iCP2: They're throwing in the towel.

[cuetzpalin]

Just using it as an analogy.


In this case some people have realized they'd have a much easier time going after Link than Craig so that's what their doing, all they care about is his legal accountability in the matter.

I understand now.


Well, even if I think Link is acting very stupidly here; I think going after him is not the best way to handle this Craig fiasco.


At the same time I think he has more chances of going after Craig, or at least he could cooperate with the ones willing to sue Craig.


The way he is handling the matter is just making things worse for him; but he is actually one of the victims of Craig's actions.

 

[Exophase]

Yeah, Link isn't even trying to appease people. If I were in his situation I'd at least be doing something. But if that boiled down to repeating over and over again that he doesn't know anything that probably wouldn't make people an awful lot happier.

It looks like he is very busy now. People are interpreting that as him moving on to the next scam, which I don't think is fair. The way I see it, from Link's point of view his role in iCP2 was minimal and he already fulfilled it, then went on to other projects that were more personally relevant to him. Then all of a sudden after getting heavily involved with this other stuff he has all of these angry iCP2 customers out for blood who want him to drop everything so he can give them his full attention. Maybe it's the right thing for him to do to do this at his own personal expense but I can understand why he wouldn't. And there are people who expect him to refund them, or expect him to give Ithic credit or whatever, do you seriously think he has $200,000 to bankroll this out of pocket?

It doesn't help when not everyone going after him is being very sensible. I haven't made it much of a secret that I'm not impressed with Ryan Lucas's attitude as the de facto head of the iCP2 retribution effort. Here's a write-up on iCP2 he recently had posted:

http://kickscammed.com/project/icontrolpad-2-by-product-3-llc/

Look at how he refers to the "OpenPandora scam", without any consideration to what this does to hurt ED who has been gone way beyond the call for doing the right thing in that project. But that's not enough, check out how he further smears ED:

– Michael Mrozek aka EvilDragon was consulting on this project, but bowed out early. He had his name removed from the Kickstarter page. Many people put up money for preorders because his name was on the project. It added a sense of legitimacy.

ED never bowed out of anything, his relationship with the project today is exactly the same as it was day one. His name was put on the KS page without his permission, ED is the victim there. Ryan knows this, it has been explained to him, but he doesn't care. Let me add that I've never seen any evidence that people backed iCP2 only because they thought ED was involved, certainly not from people like Ryan who had no idea who ED was at the time. Anyone who spent time on this forum - ie, pretty much all the people who would be familiar with ED - knew that this was solely a Craig thing.

And it continues on pretty much implying that ED is the next target worth pursuing, painting him as yet another guy trying to get out of his responsibility:

Craig Rothwell has abandoned the project and at this point it looks like Mark Linkhorst as well. That leaves EvilDragon, who hasn’t said much either. He doesn’t consider himself part of the project to begin with.

Furthermore, Ryan said in this thread that if he got a preorder he'd drop everything. So I offered one, and he replied that if I'm serious I should get in contact with him. So I send him a PM and hear nothing in return - a few days later he's back to campaigning against iCP2. Talk about disingenuous.

 

[Exophase]

Also, let me modify that earlier analogy a little. Let's say Craig lived in a country where debt legally transfers to an heir (which is a real thing in some places). If Craig died would you feel comfortable filing a suit with Craig Jr to get your iCP2 money back?

 

[ekianjo]

Let's say Craig lived in a country where debt legally transfers to an heir (which is a real thing in some places).

Even if debt were not transferable, you should be legally entitled to recover some part of the debt from Craig's possessions (house and other items of value that can be sold).  

 

[ekianjo]

The way I see it, from Link's point of view his role in iCP2 was minimal and he already fulfilled it, then went on to other projects that were more personally relevant to him.

One question, how do you know that Link was not compensated by Craig for setting up the ICP2 project on his behalf ? If that's the case, Link may be reluctant to give up the money he gained from the operation, feeling not responsible for what happened - but unwilling to disclose that information to the public. Just saying it's a possibility. Why would Link do this kind of things for free in the first place anyway ?  

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Also, let me modify that earlier analogy a little. Let's say Craig lived in a country where debt legally transfers to an heir (which is a real thing in some places). If Craig died would you feel comfortable filing a suit with Craig Jr to get your iCP2 money back?

