Independent Game Developers

[Pickle]

How exactly does having more power and more options make the device less desirable to developers?

More power == more boring.

I think your statement is too broad, for example GP2X < Pandora < PC.
So the Pandora is not boring cause its weaker than a full PC, but it is boring because its stronger than a GP2X?
Or maybe Pandora will be boring to a 2D game dev, but not to a 3D dev?
Maybe you need to explain your point more...

Just my 2 cents here...
One possible explanation I can think of is that to many developers interested in the GP2X, one of the main points that make the machine interesting is it's very limited resources. It's an interesting to squeeze as much out of such a box as is technically possible, and then some; an approach not unlike that seen in the demo scene (the C64 and Amiga scenes in particular) where the aim is to push your hardware of choice to it's limits in various imaginative and inventive ways. So, to developers with that particular mindset (they are highly prized in the game industry for obvious reasons), the Pandora may seem ridicilously overpowered and therefore fairly uninspiring to work with (since it's less of a challenge because you don't have to pay as much attention to optimising your code properly).

this may be the reason for demoing, but i dont thing it apply's to games. Ive seen a lot of instances of dev's saying well we wanted to do X, but with the performance level of the time we could only do Y. ID software I think it great example of this, they created engine after engine pushing the envelope of quality each time and it was all dependent of the hardware of the time.
You shouldnt let software dictate the hardware, but let the hardware dicatate the software.

 

[gmiller1018]

I am not sure where this is going as faar as target audience is concerned. The number of units produced will not even register for any of the other hand helds in all probability. The availability of emulators will attract a good size audience and the home brew will add to that. The units controls will either enhance the game play or get in the way, and that "can" be a software issue or hardware issue.

The length of play time and games/emulations available will be something that will draw a larger playing population. This platform will not attract commercial developers unless there is some way to protect their intellectual property.

The number of commercial games that run on Linux is an example of the draw that this platform will have in the marketplace. There have been very few commercial games targeted at or even runnable in a Linux environment since that population is such a small part of the computing environment.

This is not to say that I would not want Linux based games because I do develop for that platform. The economies of scale here are stacked towards the PC and console environments. Most of the game companies I know do not want to develop for a small audience since the number of units that they can sell is so limited that their high overhead would require them to sell for a high price. There is also the piracy issue that comes up, since it can not be eliminated, when doing games for small populations.

I am not interested in commercial games for the platform because I want to create my own, use other platform emulators, and run other home brew code. I old DOS days there were games that you could buy for less that 30 dollars (US) that were great and were fun to play. For a hand-held game environment price is going to be a big factor, in my opinion.

I look forward to the new platform because it will give me something I can develop for and a potential platform I can use in a classroom environment that will not set me back a minimum of 2K per station and forbid me from giving the students the development tools.

 

[Chip]

Just my 2 cents here...
One possible explanation I can think of is that to many developers interested in the GP2X, one of the main points that make the machine interesting is it's very limited resources. It's an interesting challenge to squeeze as much out of such a box as is technically possible, and then some; an approach not unlike that seen in the demo scene (the C64 and Amiga scenes in particular) where the aim is to push your hardware of choice to it's limits in various imaginative and inventive ways. So, to developers with that particular mindset (they are highly prized in the game industry for obvious reasons), the Pandora may seem ridicilously overpowered and therefore fairly uninspiring to work with (since it's less of a challenge because you don't have to pay as much attention to optimising your code properly).

In all fairness, a developer with this mindset that does develop for the Pandora will be able to achieve totally amazing things on the platform.

On the one hand, yes, it will be easier to get ports of games and emulators to run at acceptable speeds. I will grant you that there are probably those who consider this less of a challenge, but the challenge of good coding doesn't end when the program runs. As stated by Squidge, there is plenty of sport to be had in getting the program to run well:

It'll be easier to port PC emus to, sure, but I think the challenge now will still be along the lines of using the least amount of Mhz for a particular emu. Besides, optimising is fun!

The point is that Pandora will present the option of quick and dirty programming for those who just want to get something to function. Those who prefer to agonize over squeezing the most from every clock cycle have that option as well. A more powerful, feature-packed system leaves that option open to the people who are actually doing the work.

 

[dodgyville]

But ... and I find this hard to describe ... I don't think pandora provides it's own "platform experience". Instead, it provides a dozen platform experiences for other systems.

