iCP2: They're throwing in the towel.
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Wrath Of Khan
Soul soother...
Right then its time for the smurfs theme tune
https://www.youtube.com/embed/RqbpzEHuO2g?feature=oembed
https://www.youtube.com/embed/RqbpzEHuO2g?feature=oembed
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Okay, check your inbox.
I admit I've probably been too passionate about this. I wrestled a lot with posting what I did when I did, and I'm sorry if I misintepreted you and overreacted.
This is the particular part I was responding to:
I thought that what you were saying is this: "iCP2 was Link's scam and he's just going to go scam other people with these other ventures." From what you're saying now, it sounds like it was instead "Link needs to deal with his responsibilities with iCP2 before he deals with any other business ventures." That's a much less incendiary statement. But given the circumstances, I don't agree with that either. I don't think this has anything to do with his other business ventures, and I don't think he's going to run into major problems so long as he avoids Craig. And I don't like that you're warning ED to be careful with Link because ED has had a business relationship with him for a long time and he's a lot better informed than you are about how to approach that business relationship in the future. You have an underlying message that Link is going to be irresponsible with whatever he deals with when it comes to other people's money and I don't agree with that. It's possible he did mismanage the iCP2 money but there's no evidence, and I don't think it's fair to assume the worst just because he isn't going into detail and defending himself, or because he's ignoring e-mails about it (which are probably overwhelming at this point)
Regardless of the legal technicalities of it I think Craig should be responsible for any money that was given to him under good faith, that Link should not responsible for anything more than disbursing funds. And I also don't think Link should be responsible for delivering any more information than he has. If I were in his situation I'd do more than he is to try to calm people down, but I don't really know what things are like for him and I wouldn't make demands like that. If you guys were just going after Craig I wouldn't even be saying anything, much less offering to give anyone money. But that's not what's happening.
Personally, I barely even know Link, I talked to him maybe once. I don't feel qualified at all to say anything about what kind of person I think he is, so this really has nothing to do with that.
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
ED isn't taking Craig to court because Craig doesn't owe ED anything, except maybe payment for 70 1GHz Pandoras or something like that.
When it comes to the Pandoras Craig owes his customers ED has nothing to do with it. When it comes
This isn't a matter of whether or not he should care, you simply can't sue someone without standing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_%28law%29 It'll get thrown out of court.
And by the way, when it comes to damaging Pyra's public image I think this sort of FUD spread by you and a few other haters like Chad W Smith hurts far more than anything ED doesn't do. If you few very vocal people treated this with the slightest bit of rationality and objectivity ED wouldn't have a problem.
You just want to make people pay, you need someone to take your anger upfront, apparently now that person is ED. You demand he deals with things that aren't his problem, like he doesn't have enough to keep him busy and hasn't done enough for people that he didn't have to do. I don't even get how someone could be this lacking in compassion and detached from actual circumstances.
Morn
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Let's say 2499 'cause I don't feel screwed by Link. Sure more insightful updates would be appreciated. You can often get more info from people like ED than Link himself, but still - I knew who Craig is when I decided I would risk my money dealing with him and I would done it regardless of the person standing directly behind the LLC. Heck, at the beginning I didn't even know than Link was the owner of Product 3.
I wish that is true, but AFAIK Open Pandora Ltd. still owes ED most of the original Pandoras that it never delivered.
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I was one of the people which ordered from Craig.
And also one of the 500 people which fell for the "upgrade".
When that also fell thru I "re-upgraded" to ED's shop.
Finally got my Pandora and have been happily using for a year now.
I took a risk and it bit me (rather hard -_- ). But I don't hold a grudge against Craig. Forgive and forget.
Of course, if Craig ever shows up with another "project" I would strongly advice everyone to stay clear off. Bad intentions or not, the result will likely not be good.
darkborn
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ROFL :lol:
FUD is that $400K of 2500 people are missing? And hush up bad facts is ok? What's wrong with you?
"few other haters like Chad W Smith" ???? WTF ??? What's that construction, who is this, your lover? Victims are now "haters"??? Hate what? Great logic.
And "rational" is for ED to forget payment for 70 Pandoras, and for other thousands of scammed customers to hush up things that happened?
