I wonder what is the point of having top of the chart processing power?
- Thread starter xiongxioi
- Start date
This kind of post (all of it) is the kind of thing that makes me want to buy a P2.
just because big names make big money in android smartphones doesn't mean that an android-focused P2 will do equally well
Get the design right, and there's a guaranteed fanclub right here.
Also agree.
An android/mass-market P2 might bring financial stability, developers and brand recognition
Or it might destroy this community and put the project out of its depth in debt....
I'd say theres room for a popular pocket computer in geek circles - where have all the nokia/maemo customers gone now that Ms have barged in?
The P2 EvilDragon edition: SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
All my support are belong to it!
(and any other memes I can thing of
)You guys are being pretty unfair to Craigix. You guys claim he is being short and rude when actually he's being direct. If you don't want to hear what he's trying to say, or want to second guess it constantly based on forum polls and what the deciding community wants, no wonder he tires so quickly. Some of you aren't as stoic as you think you are.
Nothing that any of you have said has ANYTHING to do with Craigix's position. Nothing. Let's go through a few.
Niche Market: Fine that's a good enough goal but it doesn't matter if your offering is subpar right out of the gate. Further being niche is not mutually exclusive with top end specs. It may surprise you that you can be niche, have top end specs, and not break the bank all at the same time! You guys can't even adequately define what niche market or current user is anyway because everything stated doesn't counter Craigix's position in the lightest.
Common Sense: We are talking about the second generation of hardware. What do you expect will be the reception or reviews of a piece of hardware that is relatively anemic in power and specifications? Who would buy such a thing when better, more powerful, more functional and cheaper devices exist already. Why you. That's who. The niche market, who through careful planning and insight has shrunk the niche market even further. Shrunken so far, why even bother upgrading? Upgrading just means you'd have to buy new microSD memory cards and transfer data around anyway.
When the original Pandora had its specs released I don't recall anyone remarking on how delightfully underpowered it was, or how it was so orgasmically underpowered for a niche market of underpowered devices underpowered power users. Heck it's zombie pandy anyway because anytime anyone mentions that the specs are underpowered they are quickly corrected. In that case just stick with the P1. I'm still rocking 2 19'inch CRmotherfuckingT's for that matter. So I know what it's like to hold onto and use older technology.
Top End Specs: Durrr. Top end specs does not mean you are directly competing with cell phones or the big players. If fear is the driving force behind decisions against all else considered, I think you need to re-evaluate things. Things like losing niche status because you have specs that can be appreciated by people other than your grandma or fear of niche status customer wrath from my perspective, is ridiculous and of limited scope.
Devs: You are not going to attract devs if your niche market is toooooooooo smaaaaaaaaalllll. It kind of works like this. You make an awesome product with targeted specs and budget constraints, you make the barrier to entry as looooooooowwwwww as possible for consumers. People buy the shitnuggles out of your product. Devs are all like Dere's gooollldd in dem dere hils! And make software for your product. You can even make an underpowered crappy product and be wildly successful! Look at the xbox360 for example. At one time it had a %60 (SIXTY PERCENT) fail rate. It still worked out though. Why? It didn't target a niche market. McDonald's with some of the crappiest burgers around has a kajillion sold! Why. Non-niche market. If you want devs to come to your niche market and write shit, make an epic fucking device! You don't need to spec burst everything to make it, so at this point we can probably relax.
Underpowered devices: You can have underpowered devices as long as everything else is polished to a high degree, software, customer service, communication, tech support etc. Or you can do that with a decently spec'ed (forward looking) device that is able to run software already polished to a high degree so that you can concentrate on the other stuff.
This thing is over a year old and its oak trail chip from intel runs linux. What do you think of the specs?
[VIDEO]
This is what the new version looks like.
The new specs:
About the type of linux the oak trail chipset supports:
Nothing that any of you have said has ANYTHING to do with Craigix's position. Nothing. Let's go through a few.
Niche Market: Fine that's a good enough goal but it doesn't matter if your offering is subpar right out of the gate. Further being niche is not mutually exclusive with top end specs. It may surprise you that you can be niche, have top end specs, and not break the bank all at the same time! You guys can't even adequately define what niche market or current user is anyway because everything stated doesn't counter Craigix's position in the lightest.
Common Sense: We are talking about the second generation of hardware. What do you expect will be the reception or reviews of a piece of hardware that is relatively anemic in power and specifications? Who would buy such a thing when better, more powerful, more functional and cheaper devices exist already. Why you. That's who. The niche market, who through careful planning and insight has shrunk the niche market even further. Shrunken so far, why even bother upgrading? Upgrading just means you'd have to buy new microSD memory cards and transfer data around anyway.
