iCP2: They're throwing in the towel.

[WizardStan]

as some of them are doing it right now

Ok, now I know you're smoking something.

 

[EvilDragon]

 

[darkborn]

Ok, it's enough.
I will post news when I do talks with authorities. If it becomes business mismanagement, so be it.
Personally, I think Craig made you involved both in purpose because it is the safest way for him to share guilt.
How he convinced Link to send you money will remain mystery for now.

I also think that Craig wanted success with Pandora and ICP2, but I am sure that he always had "plan B",

because it is win-win combination for him.
I do not have any proves that Craig stole money or that he spent it all at case prototypes, 3d printers, vodka or other usual business things.

But what I know for sure is that he constantly lies "partners", "friends", customers etc. It is not big task to find out what is his "business" (and social) behavior.
And I'm sure that any financial inspection will find it out instantly just by opening his books.
Does it worth?
I personally don't want him hiding at any other Link or ED ever again - if he is not doing it pro bono.
If he becomes officially stamped as a scammer, it will be much harder for him to "mismanage" / play around other people money.
Oh, btw, I don't buy that he is in bankruptcy. This is exactly what he wants us to think. Mismanaging.


Please, do not think about Interpol as a big threat: it is just because e.g. you do not have obligations / permission to show preorder list public.

But if you're asked for from authorities, I hope you will do it. Same is for Link / KS backers list.

Just one question - was it really Craig:
http://www.b3ta.com/questions/schoolnaughtiness/post1347342




 

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Ok, it's enough.


I will post news when I do talks with authorities. If it becomes business mismanagement, so be it.


Personally, I think Craig made you involved both in purpose because it is the safest way for him to share guilt.


How he convinced Link to send you money will remain mystery for now.


I also think that Craig wanted success with Pandora and ICP2, but I am sure that he always had "plan B",


because it is win-win combination for him.


I do not have any proves that Craig stole money or that he spent it all at case prototypes, 3d printers, vodka or other usual business things.


But what I know for sure is that he constantly lies "partners", "friends", customers etc. It is not big task to find out what is his "business" (and social) behavior.


And I'm sure that any financial inspection will find it out instantly just by opening his books.


Does it worth?


I personally don't want him hiding at any other Link or ED ever again - if he is not doing it pro bono.


If he becomes officially stamped as a scammer, it will be much harder for him to "mismanage" / play around other people money.


Oh, btw, I don't buy that he is in bankruptcy. This is exactly what he wants us to think. Mismanaging.


Please, do not think about Interpol as a big threat: it is just because e.g. you do not have obligations / permission to show preorder list public.


But if you're asked for from authorities, I hope you will do it. Same is for Link / KS backers list.


Just one question - was it really Craig:


http://www.b3ta.com/questions/schoolnaughtiness/post1347342]http://www.b3ta.com/questions/schoolnaughtiness/post1347342


Good lord man, get some perspective and do not waste interpols time. They may have serious, real world matters to deal with.


They will probably laugh and ignore your statements to be honest.


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[rl7298]

I find it irresponsible that Link doesn't have the decency to respond to the attorney general letters he's been receiving. At least address the situation instead of sending it to the circular file.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

^^^Or the common sense to not respond...

 

[Exophase]

ED, there's something really satisfying about reading your thoroughly reasonable arguments, even when given to someone who somehow can't seem to process a word you're saying. I hope that makes it feel like less of a waste.

 

[Morn]

@EvilDragon,

I pay for all the LCDs and will get the Pandoras for my customers. I delivered the LCDs, but never got all the Pandoras. So basically, yes, he would owe me.

...

Instead I decided to make the deal with Craig (...)

I think that was a good thing, as there would've been no way that Craig could've ever delivered all remaining units to me.

 Yes, you were hurt and back then you should know who you deal with.