What are you talking about? What anger?
I want honesty. I am talking about fraud from person that his ex-partners are protecting. Why they don't want to report it to authorities? They have proves that Craig did not paid / refund / delivered what he was obligated to. At least 4 times. He did it with Pandora preorders, Pandora upgraders, iCP2 funders and with ED. Link & ED have lists of scammed people, not me or any of us 2500.
I am listening stupid excuses for Craig's bad behaviour for years.
And now we should all forget about it, giving that person chance to make frauds again and again? Or we "and our poor $70" should warn the authorities, everybody for himself, because
"there is a guy who scams people for years, but his partners are innocent and they think that he cannot be prosecuted so I have to do this alone" (each one of us)?
How many victims should be in the future because of hushing up bad things? What if something goes wrong with Pyra, some other Craig? We should all pretend that it was not happening (again)?
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WizardStan
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darkborn
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Because, for me there is no difference between victims for iCP2 and victims for Pandora. Same person made same pattern twice, at least twice (as far as I know). ED's name was at ks iCP2 page, it was deleted after ED insisted on it. But we knew here that he will help Link and Craig, "to help solve Pandora mess". Nothing was solved. Mess became bigger.
Now what? Pretend that it was not happened?
I believe that ED & Link did not have bad intentions, but that does not change a thing. If they don't want to report Craig to authorities (and this becomes international, semi-organized crime), I have not pity for Link or ED.
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Craig owes his customers Pandoras, he doesn't owe ED any. ED has already delivered Pandoras to all of his customers.
darkborn has totally lost his mind again, there isn't much point trying to talk about facts about who is actually involved with what... Basically any discussion about Link or even ED is somehow about whatever Craig has done.
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Yes, but originally, Craig would've needed to send me all Pandoras for my customers.
There was a (sadly unwritten) deal:
I pay for all the LCDs and will get the Pandoras for my customers.
I delivered the LCDs, but never got all the Pandoras.
So basically, yes, he would owe me.
However, this would be hard to prove legally, as nothing has been written down back then (I was stupid, yes, I have to admit it, but I learnt from that).
Instead I decided to make the deal with Craig that I have all rights I need to continue to produce the Pandora and start from zero there with my own investors.
I think that was a good thing, as there would've been no way that Craig could've ever delivered all remaining units to me.
I've posted more than once here on the boards (before Kickstarter was even started) that I will NOT be part of the team.
I will ONLY offer to Craig to handle the production with GC for free.
When Kickstarter went Live (I haven't seen the page before that as well), I saw that Craig put my name in there and had it removed as soon as I found that out.
It was used without my permission, probably because he thought people like me and it would be easier to get backers from the community.
He could've put your name on there as well without your permission. Or Barack Obama.
Would you or he be liable for that?
Nope.
However, legally, even if I kept my name there I wouldn't be liable.
I never was part of the company, I was external. And externals aren't responsible if the company that hires them goes bust (well, if it was because of my company, he could take legal action against it. You couldn't though).
On the Pyra Team website there are also various people and companies (like notaz, Global Components, etc.).
But the company is mine, so I am the one legally responsible for it, not anyone from the team members.
Still, I wanted to have my name removed there as I said from the very beginning that I will not be part of the team but only will help setup production at GC.
(Basically, all I did was translate between them)
I can't report anything, as I have no legal bindings with Craig or Link.
I did translate between GC (German company) and Link / Craig (English speaking guys) and sent the payments to GC.
I didn't even want to deal with the money - I wanted that iControlPad Ltd. pays the bills directly. But I suddenly had the money on my account - it was simply an accident (Link sent it without asking). Sending it back would've been stupid - 5000 EUR lost due to USD/EUR/USD conversions didn't make sense.
So I checked with my tax counsellor and it was no problem. The money was simply lying there, but I didn't own it (I didn't send any invoices as well).
I still don't own it, but have the remaining money still lying on my account.
So yes, I can assure you that I kept myself totally out of the iCP2 project and only offered myself as free translator between GC and Craig.
Mentioning me on the kickstarter page was completely without me even knowing and without me having given permission.
