iCP2: They're throwing in the towel.

[rl7298]

I'm choosing to do something about this, it's not some emotional need like you're suggesting. When I get screwed over I make a decision as to whether if it's worth my time to pursue it. In this case I've decided that it is. Why does that bother you so much? Perhaps you and Moxie need to accept that people think differently than you and you two need to move on.


What has 10 or 20 years have to do with anything? If you're suggesting I'll mellow with age you're making two false assumptions.

I really don't care if you're emotional about this or not - although you have been over and over again - but however you look at it you're petty and vindictive. And the one and only reason I give even half a shit about anything you're saying or doing here is because I don't want to see Link get punished because you and others like you have to make someone pay.


What I thought might happen with age is you might get some perspective. I guess we'll see. It's never too late.

Granted, if one of these upstanding individuals contacted me and gave me a refund on their own free will, without me needing to "opt in" to some silly refund program, I'd likely take it and call it a day. I am an American after all.

Give me your paypal, I'll do it. This conspiracy theory bullshit you're piling on Link is totally unfair. He didn't scam anyone here, and I don't know where you get off saying he's going to go on to do scams under other companies. But I guess you don't need evidence of anything and you don't care about throwing people in the mud so long as you get your fucking retribution over your miserable little Kickstarter contribution.


And believe me, the very thought of covering for even a penny of Craig's mess makes me sick, but not quite as sick as you're making me right now.


But I'm sure you'll just say I'm a big shill like you did with sswam and I'm sure you won't take me up on it either.

If you are serious, feel free to send me a private message on this forum. The last person who offered this type of action was not serious about it. You have a post count next to your name and a rep around here. Gifted PayPal, full $87 amount. Call it a buyout if you like. If Craig ever comes up with the refunds, I'll make sure it's known that you own my backer status and you can get reimbursement from him. But this can be handled via pm, as I know previous posts about this have been mentioned by mods that it shouldn't be talked about in public forum.

However, opinions stated on a page on a discussion forum should not anger you as much as you are implying. They shouldn't make you sick. I never said Link was taking the money and using it for other businesses. I stated the other businesses Link has ties to, and that refunds are not being given. I have only stated facts, any implications are derived by the party misinterpreting those facts. A little transparency on the part of Link would aid in putting that fire out, but he's forwarding it all to Craig now.

 

[elwing]

Is there any particular reason why the money would be transferred back to link after the parts are sold?

I would hope, for privacy reasons, that only Product 3 LLC got the customer lists...

 

[rl7298]

Is that why we're supposed to email that info to get a refund, because Craig has no customer lists? Still, all he would need for refunds are email addresses. Unless of course he plans on refunding people in chocolate.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[ekianjo]

Is that why we're supposed to email that info to get a refund, because Craig has no customer lists?

Probably the consumer list was lost in another burning car. Shit happens! 

 

[rl7298]

He could 3d print some IOU's.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[elwing]

Seriously I don't see why a company would share this kind of data when they aren't required for a subcontractor...

 

[Klumpen]

For those who have missed it:

http://www.b3ta.com/questions/schoolnaughtiness/post1347342

I never said Link was taking the money and using it for other businesses. I stated the other businesses Link has ties to, and that refunds are not being given. I have only stated facts, any implications are derived by the party misinterpreting those facts. A little transparency on the part of Link would aid in putting that fire out, but he's forwarding it all to Craig now.

Maybe so would you after being screwed this hard (which happened to Link).

 

[rl7298]

Actually if I was Link, I wouldn't sign my name on contracts that I personally or my business insurance couldn't cover. I'd consult a risk vs reward equation. I'd also in the end tell Craig to run his own Kickstarter and let me know when he has finished, tangible product in quantity I can stock in my Web store.

Neither guy is an amateur at this process. We already know Craig is fishy. But Link? There has to be more to this. Why take such a huge risk?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[comradekingu]

So supposedly craig is selling his house to pay for whatever predicament he put link in. What i get from that is craig knows link is the one who is put under fire, or thats just the angle he wants to play.

Nontheless, its not like this will go away, so i await patiently.

Didnt link close down the company, how is he then supposed to get the money back?

I should think if everyhing was planned very well then we would have the aftermath done with already, to me it seems like its not the selling of parts that keeps people waiting.

And whats with the new refund list, no other kickstarter who makes refunds does that, they handle it with the list they have got, in kickstarter...