I'm not sure how this can possibly be a bad thing. This is a device that is, at the very least, partially geared toward emulation. Providing a more realistic "platform experience" for more systems is pretty much the end goal of a device like that. Granted, you may not personally be a huge fan of emulation, but many users are. Emulation has been a large part of development for the GP32 and GP2X, and Pandora is obviously a device that is being designed with emulation in mind. And your complaint is that it is too much like the machines that it is trying to emulate? That doesn't make sense.


It's not a complaint. It's an observation that the device is substantially different from the gp2x in that instead of being primarily a handheld game console that also does emulation, pandora is primarily a device for emulation, and a game device second. It's a fine machine and I think the current design has a bigger market than a gp2x++.

I want pandora to be a success. The gp2x was a success. Part of that success was that the gp2x combined the open-source independent developer scene with the emulation scene. It had linux community street cred. That's a valuable commodity to have. Not only that, a few commercial games do drive sales of a console. I think vektar and payback really legitimised the gp2x as a "real" hand-held game devices.

Here are my suggestions to the makers of pandora:
- have a few exclusive games ready at launch
- an "official" shop for games that is the default homepage for the pandora machine (like the wii shop)
- a very loose "game developer network" to push/advertise finished games to users (only a fraction of them read the gp32x.de forum) and promote professionalism and commercialisation of some of the better programmers. Something almost like the Official Nintendo Seal of Quality program.

When the GP32 came out, one of the 1st things everybody asked was "Can we add a keyboard to it?" When the GP2X was released everybody said "It uses SD cards? Will it work with SDIO WiFi cards? Can we use the USB port to add storage or keyboards or analog controls?"

I never asked for of those things! So there's at least one person not part of "everybody". Although I am glad to see wifi in the new version.

Now we have a bunch of guys that listened to those requests, and are working on a device that has all the stuff we wished the previous generations had. They added all the bells and whistles that people have been trying to tack on to the outside of the GP32/GP2X for the last 4 years.
So now everybody asks "Does it have to do so much stuff? Why can't you make it simpler?"

A lot of the bells and whistles are only useful for emulation (four directional pads?) - sometimes simpler is necessary for a consistent platform.

Sheesh.

As to the poster's original statement, I don't quite understand how having multiple options for input and control could hurt independent and commercial game developers. How exactly does having more power and more options make the device less desirable to developers? I agree that it is better suited to emulating more classic systems than the GP32/GP2X, but I don't see why emulating prowess and homebrew prowess need to be mutually exclusive.

I'm happy the console is more powerful (no need to put words in my mouth), my point is (and it's not a complaint) that I think pandora sacrifices it's own platform in favour of being good at emulation. That's probably the correct commercial decision to make, but it means the makers of pandora need to work a bit harder than gph if they want it to be a gaming platform in its own right. Maybe emulating prowess and game development are mutually exclusive. I dunno.

The gp2x pitch to me was "like the PSP, but running linux". Gold!

 

[Mr B]

When the GP32 came out, one of the 1st things everybody asked was "Can we add a keyboard to it?" When the GP2X was released everybody said "It uses SD cards? Will it work with SDIO WiFi cards? Can we use the USB port to add storage or keyboards or analog controls?"
I think your making my point extremly well. Users asking can WE, not "Why wasn't this on the brick?"
As dodgyville says, sometimes less IS more. I would prefer if this thing had a more gamer friendly design, lets face it, most gamers wont use the keyboard, much, or at all, and for what they will use it, they could tie the buttons to the keys they need. My favorite, a pull-up button, and a onscreen keyboard, along with a must have USB support for a generic keyboard would be smaller, more portable, would be easy to "stand on end" to emulate those games that need a high, and narrow screen, and perhaps most important, cheaper to make, and sell. cheaper means more sales, i have no doubt that such a breed would sell in higher numbers then the currently available design. However, we have been promised a updated set of renders, possibly even a vid with a real shell of the latest (and final?) design. Until that is here, i think pretty much all that can be said is said. I hope they go ahead with the design they got, and then make a second edition, with the same hardware spec, and more "in my taste" later. They would have to make some creative drivers to make the onscreen keyboard seam like the real deal for any software, but aside from that, anything developed for the one, should run on the other, without any issues.
B!

 

[Chip]

But ... and I find this hard to describe ... I don't think pandora provides it's own "platform experience". Instead, it provides a dozen platform experiences for other systems.

I'm not sure how this can possibly be a bad thing. This is a device that is, at the very least, partially geared toward emulation. Providing a more realistic "platform experience" for more systems is pretty much the end goal of a device like that. Granted, you may not personally be a huge fan of emulation, but many users are. Emulation has been a large part of development for the GP32 and GP2X, and Pandora is obviously a device that is being designed with emulation in mind. And your complaint is that it is too much like the machines that it is trying to emulate? That doesn't make sense.