I'm not sure what you mean with the "Pandora mess" with Link, Craig and me...
Link never had anything to do with the Pandora mess, he was just helping out after production moved to Germany.
He wasn't even mentioned anywhere before that.
And my mess is pretty much cleared up.
I have no remaining orders for over a year now, fulfilled everything that was discussed with Craig according to my business plan.
It's not my fault that Craig suddenly has 600 more customers than he told me before.
The mess is with OpenPandora Ltd. not with my company.
I'm just trying to help the victims of his mess.
Whatever you mean with that.
Please find one single post from me where I told that I will be part of the iCP2 team.
I am sure I can find various where I mentioned I WILL NOT be part of the team, even with explainations why.
That's something you have to ask Link, not me, as I don't have ANY contract or legal bindings with iControlPad Ltd.
I can imagine why though - legal action into a foreign country is not that easy and costs quite a bit of money.
You have to pay the lawyers - and unless there's enough money from iControlPad Ltd. to get, you even have to pay them if you win the process.
I know there's nothing left with OpenPandora Ltd., and I don't think there's much to grab from Craig either, so it doesn't make sense for me to take legal action against him.
It could cost me quite a bit of money, money I need for Pyra development.
Once again: If you take legal action against Link, then HE has the problem with that.
Craig will only be touched if Link takes legal action against him, and I don't know whether he will do that or if it even makes sense (lenghty, expensive process).
And yes, as I never had anything to do with the iCP2 legally, I am untouchable.
What would you touch me for?
That I translated for free between GC and Craig?
Link can request the money that belongs to the iCP2 project from me anytime, and I'd send it to him. The money doesn't belong to me or my company.
I can also tell GC to send Link the parts if he requests that from me.
But there's nothing to take legal action against me. What for?
True, it couldn't have been done without Link involved.
That doesn't automatically mean it's Links fault though.
It could happen to you as well:
If a friend asks you to exchange money (i.e. 2x 50 USD bills for 1x 100 USD bill) for him and later at a shop you will be accused it's false money.
Are you liable for that?
Yes.
Is it your fault?
No. You didn't know that, you simply wanted to help your friend.
Still, you're liable because you tried to pay with it.
It's the same with Link:
He wanted to help and might be liable (no idea, don't know the laws in US that well), but it was not directly his fault.
Mentioned above, was done without my permission and removed because of that.
And if they used your name without permission there, you would've helped them as well?
Guess why I told them to remove it as soon as I found out?
Because of that reason.
You're talking about taking legal action quite a few times.
Is there a reason you didn't take legal action against OpenPandora Ltd. in that case?
You ordered from them, they're liable, not me, not my company, it's a deal between you and them.
So start your legal action against them instead of complaining that no one takes legal action.
No one can do that except yourself.
All customers from OpenPandora Ltd.
My customers got all their Pandoras, and I even delivered the Pandora to many of Craigs customers, even though I was not liable for them.
You need to talk / take legal action against the company where you ordered, not complain to a different one.
Yes, and they can all take legal action against Link if they like.
But you can't do that for them and you can't speak for them.
You can suggest it that they'll do that, but you can't force them.
Yes, and 95% of those know the difference between me and Craig and would tell everyone I'm reliable.
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notaz
Certified Guru
As we are back to Craig fights, I wonder what's the status of openpandora Ltd. strikeoff. Last news was that it was delayed until March.
Wrath Of Khan
Soul soother...
^^^^Oh gosh. That can of worms...
Im curious myself...
Im curious myself...
ZXDunny
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And what exactly are you actually doing about this? Aside from shouting about it on a forum, I mean. What actual action are you taking to resolve this?
D.
Wally
I am a banana!
Don't you people have better things to do than argue about stupid shit?
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna do it ;p
darkborn
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@EvilDragon,
But problem is that
1) People here (or anywhere publicly) did not know that then,
2) Many of them still defended Craig then (as some of them are doing it right now), because of lack of information.
Regardless, it is proof that you have had back then reasonable suspicion that Craig is doing dishonest acts.
Problem is, 2168 people did not know that then. But you did.
Rhetorically speaking, when you have reasonable suspicion that somebody is planning dishonest acts, or you have same (bad) experience with same person,
you are doing - what? ...
