to say. Let me add something to sound more understandable. There should be a gradient from most widely used FN-sensitive keys to less widely used with NOTHING at the closest proximity to FN.

Fair enough. Those of us without eidetic memories would prefer all the commonly required functions be labeled, which unfortunately involves finding a place to put them.
If you intend to remap the keyboard however you like even without labels, why does it matter to you what the actual labeling is?

1-st I think some layouts proposed for the poll will be hard to use that is why I'll have to a) remap some keys and B ) remove the engraved blue labels around FN which is hard to be done in an accurate way.
2-nd and the most important I wanted to ensure everybody understand what they are voting for. Some mentioned that they hadn't decided yet which layout is better. I'm trying to spot potential problems for those people to consider all + and - of each layout. Am I wrong here?
Edit. damm, when I write B) i get B) ... had to change it for b )

 

[kagato]

Referring to your last sentence I think you've understood what I was trying to say. Let me add something to sound more understandable. There should be a gradient from most widely used FN-sensitive keys to less widely used with NOTHING at the closest proximity to FN.

Agreed... but with the sheer number of functions that potentially need mapping, most of the layouts have found it necessary to map something to every single key. I think most have put the more infrequent keys right next to Fn, but I certainly concede there could be improvements in the punctuation priorities.
(Most layouts have instead tried to follow the QWERTY symbol order)
I'd be disappointed if the final layout put Fn & Compose keys too close together, for example.

QUOTE
2-nd and the most important I wanted to ensure everybody understand what they are voting for. Some mentioned that they hadn't decided yet which layout is better. I'm trying to spot potential problems for those people to consider all + and - of each layout. Am I wrong here?

No, that's a fair point. Your original tone didn't come across quite so even-handed though, that's all.

 

[nim]

my $0.02

I'd prefer even more minimalism than any of these (original is close though). I'd prefer all modifier keys (including Fn) and other debatable keys to be left blank (with perhaps a referable keycode on them) since I'm sure most savvy users will customise the hell out of the layout anyway.
this would be the most democratic way anyway and I doubt anyone who has contributed or voted on one of the overly defined layouts will know now that they won't change their mind (probably alot) after some time of actual use.

the bottom line is that we'll all want some non-alphanumerical typically programmable keys at bottom left and right and what's printed on them should really be left as minimalistic and standard as possible if anything.

why not buy a transparent decal sheet for printers and print your own layout?
this method seems nice and I guess it's meant to be durable (but doesn't elaborate on that).
http://www.paper-paper.com/xtreme-keyboard.html
when you're sure of your layout, nail polish or some sort of fusion paint should do fine.

(about VWV's comment on Fn operands close to the Fn key: you could have the key handler (fw or sw?) buffer a lone Fn press-release much like the '¨' and '~' behavior for next press of a valid operand (such as u: ü, n: ñ, space: ¨, ~ (or tab in this case, as a mere example?)))

to repeat my concerns: if ie. cosurgi's layout were to be used (since it's leading atm) I would end up with scrape-marks on almost every key.

I strongly vote against a great bloat of shift and fn operand labels. keeping it simple is more democratic than electing the most voted for all-out-defined candidate.

minimalism lends for greater fairness than a democratic choice of a fully bloated labeling.

oh and I voted for Caine's by mistake. wanted to vote for original layout (as it would leave me scraping off the least number of labels) in case it can be changed.

nice work with the poll. at the least a good way to make people think and discuss.

*gives painkillers for headache of dev team trying to please people with the keyboard labeling* edit: <- lol suckup.

 

[Immerman]

Okay, I admit I haven't read every post in every keyboard thread, so maybe somebody has already mentioned this, but it struck me all of a sudden:

Why isn't the Shift key on a shoulder button?

The whole point of having a keyboard is so that we can type, right? And the most common usage will almost certainly be thumb-typing, which makes the shoulder buttons pretty much the *only* option for usable modifier keys. So, what is the most frequently used modifier key on the keyboard? Shift. Sure, it's aesthetically nice to have it in more or less the "correct" place, but can anyone here honestly tell me they'll be able to use it normally where it's at?

So my vote on the shoulder buttons goes to Shift, and Fn if possible, so that we can also get to all the punctuation and function keys without going into contortions.

 

[_VWV_]

No, that's a fair point. Your original tone didn't come across quite so even-handed though, that's all.