 

[rl7298]

The house bit reminds me of when Dustin Diamond (from the TV show Saved by the Bell) sold t-shirts for 15 dollars to save his house from foreclosure.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Mr_Loon]

+1 for feeling bad about the total lack of the promised transparency from Link. I do genuinely feel sorry that Link has been taken for a ride along with the rest of us, but from my perspective ignoring simple & pertinent questions like 'who decided to cancel the project?' etc. has done his reputation no good whatsoever.

Of course the main problem is the continued weirdness / seemingly dodgy behaviour from Craig.

In a previous update we were told that $25K was needed to save the project, now were told that the plan is to sell a house to cover debts, surely it would make far more sense to sell the house use $25K from that to finish the production & then continue to sell & manufacture iCP2s?

 

[darkborn]

I can tell you exactly what went on here, it's pretty easy:

1. Link funded Product 3 LLC to gather the funds for Craigs iControlPad 2 production.

2. After successful funding, Link sent some money to my company (to fulfill the PCB production and buy all the needed parts) and some to Craig (to fullfill the case production and buy the needed parts as well as to handle shipping within Europe). He only kept the money needed for the shipments within US. I don't know that, but the designer (Michael Weston) has probably been paid to do his job as well.

3. The bare PCBs have been produced, 100 have been populated, the parts are lying around at the company. That part is finished. Nothing has been heard from Craig what happened to the case and / or the money.

4. Therefore, the full thing has been cancelled. The production company is currently trying to sell the remaining parts. I've got approx. 10,000 EUR left for the production run, which will then be transferred back to Link together with the money for the sold parts (whenever they have been sold...)

That's what went on.

It has already been posted.

And weekly updates wouldn't change anything, as I doubt Link will hear anything else from Craig at all anymore, and as long as the parts haven't been sold, there's nothing to be updated as well.

Your legal action will bring nothing new to the public - it will make public if Link did any fraud, but as far as I know he didn't - he simply hasn't been delivered with the ordered iCP2s by iControlPad Ltd. in UK.

A legal action against Link will not bring to the public whatever Craig did - and that's the issue.

That's not true, and this is so wrong. You are protecting each other, it is so obvious. Not because you are all guilty, more like because you are all cowards.


LEGAL ACTION AGAINST LINK IS THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE ANY JUSTICE IN THIS CASE.


Craig is cancer for Pandora, ICP2 AND PYRA. If you can't see that, don't ask others to close their eyes on this.

Poison-effect is spreading to Pyra - and for all similar future projects.


Craig is cancer and should be treated like that. If Link becomes collateral victim, so be it. Right now you have thousands of collateral victims that want justice.


If Link has not done any fraud, why do you protect him? If Link is clean, he will be not prosecuted by the authorities.


But Link is "the link" to get Craig. Further investigations will find out Craig's bad activities, or even possible pattern of fraud.


This is the only way to get your hands clean of all that happened, and vice versa: dark shadow will follow you guys for all future "Pyras".


Your efforts to hush up things that happened here are not balanced with your efforts to get things officially investigated.


These efforts are contra-productive and they are spreading undermined confidence in all similar projects. Not only projects related to this community, but all other parallel and future similar community projects. Damage is much bigger than you are ready to admit.

 

[ZXDunny]

That's not true, and this is so wrong. You are protecting each other, it is so obvious. Not because you are all guilty, more like because you are all cowards.

LEGAL ACTION AGAINST LINK IS THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE ANY JUSTICE IN THIS CASE.

Craig is cancer for Pandora, ICP2 AND PYRA. If you can't see that, don't ask others to close their eyes on this.

Poison-effect is spreading to Pyra - and for all similar future projects.

Craig is cancer and should be treated like that. If Link becomes collateral victim, so be it. Right now you have thousands of collateral victims that want justice.

If Link has not done any fraud, why do you protect him? If Link is clean, he will be not prosecuted by the authorities.

But Link is "the link" to get Craig. Further investigations will find out Craig's bad activities, or even possible pattern of fraud.

This is the only way to get your hands clean of all that happened, and vice versa: dark shadow will follow you guys for all future "Pyras".

Your efforts to hush up things that happened here are not balanced with your efforts to get things officially investigated.

These efforts are contra-productive and they are spreading undermined confidence in all similar projects. Not only projects related to this community, but all other parallel and future similar community projects. Damage is much bigger than you are ready to admit.

