If a choice is possible in the wizard, which desktop environment(s) the Pyra OS should ship ?

[TrashyMG]

I have no Pandora, so I don't know how Minimenu works. But on screenshots it looks a lot like lxlauncher, which is available as a Debian package.

It not based on lxlauncher, it was written from scratch by Skeezix.
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That's all a matter of the kernel config, right? (I've never really been into building custom kernels.) So it should all come with the kernel.
If there are any config files needed, I'd expect to find them all in a Debian package or a collection thereof.

A lot of the Pyra Hardware config is done in the Device Tree Binary file (.dtb), not in the kernel config. This file is provided in the kernel package aTc bundles. The source for this binary is available in the kernel sources.
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I believe the ultimate goal should be, that every single piece of the base system should be manageable by the Debian packaging system. I know that especially in the beginning that won't work for the kernel, but I think even this should be at least a long-term goal, which is why I asked for any mainlining plans.

Actually that is how it is currently, upgrading the kernel is just an apt-get install away. Booting a different kernel is just a matter of selecting a different one from default in a u-boot menu. Although currently it's only done via a serial terminal, a graphical menu can be done.

 

[levi]

Minimenu is built around the PND system that is being replaced, I suppose if someone wanted to spend the time to rewrite it for the DBP system. However it may be easier to make something from scratch. Also the Pandora had to mainly deal with most of the applications being in PND form, it's not quite the case on the Pyra with it's large internal storage.

Very true. I would be generally in favour of a minimenu like environment though - a number of people seem to like it. And it's not just a launcher for PNDs - anything with a .desktop file is launchable through minimenu, so that approach should work in a dbp+deb environment too.

Perhaps something icon based a la modern phone-based menu screen, perhaps using the Panorama software developed for the Pandora might be even more friendly to people who didn't grow up with an Amiga at some point in their history though.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Not sure as Iv'e not tried any of the options listed but mini-menu was a little basic and quite buggy back when i had a Pandora. No sense in including it as is I think.

 

[Yoyobuae]

XFCE is my preference. Configuring it with "Hide frame of windows when maximized" and "Hide title of windows when maximized" makes it very space efficient. I run maximized windows nearly 99% of the time in my work PC and don't really miss window title buttons or menu bars. The panel is pretty minimal in newer versions too (only 25 pixels thick) and there's auto-hide feature.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

XFCE is my preference. Configuring it with "Hide frame of windows when maximized" and "Hide title of windows when maximized" makes it very space efficient. I run maximized windows nearly 99% of the time in my work PC and don't really miss window title buttons or menu bars. The panel is pretty minimal in newer versions too (only 25 pixels thick) and there's auto-hide feature.

How do you unmaximize things?

 

[edgex004]

With a bit more work/features, Pandafe is super awesome too. I'd love some kind of unholy mix between Pandafe and Minimenu.

 

[ekianjo]

Cinnamon is missing.

 

[thatgui]

Did not vote, but imho the options (if there is someone willing to do such a thing) should be:

• none
  As there are always some purists, why not appeal to them if it basically means "do nothing" = "no brainer"?
• xfce / Openbox
  Both aren't really my thing, but they seem to be popular. I would lean towards xfce as it provides a resemblance to windows (aka the holy "Startmenu") thus common ground for people coming from the Windows world.
  
• Gnome 3 (default)
  It may be bloated (or not I don't know, but heck, the Pyra will sport 4GB of RAM), but it provides a more modern approach on UI design: the "icons-in-columns" design of the starter, the "one application" approach and the rather large UI elements while still emphasizing on keyboard shortcuts would suit the Pyras multiple input sources*. Also the set of applications that are now considered to be somewhat of a "standard" on mobile devices like clock, calendar, weather, maps,etc. should make it more appealing. I know that such applications exists it other (and probably better) form already, but only as "singular items", while the Gnome applications all adhere to the same usage paradigms.

I don't see any reason why we should consider a "MiniMenu" type launcher at this point. Only because someone said that he heard his older cousins, little brothers, ex-wife said she heard some people talk about it, in a bar is Fresno, does not mean it will (ever) exist. If someone comes up with that, awesome (I guess), but we can still include it later on.

Probably obvious:we should also include a small description for every option, telling the user what he can expect (god or bad) if he makes that certain choice

* I feel "dirty" now: most of this doesn't really work on a Desktop system (especially if its a multi monitor setup) and you really want to get things done, so I am currently trying to get used to KDE, but its hard for me

 

[Silent-Hunter]

Personally I think XFCE should be default purely because it was on the Pandora and the majority of Pyra customers probably had one. Everything can be in the same places.