Heh, it's true and worse here in the US where debt got transferred to even the ones not in the family.  You and me are paying for the debt our government created  

 

[EvilDragon]

Heh, neat. Just cleared that up on the Kickstarter-Scam-Site...

 

[rohezal]

One question, how do you know that Link was not compensated by Craig for setting up the ICP2 project on his behalf ? If that's the case, Link may be reluctant to give up the money he gained from the operation, feeling not responsible for what happened - but unwilling to disclose that information to the public. Just saying it's a possibility. Why would Link do this kind of things for free in the first place anyway ?

ED did the translation and money keeping for Global Components for free.

 

[WizardStan]

Why would Link do this kind of things for free in the first place anyway ?

Presumably Link was going to handle North American distribution. He would have been compensated when sales started coming in.

 

[Link]

I am here and really disgusted with being looked at as a scammer.  I will make a Kickstarter update within the next few days, and I'm sure this post will wind up on there sooner than later.  I will detail where money was transferred/when and to where we can expect the funds for refunding backers. 

I've had no word from Craig in March or April, so I've given up on him.  I can't see it being economically feasible to start a suit against him, but am not ruling it out at this point.  I just don't see how you can get blood from a stone.  And at what cost?

For those of you thinking I made a ton of money on this project, my compensation for the project was $1 per unit sold via Kickstarter.  $1 measly dollar.  Kickstarter and Amazon made more money on this project than I did, and nobody is going after them for that money back, but I will try to see if they will refund what they took when the project was funded.

Do we go after MWeston for the money he received for the project, do we go after DaveC who Craig supposedly transferred money to for a case that doesn't exist? 

Personally I want this all to be over with and yes, there was no update lately because it would have been the same old story, and yes, we'd have people out for blood against me for trying to help someone out.  Trying to help a guy who was down, or maybe just setting me up for failure, or ?  I think it would be interesting to bring to light the post where I almost hit the cancel button on the project before it was funded/completed (even while the goal was met for funding).  Does anyone remember that, anyone?  I know that isn't in a public area of this forum but it is out there, and I vocally addressed the situation then in September or October of 2012. 

My gut instinct was that Craig couldn't be trusted at the time the project was live for actions he took against ED involving 1GHz Open Pandoras at the time.  And lets not forget the fact that Craig instructed ED to keep me away from 1GHz Open Pandora sales when he went ahead and announced them to the world for being for sale through Open Pandora LTD (Craig's company). 

My goal is to have refunds sent out by the end of summer.  Hopefully ED can sell off the parts he can, and we can consolidate remaining funds to refund backers.  I apologize for getting involved with the project and any bad light it is bringing on this community that has supported me over the years.  My goal with the project was to help Craig get the device into the world, so that he could be rewarded for his invention(s) and resolve his financial matters with ED and others in the community that he owed products to. 

I made a bad choice, but I'm not going to just walk away from everyone.  I'm not that kind of person.  I've been quiet to bring more to light and give Craig the benefit of the doubt when he said he'd sell his home and put that money back into the project for refunds.  Craig also said he had ICPs that he has somewhere that he was going to give to me too, to sell and get more money in into refunds.  Well, no words from Craig, nothing in months, no ICPs being shipped to me.  It's time to move on.  I don't think backers want to risk losing any remaining funds to pursue Craig legally, and receive less of a refund. 

My sincerest apologies.

 

[FaeMinx]

I would happily donate my refund towards getting Craig's books opened.

=~. O =

 

[fantomid]

The community have to go forward and have to learn from errors.

I was a backer of iCP2 too and I don't know if I will get the refund. No matter.

iCP2 revival after Pyra why not.

One thing I convinced, crowfunding's platforms are not always the best choice.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Link.  You have my sympathy.

 

[notaz]

I think it would be interesting to bring to light the post where I almost hit the cancel button on the project before it was funded/completed (even while the goal was met for funding).  Does anyone remember that, anyone?  I know that isn't in a public area of this forum but it is out there, and I vocally addressed the situation then in September or October of 2012.

From pandora's investors forum:

I'd even say for community's sake it might be worth considering pulling the KS plug as he is doing it all over again with iCP2, just slightly different type of preorder hell. I don't see how he can pull this off to meet November deadline. Or this year even.

...

I am very close to pushing the cancel button on the Kickstarter. The Kickstarter was supposed to launch in June. It's September.