It's not a complaint. It's an observation that the device is substantially different from the gp2x in that instead of being primarily a handheld game console that also does emulation, pandora is primarily a device for emulation, and a game device second. It's a fine machine and I think the current design has a bigger market than a gp2x++.



The GP2X was primarily an open gaming platform. Its inherent limitations meant that it could only be used for emulation of certain older systems, and homebrew games of a certain type. You seem to feel that it was "Primarily a handheld game console that also does emulation", and that may have been how you chose to use it, but it was really just an open platform. The nice thing about an open platform is that they can be anything you want them to be, within the limits of the platform. Pandora has fewer limits.

A lot of the bells and whistles are only useful for emulation (four directional pads?) - sometimes simpler is necessary for a consistent platform.

Do you really feel that having more options is of no use to software developers? OK, so it is unlikely that anybody will come up with a game that needs ALL of the included controls at once, but that each control interface (keyboard included) will end up being utilized in a game that could not exist without it is a certainty.
Just because six buttons and a D-pad was good enough for the GP2X, doesn't mean that's all anybody should ever need.

I'm happy the console is more powerful (no need to put words in my mouth), my point is (and it's not a complaint) that I think pandora sacrifices it's own platform in favour of being good at emulation. That's probably the correct commercial decision to make, but it means the makers of pandora need to work a bit harder than gph if they want it to be a gaming platform in its own right. Maybe emulating prowess and game development are mutually exclusive. I dunno.

I'm still not understanding your point. As a platform, Pandora has more options and abilities than anything save a full desktop computer. What on earth do you mean by "Sacrifices it's own platform in favour of being good at emulation."? Are you implying that it's not original enough? That it doesn't stand out? That it's not quirky?

I also can not understand how you think the hardware developers need to work harder to make it a gaming platform. All they have to do is provide working hardware. The community here will make it a gaming platform, just like they did with the GP32 and GP2X. Considering the added power and flexibility of Pandora, it will probably be somewhat easier this time around.

When the GP32 came out, one of the 1st things everybody asked was "Can we add a keyboard to it?" When the GP2X was released everybody said "It uses SD cards? Will it work with SDIO WiFi cards? Can we use the USB port to add storage or keyboards or analog controls?"

I think your making my point extremly well. Users asking can WE, not "Why wasn't this on the brick?"
As dodgyville says, sometimes less IS more. I would prefer if this thing had a more gamer friendly design, lets face it, most gamers wont use the keyboard, much, or at all, and for what they will use it, they could tie the buttons to the keys they need. My favorite, a pull-up button, and a onscreen keyboard, along with a must have USB support for a generic keyboard would be smaller, more portable, would be easy to "stand on end" to emulate those games that need a high, and narrow screen, and perhaps most important, cheaper to make, and sell. cheaper means more sales, i have no doubt that such a breed would sell in higher numbers then the currently available design. However, we have been promised a updated set of renders, possibly even a vid with a real shell of the latest (and final?) design. Until that is here, i think pretty much all that can be said is said. I hope they go ahead with the design they got, and then make a second edition, with the same hardware spec, and more "in my taste" later. They would have to make some creative drivers to make the onscreen keyboard seam like the real deal for any software, but aside from that, anything developed for the one, should run on the other, without any issues.
B!


I think you're making a huge (and incorrect) assumption based on your personal desires and perceptions. A full keyboard is incredibly useful, and I think you'll end up using it more than you think. Between internet applications, classic computer emulation and chat features, an actual keyboard is what makes this more than just another handheld. Heck, it is entirely possible to write apps for the device ON the device

And before you say "But I don't want all that other stuff", I would like to point out that nobody is forcing you to use it. If all you want is 6 buttons and a d-pad, then you have the option to ignore the other control features. Those who want to do more can, and those who don't can choose not to.

 

[quartercast]

It's not a complaint. It's an observation that the device is substantially different from the gp2x in that instead of being primarily a handheld game console that also does emulation, pandora is primarily a device for emulation, and a game device second. It's a fine machine and I think the current design has a bigger market than a gp2x++.

As far as I know, the gp2x is marketed as a handheld media player. Do you really think the click-stick (F100) and "d-pad" (F200) are suitable for serious gaming? I think not.

A lot of the bells and whistles are only useful for emulation (four directional pads?) - sometimes simpler is necessary for a consistent platform.