Woah, steady on there fella. I suggest that rather than rant about this on a forum, you get in touch with a lawyer and bring your own case against ED, Craig, Link and MWeston.

Until you've grown enough of a set of balls to make that step, then shut the fuck up.

Jesus, you guys and your posturing.

D.

 

[EvilDragon]

A legal action against Link will not bring to the public whatever Craig did - and that's the issue.

That's not true, and this is so wrong. You are protecting each other, it is so obvious. Not because you are all guilty, more like because you are all cowards.

Yay, awesome, now I'm a coward even though I'm not even officially involved in the iCP2

LEGAL ACTION AGAINST LINK IS THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE ANY JUSTICE IN THIS CASE.

Read my sentence again:

"A legal action against Link will not bring to the public whatever Craig did - and that's the issue."

I never said taking legal action doesn't achieve anything, I just said it won't bring to the public whatever Craig did.

You know, when I saw how Craig handled the Pandora (before I got the okay to start handling the production myself) I had quite a few sessions with lawyers and my tax counsellor to find out what would happen if Craig simply couldn't deliver the remaining Pandoras to me.

Would I be personally liable? With my own private money and objects?

Or would it stay within the company?

Well, here's what happens when you file for insolvency (which is what Link would have to do with Product 3 LLC, in case everyone would want the full money back):

An insolvency manager will take over the company and tries to find ways to get money back into the company (by selling assets, trying to get money / products from companies who owe to that company, etc.) to be able to either continue business later on or pay as much debts back as possible and then close the company.

Once he has taken over, Link will no longer be able to make any decisions.

At the same time, it will be checked why the company went down the road.

Was the CEO (Link) responsible for it? Did he do illegal stuff?

If yes, then he will be personally liable with his own money.

If not, then he is not personally liable and his private property is protected.

Now, in case of Product 3 LLC, everything is properly documented.

Link collected the Kickstarter money and sent it to various companies to fullfill the production, one of them being iControlPad Ltd.

The production failed - but that was not Links personal guilt.

So they will find out that iControlPad Ltd. and Global Components still owes him the finished products. Cases and keymats from iControlPad Ltd., PCBs from Global Components. Global Components got the parts and can deliver - or sell the parts and don't deliver.

iControlPad Ltd. can't deliver - and that's why the product failed.

The insolveny manager will try to get some money from iControlPad Ltd., but no one knows how much. I don't think he'll take legal action against them, as they will only do that in case they hope to get most of the money back that way.

So the most probable outcome if legal action is taken against Link:

Once he files for insolvency, an insolveny manager will take over, check what money / assets can easily be gotten and pays out partly to everyone Product 3 LLC owes money to.

Nothing what Craig did here will go public, as they will most probably not even take legal action against him.

I'm no expert or lawyer, but that's the most probable outcome in my opinion.

And it will only happen in case more people take legal action against Link than he has remaining money.

As long as there still is money left, he can pay out the refund (what he will probably do in that case).

He will have to file for insolvency when nothing is left anymore.

So taking legal action against Link will only hurt him, not Craig.

And if you could explain what this has to do with being a coward, I'd be happy to know.

Craig is cancer for Pandora, ICP2 AND PYRA. If you can't see that, don't ask others to close their eyes on this.

Poison-effect is spreading to Pyra - and for all similar future projects.

Sure, there will still be some negative thoughts, but as far as I am aware, it's pretty clear to a lot of people that the Pandora and the Pyra is now being handled properly.

And without Craig.

If Link has not done any fraud, why do you protect him? If Link is clean, he will be not prosecuted by the authorities.

Yes and no. He will not be prosecuted, but it still will be a bad and hard time for him.

And what for?

He tried to help here, was hoping that if the iCP2 sells well, it will help the Pandora and the remaining preorders as well.

And that is a reason you want to give him a hard time?

Or is it the 70 USD (or whatever it is) you paid?

But Link is "the link" to get Craig. Further investigations will find out Craig's bad activities, or even possible pattern of fraud.

If further investigations will happen, what I seriously doubt.

Sad, but true.

But legal action against Link will simply be a legal action against Link.

I doubt anyone in the US would start investigating against Craig because of that.

This is the only way to get your hands clean of all that happened, and vice versa: dark shadow will follow you guys for all future "Pyras".