Kickstarter will be doing there own thing in the UK soon, so my company, Product 3 LLC, was formed to help Craig finance the project. It's no longer necessary. He's failed on the Pandora, he's failed on the ICP, he's failed on 1GHz monetary control and fulfillment.

Ithic.com and me don't like failure very much, and while the project appears to be on its way to being funded, I just have no idea if he can be trusted with the money or the manufacture.

At this point, what he's doing with 1GHz units is immoral and I'm wondering if illegal.

 

[Klumpen]

I'm glad that you haven't left these boards.

I just don't see how you can get blood from a stone.  And at what cost?

What makes you think, that Craig has no money? His word?

Afaik he traveled through America a few months ago and may have spent a lot of the money on some BS, but I don't understand, that people think he never has money while there are so big amounts unaccounted for/missing all the time as soon as they are in his hands.

 

[Link]

^

There is a possibility that you are correct.  The question is, at what cost to me, the project, etc. do we have to pay to figure this out?  For anyone who has been around long enough, we know that CircuitCo wasn't pursued legally on the fiasco with the Open Pandora boards they botched and didn't deliver because it would have been extremely expensive and time consuming for an outcome we never will know at this point other than investors saved the Open Pandora project along with EDs graceful project management. 

 

[cuetzpalin]

I'm pretty sure most people here is on your side, and now that you've come back and explained all this, I get that you were trying to actually help the community by helping C to get money out of the ICP to mend for his Pandora orders mess, etc.

I don't know what will happen with C in the end. But I will wait for your further updates and decisions.

Thanks for this updates, it's good to have you stating your position in person.

Hope this gets resolved as fast as possible.

 

[Mr_Loon]

@ Link : Many thanks for an honest and open update. I'm pretty sure that if you make a bit more effort to just tell people exactly what happened and answer any relevant questions (see questions 1b & 6) then all talk of you being involved with some sort of scam will evaporate.

All people want is the promised transparency, things like letting us know your fees for the project as well as where some of the money has gone is a great help. However I'd love to see a real attempt made to account for what happened to the money raised.

As for :

Do we go after MWeston for the money he received for the project, do we go after DaveC who Craig supposedly transferred money to for a case that doesn't exist?

I think it is entirely reasonable to 'go after' MWeston and DaveC in the terms of : You were given $X do you have $Y to give back to the refund fund? It could be that no work was done on the case (there was certainly no mention anywhere of work being done) it could be that DaveC spent hours designing the case but Craig just never bothered to mention it. Without 'going after' them it's unlikely we'll ever find out.

 

[andmaz777]

The 1ghz pre order ripoff was definitely a sign of the end for Craig and any good intentions - whilst trying not to think the worst of Craig it does seem that he is just full of words with no backbone to deliver anything when any problems come along like actually having to manage anything! This ripoff kept me from investing in the kickstarter.


He has probably done immoral things iro these projects that could be also illegal such as the 1 ghz ripoff which just kept getting worse.


Hopefully we will all be proved wrong and these mythical ICPs will be given to LINK along with proceeds from the sale of Craig's house as promised.


Maybe we could start a kickstarter fund to find out once and for all just what Craig actually did - his problem is that he promised to tell the community everything and make videos etc etc but actually did none of this leading to everyone losing their trust in him.

 

[rl7298]

I am here and really disgusted with being looked at as a scammer.  I will make a Kickstarter update within the next few days, and I'm sure this post will wind up on there sooner than later.  I will detail where money was transferred/when and to where we can expect the funds for refunding backers. 

I've had no word from Craig in March or April, so I've given up on him.  I can't see it being economically feasible to start a suit against him, but am not ruling it out at this point.  I just don't see how you can get blood from a stone.  And at what cost?

For those of you thinking I made a ton of money on this project, my compensation for the project was $1 per unit sold via Kickstarter.  $1 measly dollar.  Kickstarter and Amazon made more money on this project than I did, and nobody is going after them for that money back, but I will try to see if they will refund what they took when the project was funded.

Do we go after MWeston for the money he received for the project, do we go after DaveC who Craig supposedly transferred money to for a case that doesn't exist? 