But problem is that

1) People here (or anywhere publicly) did not know that then,

I'm not sure what do you mean by "then" but if it's when the kikstarter campaign started then I knew. I don't have neither time nor will to look for exact board posts with dates but if memory serves it was discussed at least during the 1 GHz fiasco. I believe many bakers from outside this community didn't know, and even some people from here who weren't following the discussions on the boards carefully at that time might not have known but the case wasn't a secret on no account.

 

[Morn]

As we are back to Craig fights, I wonder what's the status of openpandora Ltd. strikeoff. Last news was that it was delayed until March.

Yeah, I got that on my mind too, but oouldn't find any of the old topics and didn't want to make new or spam here

Don't you people have better things to do than argue about stupid shit?

Well, at least we get some more information, e.g.:- How came ED ended up a middleman with money on his account while he was supposed to be just a translator.

- From whom he got the money for board production: Craig or Link

- which of Craig companies was involved in the production (well, that's from the KS update)

I don't believe any of this make us any closer to resolving the case and refunds but it's still good to know.

Anyway, does anyone know who created this icp2refund@gmail.com mailbox. It could be just my English but it's not clear to me from the update.

 

[EvilDragon]

How he convinced Link to send you money will remain mystery for now.

Nothing mysterious here.

Links job was to divide the money to the different companies which was needed to fulfill the production according to the offers.

Link knew I'll deal with GC, so he thought I should get the money to pay their bills. As Craig also confirmed to him I should get the money needed for GC, he sent it over.

What's so mysterious about it?

 

[rohezal]

Darkborn I would be very careful with words like "fraud", "money laundry" and "scam" when you go to the police and tell them about this site. You could get in trouble for libel, at least for the accusation of ED for money laundry, which is a serious crime.

 

[DrCJBoduma]

ED, there's something really satisfying about reading your thoroughly reasonable arguments, even when given to someone who somehow can't seem to process a word you're saying. I hope that makes it feel like less of a waste.

Exactly how I feel also.

Interesting reading through it all though

 

[Jumpman]

How he convinced Link to send you money will remain mystery for now.

Nothing mysterious here.


Links job was to divide the money to the different companies which was needed to fulfill the production according to the offers.


Link knew I'll deal with GC, so he thought I should get the money to pay their bills. As Craig also confirmed to him I should get the money needed for GC, he sent it over.


What's so mysterious about it?

There is no mystery ED, the only mystery here are in members minds because they need it to be.

This project FAILED, for better or worse, it's OVER! Some of the guys around here are "NUTS", let this die or take legal action. If you don't believe ED, Link or Craig, don't deal with them in the future.

Everything relevant to a refund has been stated, and is being worked on behind the scenes. This is true or false, either way, you'll get a refund some day, or you won't. LIFE GOES ON!

If Link or Craig had no intentions of given refunds, why bother telling us otherwise? What's the endgame?

I don't think I've ever seen people work so hard, for so little. Bad shit happens in life, learn a lesson and move on. If someone here lost money on Pandora preorders and still gave Craig money a second time for ICP2, then you didn't learn your lesson the first time. There is no one to blame but yourself. Some of you guys must have been the kid who was dead set on fitting the square peg through the round hole, IT'S A NO WIN SITUATION, and so is this.

Chris 

 

[_wb_]

Well, not much left to discuss here. Craig messed up, Craig clearly doesn't want to give details about it, the only one who can touch Craig (w.r.t. the iCP2 that is) is Link, but that would be an expensive international lawsuit and it would probably make little sense for Link to do that since most likely there is no money to get at Craig's company, so perhaps he would get some more details of where the money went, but at the expense of a very long delay and considerable legal costs -- meaning that the refunds to the iCP2 backers will also be delayed and diminished.

So we'll probably never know exactly what went wrong, but it makes no sense to blame Link (let alone ED!) for this. There is no scam -- in a scam you collect money, you don't spend it on designs, prototypes and PCBs. It's just Craig's incompetence, nothing more, nothing less.