 

[sulu]

I would be generally in favour of a minimenu like environment though - a number of people seem to like it. And it's not just a launcher for PNDs - anything with a .desktop file is launchable through minimenu, so that approach should work in a dbp+deb environment too.

I think lxlauncher can do that.

XFCE is my preference. Configuring it with "Hide frame of windows when maximized" and "Hide title of windows when maximized" makes it very space efficient. I run maximized windows nearly 99% of the time in my work PC and don't really miss window title buttons or menu bars. The panel is pretty minimal in newer versions too (only 25 pixels thick) and there's auto-hide feature.

Actually you can make it even more space efficient. On 16:9 screens I feel that horizontal space is wasted while vertical space is at a premium. So I put two panels on the sides. One is for a start menu, some quickstarters, a clock and some other widgets. The other one houses a task bar. It feels a little strange at first to have a vertical task bar with rotated text, but I got used to it quite quickly.
This way you can use the entire height of the screen for your windows.

How do you unmaximize things?

Either via keyboard combinations, or, in my setup I put starters in the panel that call wcmtrl commands to (un)maximize, minimize and close windows. If you put them in the corner of the screen it feels just like regular window decoration buttons.
There's also an xfce4-panel plugin that puts those buttons in a panel. [1] So you don't have to fiddle with custom-made starters and it looks a little nicer. It's not in the official debian repo though and afaik there's no arm package of it. So it would have to be compiled for the Pyra's system.


[1] http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/panel-plugins/xfce4-windowck-plugin

 

[Bosbeetle]

One of my main reasons to choose a windows manager is the ability to find stuff... It's one of the reasons I dislike android, I use it just once in a while (on my mom's tablet, at 73 she got used to it ) but everything just seems so hidden... layered in tons of menu's that get pulled from nowhere or swizzled around, it's almost makes me dizzy. That said as a pandora user never having seen xcfe before I could find everything I wanted almost emidiatly so that's why I voted for xcfe.

 

[sulu]

What's the point of having two threads? [1] I don't get the difference.

[1] https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/th...op-environment-the-pyra-os-should-have.78115/

 

[Klumpen]

What's the point of having two threads? [1] I don't get the difference.

[1] https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/th...op-environment-the-pyra-os-should-have.78115/

More polls?

Maybe it's some experiment whether the same poll on the same board at the same time leads to different results?
Mysterious indeed.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I made two poll because the questions asked are slightly different.
-One for the wizard asking, to know which DE to include in the rootfs. E.g. KDE takes a lot of space, why include it if a minority of ppl choose it.
-The second for a default choice if the wizard doesn't ask.

Unfortunately, the number of choices within each poll is limited.

 

[sulu]

-One for the wizard asking, to know which DE to include in the rootfs. E.g. KDE takes a lot of space, why include it if a minority of ppl choose it.

Wait!
You not only want to ship the infrastructure in the rootfs to run the wizzard (which would then download the desktop or load it from some USB drive/SD card), but you also want to include the desktop itself in it?

Please tell me I'm getting that totally wrong!

 

[Linux-SWAT]

The wizard is a shell script included in the rootfs. Exactly like Zaxxon.

 

[sulu]

But you wrote:

[..] which DE to include in the rootfs. [..]

To me that sounds like you want to store the packages needed to install the desktop in the rootfs.
Depending on which desktop you want to include, that would increase the size of the image by a few 100MB or even 1GB.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Well, the rootfs is itself compressed.

 

[sulu]

Debian packages are already compressed, so it makes no sense to compress them again.

Also, everybody who does not want to use whatever desktop is included in the image will still have to download the whole archive and may later have to remove the unwanted packages. Even people who want that particular desktop will likely have no use for the packages shipped in the image, because due to security updates they will tend to be outdated.

So I'd strongly recommend to have a wizard that works similar to Debian's net installer, which will automatically keep the image small and the software up-to-date. Puling in all the Pyra-specific changes should be easily doable via some meta-package construction similar to Debian's "pure blends". [1]


[1] https://www.debian.org/blends/

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Debian packages are already compressed, so it makes no sense to compress them again.
Also, everybody who does not want to use whatever desktop is included in the image will still have to download the whole archive and may later have to remove the unwanted packages. Even people who want that particular desktop will likely have no use for the packages shipped in the image, because due to security updates they will tend to be outdated.

It's exactly why I made the two polls.