Personally I want this all to be over with and yes, there was no update lately because it would have been the same old story, and yes, we'd have people out for blood against me for trying to help someone out.  Trying to help a guy who was down, or maybe just setting me up for failure, or ?  I think it would be interesting to bring to light the post where I almost hit the cancel button on the project before it was funded/completed (even while the goal was met for funding).  Does anyone remember that, anyone?  I know that isn't in a public area of this forum but it is out there, and I vocally addressed the situation then in September or October of 2012. 

My gut instinct was that Craig couldn't be trusted at the time the project was live for actions he took against ED involving 1GHz Open Pandoras at the time.  And lets not forget the fact that Craig instructed ED to keep me away from 1GHz Open Pandora sales when he went ahead and announced them to the world for being for sale through Open Pandora LTD (Craig's company). 

My goal is to have refunds sent out by the end of summer.  Hopefully ED can sell off the parts he can, and we can consolidate remaining funds to refund backers.  I apologize for getting involved with the project and any bad light it is bringing on this community that has supported me over the years.  My goal with the project was to help Craig get the device into the world, so that he could be rewarded for his invention(s) and resolve his financial matters with ED and others in the community that he owed products to. 

I made a bad choice, but I'm not going to just walk away from everyone.  I'm not that kind of person.  I've been quiet to bring more to light and give Craig the benefit of the doubt when he said he'd sell his home and put that money back into the project for refunds.  Craig also said he had ICPs that he has somewhere that he was going to give to me too, to sell and get more money in into refunds.  Well, no words from Craig, nothing in months, no ICPs being shipped to me.  It's time to move on.  I don't think backers want to risk losing any remaining funds to pursue Craig legally, and receive less of a refund. 

My sincerest apologies.

Your intentions being good or not, your name is on the LLC. In the United States, any claims against this project go to you. I have filed for refunds with Kickstarter, Amazon Payments, my Credit Card Company, all of which tell me the exact same thing: Mark Linkhorst is responsible because his name is on the LLC. I should pursue my claim with him. That is exactly what I'm doing. By placing your name on that document, my debt is directly with you and not with Craig. If I resided in the United Kingdom, then my claim would be with Craig. Until the refunds come or you directly refund me $87, I will continue to pursue you. Life is all about choices. You made the choice to professionally and personally back Craig Rothwell by placing your name on that document. I have made the choice to pursue you for the amount of money I am owed. Until you shore up your debts, this is going to be made public, and your association to this project will follow you to your other endeavors.

Personally, if I were you, I would handle this matter quickly and not let it drag out. You have plenty of explaining to do and avoiding the topic with empty meaningless updates will not protect you. Your professional capacity and demeanor in handling this project are disturbing. You are not even providing us with real working addresses and ways to contact you. You seem to expect us to sit around with baited breath until you post occassional empty updates. While you have longtime fans here, the rest of us don't consider you our favorite person right now. You continue to pass the blame to Craig. If this is the problem, then you take your own money and hire a lawyer and pursue Craig. He breached your contract and trust. That is if a contract exists at all. Still, none of this is our problem. This is your problem and you are refusing to deal with it. You can dance around the subject forever, but in the end it will only follow you to your other projects. How you handle yourself right now will determine how many people trust you and decide to deal with you in the future.

My legal counsel has informed me that taking a refund from anyone other then Mark Linkhorst can be a liability. If anyone else wants to refund me, they need to pass that money to Mark Linkhorst, of which he then can refund me. You know my address, my PayPal is the same as my email address. My Amazon Payments account is also that address. Until I see a payment of $87 for the item amount from Mark Linkhorst, my case is still open and I will actively pursue it. The opening of the ICP2refunds gmail account is just another wall you put up between you are your customers. You are not fooling anyone.

We can drag this out forever or you can shore up your debt and move on. I created the page on Kickscammed to create a central location for everyone to give their input. I plan on posting links to scanned copies of my correspondence letters with the Attorney General of Vermont. They are in the process of escalating the case to the Secretary of State's office. You will be investigated and placed under scrunity. Other backers are asking that I pursue this as a case against you. I really don't have the time. As long as I have a claim against you, I will be invested in this. Again, only you are the one who can change that.

This is my last post on this forum. Since you do not respond to emails nor postal mail, the fact that you do still log into this site and speak, I will consider this my last correspondance to you in this capacity. Any further correspondance will be via email, postal mail, or through my legal counsel.

Signed,

Ryan Lucas