This is the crux of your argument, but it appears to be misguided. By four directional pads, do you mean 1 d-pad, 2 analog nubs and 1 touchscreen (there's a difference)? Minus the touchscreen, this is a standard control set for commercial console gaming (have a look at your Xbox, playstation and gamecube controllers). Therefore, one could equally argue that including such controls into a handheld would make it easier for commercial developers to port current games to the Pandora. Frankly I don't see how your argument holds water.

 

[Sphinxter]

Technically, Pandora is a very impressive machine. However, I feel it is a step backwards from the gp2x in gaming "ethos".

Consider that the gp2x was an attempt at an open-source gaming system. It was a natural platform for independent game developers to get started. Sadly I think pandora is more of an attempt at an open-source *emulation* system (as evidenced by all the input methods). Yes there will be hobby games for it, but I feel there will be few *original* commercial games for it all, which is a pity.

I think it will do well, but it is a lot different to the gp2x. Maybe it's the New Year brandy talking.

As opposed to pissing and moaning about the gp2x and what it can't do you want to piss and moan about the pandora and that it can do too much? Time to 86 your ass and call for a cab. Hardware always exceeds software at first, software then grows to fill all available space and then some completing the circle of life. Heck I'm already writing a game for it and thinking about all the ones that couldn't be done for lack of controls and how to cope with the different aspect ratio.

 

[pupnik]

This game should be fun...

 

[javaJake]

/me is knocked to the ground by a mega-ultra-super ginormous whopper of an tag. Thankfully, he revives quickly.

;)

[B]Edit:[/B] rofl... now that I look at the image you can see little strands of stuff coming off of the floor... such attention to detail!

 

[icurafu]

MMORPG sweetness.

There are about half a dozen good free MMORPGs that will run great on the Pandora. Daimonin is one of them.

That picture makes me want to get a N810 now.

 

[whiskthecat]

We could have servers specifically for the gp32x community.

 

[icurafu]

How about the Pandora Guild. Raid those dirty N810 users ftw.

 

[dabomb3627]

whosoever ports the quake three engine and a good amount of its mods (especially tremulous!) will get half my paycheck in donations from me every two weeks for the next half year (i can do this because I'm a minor with no living expenses) looking at about 60$ a month (if that can be considered helpful)

 

[atomicthumbs]

whosoever ports the quake three engine and a good amount of its mods (especially tremulous!) will get half my paycheck in donations from me every two weeks for the next half year (i can do this because I'm a minor with no living expenses) looking at about 60$ a month (if that can be considered helpful)

save it for me! all I need to do is to learn to program.

 

[Peter R]

whosoever ports the quake three engine and a good amount of its mods (especially tremulous!) will get half my paycheck in donations from me every two weeks for the next half year (i can do this because I'm a minor with no living expenses) looking at about 60$ a month (if that can be considered helpful)

save it for me! all I need to do is to learn to program.

:rolleyes:

 

[pupnik]

MMORPG sweetness.

There are about half a dozen good free MMORPGs that will run great on the Pandora. Daimonin is one of them.

That picture makes me want to get a N810 now.

Just got this running. Should be a treat on Pandora. But ... gemrb still needs work. Please find a good programmer and chain them to a desk in a basement to help finish-up gemrb.

And this game really benefits from the keyboard... so stuff this in your pipe and smokeit, all you 'we don't want a keyboard' crackheads.

 

[icurafu]

omg omg. How well does it work on the N810?

It seems ironic really (in the point of view of Baulder's gate). N810 adds a keyboard but replaces the SD with microSD.

 

[pupnik]

omg omg. How well does it work on the N810?

It seems ironic really (in the point of view of Baulder's gate). N810 adds a keyboard but replaces the SD with microSD.

Yeah, BG2 - SOA needs about 2.3GB. N810 uses miniSD (or microSD+adapter). I didn't get a chance to play much yet. There are UI annoyances I need to figure out, bugs to be fixed... But animation speeds are just fine, load times (with debug output) are also fine. No performance issues at all. And damn those Bioware guys did a fine job with the graphics. They look absolutely gorgeous at 220dpi.

(edit) and *no*, i'm not trying to make anyone want a Nokia tablet. Just showing off some things that will be awesome on Pandora.

 

[Tobriand]

Wow. I'd not considered the infinity engine games as possibilities. I would absolutely adore Torment on the move - especially since, unlike on a PC, on a small sceen it won't hurt my eyes (the graphics are amazing for the time, but definitely not great when blown up on a modern LCD).