iCP2: They're throwing in the towel.

[_wb_]

This however completely beggars belief. You don't trust Craig from the outset, he proceeds to lie constantly throughout the project, deliver nothing, the money disappears with no provable explanations for where it's gone, he bails and hangs you out to dry.... and then you decide to give him the benefit of the doubt!? I'm sorry Link, but that isn't a bad choice, that's plain stupidity. 

Yes, exactly the same benefit of the doubt that all the iCP2 backers gave Craig even though most of them were familiar with the OpenPandora Ltd fiasco. I expected huge delays, lies and poor communication from Craig, but I still backed the iCP2 -- I expected bad things to happen, but I expected that Craig would eventually deliver. So I had bad expectations, supported the project anyway, and things turned out even worse than expected. Was that stupid? Maybe, but it was a unique project and I could miss the $87 or whatever it was, so I don't really regret it.

Anyone who blames Link for giving Craig the benefit of the doubt, should also blame all the iCP2 backers who did the same thing. I don't see why Link would need to be punished harder than the iCP2 backers for being naïve and too trusting.

I understand those who want to punish Craig for this, or at least try to make sure that this will not happen again. It is not morally satisfying that Craig can just walk away from this, without even a public apology or even just a decent explanation of what happened. But I don't know what is the best way to achieve that, and I fear that there may not even be a way. I don't think it's a good idea to force Product 3 LLC to spend whatever money that can be recuperated from the mess on expensive international lawsuits that will likely take ages -- perhaps it may even have to file for bankruptcy before anything happens. It is very well possible that Craig's company did nothing wrong legally, so the whole exercise could be pointless. It's a big risk where the only guarantee are the legal costs; I don't think it's a good idea to try to repair a bad gamble with an even bigger gamble. I think it's probably better to just hand out refunds as quickly as possible (well, without rush-selling components too low), so we can close this final chapter in Craig's book of mismanagement.

Perhaps Product 3 LLC can make a deal with ithic.com and dragonbox.de to give iCP2 backers the option to get their partial refund in the form of a voucher for their shop with a somewhat higher value than the cash refund? I think that many iCP2 backers who paid $87 would be happier with, say, a $70 voucher they can use to buy a Pandora or Pyra or GCW-Zero, than with $50 in cash. Of course ithic.com and especially dragonbox.de have nothing to do with the iCP2 so they don't have to make such an arrangement, but it could be a mutually beneficial arrangement.

 

[ekianjo]

, should also blame all the iCP2 backers who did the same thing.

Don't include ALL the ICP2 backers in that statement. There were a number of backers who did not know anything about Craig's past and the Open Pandora mess he created - but there's still a significant amount of backers from the OP community who were clearly WARNED not to trust Craig again. I remember the Euphory at that time on the boards, and the blind trust of some members here in Craig's ability to make it happen despite his "glorious" track record. 

 

[Fzero]

I'd accept Exo's generous and good idea too, sounds like that customer will cause a lot of grief and boring form filling work for you Link

Also Link since you will most likely not recover all of the Kickstarter money, I'd gladly forfeit my refund($100) to go to noisier people that are more eager to get their refund. You shouldn't have to pay for Craig's mis-management.

You can consider me for this too. I'm in UK so not sure if that means only Craig has access or whatever... But I have around £150 pledged in this and tbh consider it as washed already, shit happens, doesn't seem your fault directly at all. Use it to refund someone if it saves dealing with lawyers and stuff

 

[EvilDragon]

But if there aren't any to begin with, that would not be a problem, I guess. Except ED has more then enough nubs (for Pandora production and repairment) lying around and could offer to sell them...

Nope. I'm currently desoldering nubs from failed GC PCBs just to have enough to finish Pandora production.

 

[thatgui]

Nope. I'm currently desoldering nubs from failed GC PCBs just to have enough to finish Pandora production.

ugh, that does not sound good, but thanks for clearing that up.

 

[frefol]

I would be OK with an iCP2 without the nubs.  I don't use the nubs that often on my Pandora anyway.  Just having the dpad and gaming buttons would be enough for most of the games I would be playing.  I payed a hell of a lot more than $87, but I saw it as an investment.  I understood I was taking a gamble and I lost that bet.

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, but there are no buttons or DPad as well... no idea how that was planned.

 

[Timstertoo]

Craig pulled a fast one on Link.

He maneuvered Link in a position where he has a limited upside and a huge downside. Link is experiencing the downside to the max. 

Craig self has the opposite, he had a limited downside (not sure if he has any downside as he might have profited from this scenario too) as he just hot potato'd it as soon things weren't panning out and he would've made the most money if everything went fine.

I understand backers going after Link as they have no one else to pursue, especially the ones with no former knowledge or interest in the whole Pandora scene. It's a sad situation and with my experiences here up till now I would not have been one of them as I would understand that Link has been had like the rest. I really wanted an ICP2 and my mouse has been hovering over the fund button on Kickstarter but some of the antics Craig was pulling with the Pandora then made me decide that I'd lose all self respect if he'd take me for a ride again.

I just hope things don't get too ugly for Link. As soon as this dies down and the Kickstarter backers have nothing to find on this forum anymore we can all put this behind us and Link can hopefully redeem some of his losses by being the US sales point for the Pyra.

Good news is that this dramabomb is probably (hopefully) the last one that Craig can cause here and in the future will only live on us running gags instead of people being upset by being the victim of what might be a series of confidence scams by Craig. 

Also Exophase although I really appreciate your efforts to relieve pressure. Last thing you want is to give a load of the Kickstarter group an incentive to come here and threaten Link as there is this forum member that will then pull his wallet. So my advice is to handle stuff like this through PM. 