Nothing will change for the Pyra, regardless whether Craig will be investigated legally or not.

The issue happened with the Pandora, and that's what people remembered.

And which is the reason it was so important getting a good reputation back, which we did as good as possible, in my opinion.

Your efforts to hush up things that happened here are not balanced with your efforts to get things officially investigated.

The only way for an official investigation against Craig is taking legal action against his company. Not against Links company.

What you want is that all the remaining Pandora preorderers report Craig to the government.

These efforts are contra-productive and they are spreading undermined confidence in all similar projects. Not only projects related to this community, but all other parallel and future similar community projects. Damage is much bigger than you are ready to admit.

I think I know very well how big the damage is. And I'm also pretty sure that damage won't change when Craig will be investigated.

The people who talk negatively about the Pandora are the ones who think about the "PANDORA". They often don't even know who Craig is, they simply see the "PANDORA".

As soon as they know who Craig is and who I am, they are also aware the Pandora production works nicely now and that I'm trying to help them.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

+1 for feeling bad about the total lack of the promised transparency from Link. I do genuinely feel sorry that Link has been taken for a ride along with the rest of us, but from my perspective ignoring simple & pertinent questions like 'who decided to cancel the project?' etc. has done his reputation no good whatsoever.

Of course the main problem is the continued weirdness / seemingly dodgy behaviour from Craig.

In a previous update we were told that $25K was needed to save the project, now were told that the plan is to sell a house to cover debts, surely it would make far more sense to sell the house use $25K from that to finish the production & then continue to sell & manufacture iCP2s?

Link said that he "pulled the plug" on the icp2 project sometime ago.

 

[darkborn]

@EvilDragon, Here we are again. "It is not me, talk to my hand".

Now, in case of Product 3 LLC, everything is properly documented. Link collected the Kickstarter money and sent it to various companies to fullfill the production, one of them being iControlPad Ltd.

...
The only way for an official investigation against Craig is taking legal action against his company. Not against Links company.

But WHO is stopping you and Link to take legal action for an official investigation against Craig?
Because, you're "not" hurt? I don't think so. Because "taking legal action against Link will only hurt him, not Craig"???
2700 2500 of people are already hurt. 400000 USD gone somewhere. But Link will be hurt, and you are untouchable?
 

I am talking about FRAUD, which could not be done without Link involved. And pardon me, you said:
 

Yay, awesome, now I'm a coward even though I'm not even officially involved in the iCP2

"We are Craig Rothwell, Michael Weston, Dave Cancilier, Mark Linkhorst, Jacquelyn and Debs."
Your name was there, now it is not anymore. Wow, let's start laughing. "It is not me, talk to my hand":

I've got approx. 10,000 EUR left for the production run, which will then be transferred back to Link

Very funny. You're not involved, you just helped Craig (with your name) to make people believe that "ICP2 is fair business, trusty people are involved, nothing is going wrong here". You helped Craig to screw people again, after Pandora disgrace.
Was it your or Link's intention is irrelevant. Things are done.

Or is it the 70 USD (or whatever it is) you paid?

NO, it is not about "me and 70 USD" and you know that very well. Very ugly from you, trying to relativize things like this.
(Actually it was 327GBP or 542 USD for Pandora in my case).

It is about 500 people paid 350 USD or more for Pandora (and got nothing): 500 x 350 = 175000 USD,
dozens paying more for "upgrade" (and got nothing),
dozens donating by side,
and
2168 people paying 209100 USD for iCP2 (and got nothing),

which means total of 2700 2500 screwed people for total of 375000 USD (but probably more then 400000 USD).

So it is not me and my 70 USD.
 

The issue happened with the Pandora, and that's what people remembered.

Nothing to be worry about? Lucky you. Craig's school. 2700 2500 ppl should think different.

(EDIT: upgraders are from same base, donors probably too. There are people who funded iCP2, but who preordered Pandora before. However, amount is still above 2500)

 

[TrashyMG]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Secret-Letting-Guy-Finley/dp/0738711985/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1396623748&sr=8-4&keywords=learning+to+letting+go

 

[klapse]

I hope EvilDragon doesn't waste more time dealing with darkborn et al... there is work to be done on Pyra

 

[darkborn]

I hope EvilDragon doesn't waste more time dealing with darkborn et al... there is work to be done on Pyra

"Product 4 LLC"

 

[Klumpen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Km49gm7GI&t=41s