I see we've found common ground .
It's not my tone, it's my unstable neuron networks and bad knowledge of English which makes weired output.
Let me say a few words about the infrequentness of using Wi-Fi toggle key. I though it would be used frequently, wouldn't it?. Because Wi-Fi eats a lot of energy and personally I was planning to disable wi-fi as soon as I don't need it. For example, do I need Wi-Fi to be active when I type this post? If I was doing it on andora1: I would have disabled it and enabled it prior to submitting the post (remember due to tiny keys typing on andora1: will take a lot of time and a lot of energy with Wi-Fi enabled). That is why I don't think it's the best solution to place a wi-fi toggle key near FN key.
EDIT: more replies

my $0.02

I'd prefer even more minimalism than any of these (original is close though). I'd prefer all modifier keys (including Fn) and other debatable keys to be left blank (with perhaps a referable keycode on them) since I'm sure most savvy users will customise the hell out of the layout anyway.
this would be the most democratic way anyway and I doubt anyone who has contributed or voted on one of the overly defined layouts will know now that they won't change their mind (probably alot) after some time of actual use.

the bottom line is that we'll all want some non-alphanumerical typically programmable keys at bottom left and right and what's printed on them should really be left as minimalistic and standard as possible if anything.

why not buy a transparent decal sheet for printers and print your own layout?
this method seems nice and I guess it's meant to be durable (but doesn't elaborate on that).
http://www.paper-paper.com/xtreme-keyboard.html


+1

(about VWV's comment on Fn operands close to the Fn key: you could have the key handler (fw or sw?) buffer a lone Fn press-release much like the '¨' and '~' behavior for next press of a valid operand (such as u: ü, n: ñ, space: ¨, ~ (or tab in this case, as a mere example?)))

Sorry I didn't get it . Who will determine the validness of operand? How can a piece of silicon know whether I want space or tab this second? Is there an algorithm or something?

to repeat my concerns: if ie. cosurgi's layout were to be used (since it's leading atm) I would just end up scraping what's printed off.

+1

oh and I voted for Caine's by mistake. wanted to vote for original layout since it would leave me scraping off the least number of labels.

+1

nice work with the poll. at the least a good way to make people think and discuss.

By the way I mist have forgotten to say the same thing. I appreciate the effort you guys have made to prepare this poll.

Nice idea Immerman.

 

[greendots]

Its not realistic to think you will be turning off wifi while you type a post or read a page. You'll also notice that pages will have errors in javascript and anything that is streaming.

Having most used Fn keypresses near the Fn button is not more efficient then on the opposite side of keyboard -using your other thumb. This is the type of thing dvorak is based on.

I based my design for the layout to be as near to QWERTY has possible with what we have and would thus have the lowest learning curve. Every key that would be absent with a 43 button keypad is close to where they would be if it was a standard 104 button keyboard. If possible the missing key with function mapping had standard keypress on the left with shift characteristic of that key on right. With a few extra buttons I what seemed most logical to any one using it for the first time. Wireless on the 'W' key, Contrast on and near the 'C' key, and Arrows for track controls and play/pause on the '<' and '>' keys.

Finally I'd like to say I'm surprised that anyone has chosen the original keypad. For one thing theres at least 2 commonly used keys missing. The only purpose of the original keymap was for nice 3D render. But what can be said is that those who voted for it would like a simple _looking_ key layout.

Looking at the poll it seems that Cosurgi's layout has been chosen most because of Alt and ctrl keys appearing on the keypad. The first thing I notice is that it will be impossible to hold alt+click to drag a window. This presents a problem with sticky keys and the WM. Also do we really need the entire analog stick and the 4 game buttons dedicated to moving through text? While X server is running you will mostly be using mouse scroll. While in a console you will be using your favorite text editor (emacs, vi, etc) which has its own, more sophisticated commands and controls.

Cosurgi's layout is the only one with ctrl and alt mapped to keyboard and has only english keys. The two poll questions also show a majority for those ideas. Albeit only 50 of the first 3000 batch with hopefully, many more batches to come.

 

[Caine]

QUOTE
And the most common usage will almost certainly be thumb-typin, which makes the shoulder buttons pretty much the *only* option for usable modifier keys.

I agree.
QUOTE
Why isn't the Shift key on a shoulder button?

Speaking for my own design only. Because Ctrl+Alt both on the left side makes it hard to make combinations on the left side of the keyboard. Place either of them on a specific side and it is hard to combine it with keys on the same side. Only solution I see is to double one of the modifiers. I chose shift since to me it made more sense to keep ctrl + alt together on similar buttons, but this choice is arbitrary.

My layout was designed to make it easy to strike any combination of [Ctrl/Alt/Shift] and any key on the keyboard (Emacs user) whilst maintaining a layout close to a regular US keyboard.

I would prefer the same for Fn, but couldn't find a completely satisfactory solution for that one.

<edit>
I had the idea to do something like this:
CODE

[L/Ctrl] [R/Alt]
+--------------------------------------------------+
| [,~][1!][2@][3#][4$][5%][6^][7&][8*][9(][0)] | Fn - Special symbol modifier
+--------------------------------------------------+ Sh - shift
| | X | Cr - return
| <-+-> [ ] [ ] A B |
| | Y | Caps = lshift+rshift
+--------------------------------------------------+ Tab = Fn+Space
|-----[q ][w ][e ][r ][t ][y ][u ][i ][o ][p ]-----| Wifi = Fn+return
|---[Fn][a ][s ][d ][f ][g ][h ][j ][k ][l ][Fn]---|
|-[Sh][Cr][z ][x ][c ][v ][b ][n ][m ][ ][Sh]-|
+--------------------------------------------------+


Perhaps with Fn and Shift swapped or maybe even Fn and shift on the back and Ctrl and Alt pairs on both the left and right.