Good luck Link! Worst I can blame you for is really wanting to be part of creating something cool although your gut said no and getting burned. I've been there so I'm no better then you in that respect. If you take anything out of this, it should be the ability to walk away when it feels wrong however much you want it to work. (can be applied to dealings with women too )

 

[Exophase]

Also Exophase although I really appreciate your efforts to relieve pressure. Last thing you want is to give a load of the Kickstarter group an incentive to come here and threaten Link as there is this forum member that will then pull his wallet. So my advice is to handle stuff like this through PM.

I've thought about the impact this could have and deliberately decided to keep what I was doing open. People are going to know that he got refunded whether anyone says anything here or not - if he doesn't say it outright they're going to want to know why he isn't pursuing legal action anymore. It's better that they know it's because I gave Link money so no one gets the wrong idea that Link is now going to be able to refund everyone. If people have a problem with me putting up money for this guy and not them they can come complain to me instead of Link.

Not that it takes a lot of common sense to realize that that's where his refund came from after I volunteered the money and he demanded it come through Link instead. I don't buy this stuff about not legally being able to accept money from me either, if anyone has a poorer standing in this transaction it'd be me.

 

[klapse]

One lesson I learned, never do business with Ryan Lucas.

I enjoyed the derailed thread more, tbh.

 

[Exophase]

For what it's worth, the refund did go through and Ryan is honoring his promise to drop legal action against iCP2:

I have received and my claim against Product 3 LLC (Mark Linkhorst) is now closed. Please direct all correspondence to the project manager as I can no longer comment on this project.

(from the comments page on the iCP2 Kickstarter)

 

[WizardStan]

It does kind of bother me the amount of libel he's thrown at EvilDragon that he's effectively being rewarded for. There's argument from ignorance to be made for what he's said about Link but he was made well aware of EvilDragon's (lack of) involvement long ago and he's still trying to drag him through the mud, going so far as to make disparaging comments against the Pyra project.

 

[Exophase]

It does kind of bother me the amount of libel he's thrown at EvilDragon that he's effectively being rewarded for. There's argument from ignorance to be made for what he's said about Link but he was made well aware of EvilDragon's (lack of) involvement long ago and he's still trying to drag him through the mud, going so far as to make disparaging comments against the Pyra project.

I dislike and disrespect the things he has been saying as much as anyone (and I'm sure everyone could tell ;p) And of course I don't like that he basically gets his way over this, but sometimes you just have to make these sorts of concessions. To me the cost paid losing face and setting a bad precedent, although a significant cost, is better than the cost paid from a guy using free legal counsel (or is a lawyer himself like the case with Neil Singh) to take Link to court. And the continued damage against Link and ED by him continuing to stalk and flame their other endeavors.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Ryan Lucas is what you would call a " Dickhead"!!

 

[sswam]

Okay Exophase, a precedent has been set!! hand over my refund too. j/k

(I also offered to refund Ryan's money if he would fuck off, about a year ago. He didn't follow up, and later accused me behind my back of being insincere in the offer!)

 

[ekianjo]

(I also offered to refund Ryan's money if he would fuck off, about a year ago. He didn't follow up, and later accused me behind my back of being insincere in the offer!)

 

Haha. At least we know for sure he's a dick! 

 

[Exophase]

Okay Exophase, a precedent has been set!! hand over my refund too. j/k

(I also offered to refund Ryan's money if he would fuck off, about a year ago. He didn't follow up, and later accused me behind my back of being insincere in the offer!)

I always thought the story seemed kind of weird. It didn't seem like you to actually offer it then not follow through.

 

[ekianjo]

I always thought the story seemed kind of weird. It didn't seem like you to actually offer it then not follow through.

It would actually have been funny if he accepted a refund from two sources without saying anything about it. Profit! 

 

[Exophase]

It would actually have been funny if he accepted a refund from two sources without saying anything about it. Profit!

That would actually have been pretty funny

 

[ramboky]

This however completely beggars belief. You don't trust Craig from the outset, he proceeds to lie constantly throughout the project, deliver nothing, the money disappears with no provable explanations for where it's gone, he bails and hangs you out to dry.... and then you decide to give him the benefit of the doubt!? I'm sorry Link, but that isn't a bad choice, that's plain stupidity. 

Yes, exactly the same benefit of the doubt that all the iCP2 backers gave Craig even though most of them were familiar with the OpenPandora Ltd fiasco...

You're missing the point. It was *after* Link had to step in and close the project down that he gave Craig the benefit of the doubt. I stand by what I said, that was utterly stupid. And most backers were not familiar with Craig's past dishonesty and incompetence until much later in the piece.

, should also blame all the iCP2 backers who did the same thing.

Don't include ALL the ICP2 backers in that statement. There were a number of backers who did not know anything about Craig's past and the Open Pandora mess he created - but there's still a significant amount of backers from the OP community who were clearly WARNED not to trust Craig again. I remember the Euphory at that time on the boards, and the blind trust of some members here in Craig's ability to make it happen despite his "glorious" track record. 

Exactly. I hadn't heard of Craig's past until after the project started going south. And at that point people here were getting pretty damn rude with anyone who suggested the ICP2 project was going to be another disaster of Craig's making.

Okay Exophase, a precedent has been set!! hand over my refund too. j/k


(I also offered to refund Ryan's money if he would fuck off, about a year ago. He didn't follow up, and later accused me behind my back of being insincere in the offer!)

That was before the project had been terminated. You offered both Ryan and I money to leave because we were suggesting Craig was going to do a runner and you for some reason were insistent on defending him. You also wished me a painful death. You behaved like an obnoxious dickhead and you were wrong.