Craig's problem is that he combines great ambition/vision with poor planning and no notion of safety margins. People like that often end up in important manager positions (in particular in "crisis manager" type of jobs, where they get paid huge amounts of money to restructure a complete company), where they can ruin many companies and the more companies they ruin, the more praise they get and the higher their paycheck. The whole Pandora Ltd / iCP2 story is peanuts compared to the kind of stuff that happens on a daily basis in large companies all over the world (especially multinationals). And it's all legal. It's just how capitalism works. If you want to do something about that, you shouldn't write angry posts on an Internet forum, you shouldn't start lawsuits, but you should fight for a political alternative. And you shouldn't target the small fry entrepreneurs like Craig -- there are way bigger fish to fry, cases where immoral stuff is going on, not just incompetence.

Anyway, I hope that Craig now has or finds a job with less responsibility/impact on others. And I wish Link and ED the very best in all their future Craig-less endeavors.

 

[rl7298]

When I decided to buy a preorder of the ICP2 (yes preorder), I did a general quick Google search of the members. What sold it for me was Ed's involvement. Craig looked like a silly goofy frontman for the project that liked to make Youtube videos and hear himself talk. Mark ran ithic and sold finished products. Out of the two of them, Ed seemed to be the most knowledgeable, so I figured he had the most involvement. I didn't find much on everyone else. I didn't dig enough in the forums to find out the whole Craig\Pandora fiasco otherwise that would have been enough red flag for me.

Just a random FYI, but I contacted Link late last year to see if there was anything he could do to swing a ithic store credit for me, essentially buying me out of the ICP2 so I could buy a GCW-Zero. He never responded. Actually, every email I sent to Craig or Mark went unanswered. The only response I was ever given was when Deb was around. She was nice enough to tell me about the contingency fund. I left Craig a few "update your damn kickstarter" messages on Twitter, after which he usually updated within 24 hours. Probably not because of only me messaging him though.

I still stand by this project being a scam from the beginning, even if it falls under personal opinion. I just see Ed being innocent and not necessarily knowing that the project was never meant to be completed. It's in Ed's best interest to continue to defend the project, especially if there is no public proof or transparency to bring anything otherwise to light.

 

[rl7298]

I am certainly glad that Craig's not involved in Pyra. I'd invest, except that I'm still soured from ICP2, and while I didn't know about Pandora, I've heard so many bad things that I'd kick myself if the project went south. Here's to hoping it really does not.

 

[ekianjo]

There is no scam -- in a scam you collect money, you don't spend it on designs, prototypes and PCBs. It's just Craig's incompetence, nothing more, nothing less.

Except that we don't know where the money went for MOST of it, so I'm not sure you can rule out a scam by a certain person at this stage, even if the other members had nothing to do with it. 

 

[ekianjo]

People like that often end up in important manager positions (in particular in "crisis manager" type of jobs, where they get paid huge amounts of money to restructure a complete company), where they can ruin many companies and the more companies they ruin, the more praise they get and the higher their paycheck. The whole Pandora Ltd / iCP2 story is peanuts compared to the kind of stuff that happens on a daily basis in large companies all over the world (especially multinationals). And it's all legal. It's just how capitalism works.

I think it's extremely unecessary to blame the system when we are just talking here about a person who has a history of being unreliable. This has nothing to do with capitalism, and let's not try to paint socialism in a good light either as it were better for people, because examples abound of the contrary. Unless you want to derail off the topic, but you will meet strong opposition here. 

There would be no computers in everyone's hands, btw, if not for capitalism.

 

[comradekingu]

I dont think legal, and "at a good day"-scenarios, applies here.

But i am not corrupt, said the man who ran of with all the money.

I am corrupt and this is why, i have no intention of paying back, said noone ever.

 

[klapse]

Ed has stated elsewhere that he will only accept orders for the Pyra when the final prototypes are finished and the production run is set up.

And as ekianjo implied, there is no political system that improves upon capitalism, which is millions of individuals investing their own money (capital) for projects that they (using their best information) think will succeed.

There is no übermensch that can direct an entire economy to successfully produce innovative and most-wanted goods. Spending other people's money that has been confiscated leads to terrible results. A good example is the new Berlin airport.