And after you find out that:
Ok, it is up to your conscience to be quiet about it ("business as usual"), but what I do not understand is that you are actively discouraging people to take some action against Craig, or Link in this case:
Cop ask Link: "where is the stolen money?"
Link: "I gave it to Craig! Here is proof!"
Cop: "I don't care, you're guilty."
Link: "But he did it more then once!"
Cop: "I don't care, you're guilty." ??? Or it should be: "Why didn't you report it?"
You and Link should know that it's false money. Because he already did Pandora mess, and you were already hurt by his acts.
Ok, you were trustful (or stupid as you said)
And now we are going to point.
Those "accidents", like your name without your permission, money got by accident, 600 customers that "suddenly appears" are not normal business circumstances.
It is not normal that thousands of people got left of thousands of dollars.
We are talking here about international fraud, and you my friends are involved here, want it or not. You don't have to be guilty, but it depends of your future actions.
Same actors are here, regardless are they victims or scammers. Regardless of actual company that same CEO is playing. Ithic.com sold Pandoras same as GP2X Shop, MWeston did his parts, and of course Craig with his own plenty of companies. iCP2 is same story as Pandora, if we're talking about fraud.
I was consulting some expert advisors and they convinced me that Interpol should be involved. Question is: should I proceed with it? Would you actively help me? I do need few witnesses that are ready to cooperate with authorities (ideally those that ordered Pandora and iCP2 both, preferred countries are UK, US, Germany). Crowdfunding scams are increasing and police is interested to get control over it.
If you think that it is not a good idea, please argue that privately and I will respect it if I could.
Yes, you were hurt and back then you should know who you deal with.
But problem is that
1) People here (or anywhere publicly) did not know that then,
2) Many of them still defended Craig then (as some of them are doing it right now), because of lack of information.
Regardless, it is proof that you have had back then reasonable suspicion that Craig is doing dishonest acts.
Now you realize that he made it in purpose. For same reason that he "used" Link's Project 3 LLC for covering dishonest intentions. He could arrange it by contract that will guarantee iControlPad Ltd. is responsible if things going wrong. He could made it publicly at ks. Obviously he has a reasons why he did not doing it.
Problem is, 2168 people did not know that then. But you did.
Rhetorically speaking, when you have reasonable suspicion that somebody is planning dishonest acts, or you have same (bad) experience with same person,
you are doing - what? ...
And after you find out that:
?????
Ok, it is up to your conscience to be quiet about it ("business as usual"), but what I do not understand is that you are actively discouraging people to take some action against Craig, or Link in this case:
Basicaly, what you say is that:
Cop ask Link: "where is the stolen money?"
Link: "I gave it to Craig! Here is proof!"
Cop: "I don't care, you're guilty."
Link: "But he did it more then once!"
Cop: "I don't care, you're guilty." ??? Or it should be: "Why didn't you report it?"
I agree with you. But there is a big difference:
You and Link should know that it's false money. Because he already did Pandora mess, and you were already hurt by his acts.
Ok, you were trustful (or stupid as you said)
And now we are going to point.
For any normal country it will look like money laundry, at least. You were involved, want it or not.
Those "accidents", like your name without your permission, money got by accident, 600 customers that "suddenly appears" are not normal business circumstances.
It is not normal that thousands of people got left of thousands of dollars.
We are talking here about international fraud, and you my friends are involved here, want it or not. You don't have to be guilty, but it depends of your future actions.
Same actors are here, regardless are they victims or scammers. Regardless of actual company that same CEO is playing. Ithic.com sold Pandoras same as GP2X Shop, MWeston did his parts, and of course Craig with his own plenty of companies. iCP2 is same story as Pandora, if we're talking about fraud.
I was consulting some expert advisors and they convinced me that Interpol should be involved. Question is: should I proceed with it? Would you actively help me? I do need few witnesses that are ready to cooperate with authorities (ideally those that ordered Pandora and iCP2 both, preferred countries are UK, US, Germany). Crowdfunding scams are increasing and police is interested to get control over it.
If you think that it is not a good idea, please argue that privately and I will respect it if I could.
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