However, I suspect most people want something recognizable and would be turned off by having return in the bottom left corner.

 

[cosurgi]

Looking at the poll it seems that Cosurgi's layout has been chosen most because of Alt and ctrl keys appearing on the keypad. The first thing I notice is that it will be impossible to hold alt+click to drag a window.
ouch. I should have thought about that. That's how I'm dragging windows here. Fortunately it can be solved if we swap "mouse move" with "mouse scroller" analog sticks. Then you press Alt with left thumb, LMB with second left finger, and drag with right thumb.

I think that nobody ever paid attention to this problem before, so I will "stealthly" fix that in my design, and swap those two. It might be unfair to change the layout wfter it received so many votes... but this change has a good reasoning to fix the problem. And after all - all orange buttons are just a suggestion, and aren't printed on the keyboard. So I'm only changing the suggestion, not the actual printed design. If anyone thinks that it's unfair to change design at this stage please let me know and I'll revert this.

EDIT:

@cosurgi I don't think you should change part way through a poll. Just edit the text and say that it can be used either way round.
Ok I'm sorry, reverted, and I will not do that again.

 

[WizardStan]

Looking at the poll it seems that Cosurgi's layout has been chosen most because of Alt and ctrl keys appearing on the keypad. The first thing I notice is that it will be impossible to hold alt+click to drag a window.
ouch. I should have thought about that. That's how I'm dragging windows here. Fortunately it can be solved if we swap "mouse move" with "mouse scroller" analog sticks. Then you press Alt with left thumb, LMB with second left finger, and drag with right thumb.

*blink*
Assuming Alt key is on the left, it's easy. Hold in left hand, press alt key, touch stylus to screen, drag window.
I've just simulated such a move with my DS. Works great if the alt key is on the L trigger. Or R trigger if you're left handed.
I still don't understand why people are mapping "mouse" to the analog sticks when you have a 1st order pointing device in the form of a touch screen. Can someone explain it, preferably using small words, because I'm clearly missing the point somewhere.

 

[DXR_13KE]

I still don't understand why people are mapping "mouse" to the analog sticks when you have a 1st order pointing device in the form of a touch screen. Can someone explain it, preferably using small words, because I'm clearly missing the point somewhere.

me neither, the stylus is a far superior pointing device than an analogue pad.

 

[danboid]

Seems most people are voting for cosurgis design, by a long way. Consurgis is fine with me except for one major flaw, that being the 'DELETE' key (you know, top right one) should be backspace on normal push and DELETE on Fn push, there is nothing more logical than this.

That key needs to be BACKSPACE on normal push as one of the most important Linux key combos is X11's CTRL ALT BACKSPACE when X goes titsup.

CTRL needs to be on the left hand side of the keyboard as people normally use it more than Alt (CTRL C etc) and its normally on the left hand side and its nice to have it right next to ALT as CTRL ALT and something are common key combos under X ie switching desktops.

To me it makes more sense to have CTRL and ALT marked on the keyboard as they're so important, then use L and R for mouse clicks

 

[cosurgi]

Seems most people are voting for cosurgis design, by a long way. Consurgis is fine with me except for one major flaw, that being the 'DELETE' key (you know, top right one) should be backspace on normal push and DELETE on Fn push, there is nothing more logical than this.

That key needs to be BACKSPACE on normal push as one of the most important Linux key combos is X11's CTRL ALT BACKSPACE when X goes titsup.

CTRL needs to be on the left hand side of the keyboard as people normally use it more than Alt (CTRL C etc) and its normally on the left hand side and its nice to have it right next to ALT as CTRL ALT and something are common key combos under X ie switching desktops.

To me it makes more sense to have CTRL and ALT marked on the keyboard as they're so important, then use L and R for mouse clicks

Backspace is a primary key. The left arrow, just like all numbers 1-0 are primary keys. I was thinking about ctrl-alt-backspace especially for that (*). However to obtain Del you currently need shift which is on left side. Curently we have:

Backspace = Backspace
Shift+Backspace=Del
Fn+Backspace=Insert

I'm not sure if such different one is better:

Backspace = Backspace
Shift+Backspace=Insert
Fn+Backspace=Del

then to press Del you would need to press two keys on the same side of the keyboard. Is that better? I really don't know....

EDIT: (*) in fact it's not me. It's Kagato who was thinking about Backspace
EDIT2: your remark is important, so I added a comment about that in the design. In bold