When the original Pandora had its specs released I don't recall anyone remarking on how delightfully underpowered it was, or how it was so orgasmically underpowered for a niche market of underpowered devices underpowered power users. Heck it's zombie pandy anyway because anytime anyone mentions that the specs are underpowered they are quickly corrected. In that case just stick with the P1. I'm still rocking 2 19'inch CRmotherfuckingT's for that matter. So I know what it's like to hold onto and use older technology.
Top End Specs: Durrr. Top end specs does not mean you are directly competing with cell phones or the big players. If fear is the driving force behind decisions against all else considered, I think you need to re-evaluate things. Things like losing niche status because you have specs that can be appreciated by people other than your grandma or fear of niche status customer wrath from my perspective, is ridiculous and of limited scope.
Devs: You are not going to attract devs if your niche market is toooooooooo smaaaaaaaaalllll. It kind of works like this. You make an awesome product with targeted specs and budget constraints, you make the barrier to entry as looooooooowwwwww as possible for consumers. People buy the shitnuggles out of your product. Devs are all like Dere's gooollldd in dem dere hils! And make software for your product. You can even make an underpowered crappy product and be wildly successful! Look at the xbox360 for example. At one time it had a %60 (SIXTY PERCENT) fail rate. It still worked out though. Why? It didn't target a niche market. McDonald's with some of the crappiest burgers around has a kajillion sold! Why. Non-niche market. If you want devs to come to your niche market and write shit, make an epic fucking device! You don't need to spec burst everything to make it, so at this point we can probably relax.
Underpowered devices: You can have underpowered devices as long as everything else is polished to a high degree, software, customer service, communication, tech support etc. Or you can do that with a decently spec'ed (forward looking) device that is able to run software already polished to a high degree so that you can concentrate on the other stuff.
This thing is over a year old and its oak trail chip from intel runs linux. What do you think of the specs?
[VIDEO]
This is what the new version looks like.
The new specs:
About the type of linux the oak trail chipset supports:
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Pandora is pretty under-powered, even compare the 1 Ghz version with really low end tablets, such as the nexus 7. That doesn't stop me and many others liking it.
I would argue that even no body likes low-specs, the OPT doesn't need to rush to meet everyone's needs.
I would not mind if the pandora 2 only has some pretty awful chips -such as the tegra 3 - while still cost 500 pounds.
A lot of us didn't buy it for its performance, its selling point is its design and the good men behind it.
I would rather let the team have a larger profit margin than making them working their hands to the bone like what is going on right now for Craigix.
We need them for many more products, not just the pandora 1, or the pandora 2 or the ICP; even the pandora 100, if I live to that day.
This is really for their own good.
However, do not cut the following things from the P2, or we will take in turn to punch you in the guts.
Neon, huge battery, precise touch screen, great built-in sound card and amplifier, all the buttons (you may change the power button, I am not a fan of it), twin card extension slot (SD or micro SD are both fine for me).
And, for the love of chicken wing riddled chimps, give us HDMI ports.
@xiongxioi
I never thought of the nubs as 'tits' before and now I can't get it out of my mind.
I'm glad that someone got that joke. :blink:
bismuthdrummer
Active Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
- Messages
- 534
False, and nothing you said properly addresses the question at hand. Craig's position has repeatedly been bleeding edge, and people want a reasonable answer as to why.
The question is, "What is the point of having top of the chart processing power?"
Craig answers, "People like new things. The Pandora 1 is there if you don't want the Pandora 2."
If you don't see the cognitive disconnect between the question and his answers, I don't know how to lay it out any clearer...
ED just stated that the SoC isn't a likely candidate for price savings anyway. So what specifications (precise aspects of the board or modular components) are we debating if he is right? Or is he wrong/off-mark?
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It's easy. Bleeding edge and top of the chart don't mean the same thing. The post you linked from Craigix said the best handheld. There is where your cognitive dissonance lies. Until we know the specs we can relax. Back in the day exophase wondered who would buy a low powered ben nanonote. I hadn't hear of it until today when I read a suggestion by Binky. I'M the person that would use a low powered device like that even though it now cost $150 instead of $100. For one it is a palm computer that fits in my pocket that I can hack the hell out of and connect to my arduinos. I can even add wifi via several methods if I choose (microSD certain hacks etc ). I'm also bidding on a zipit z2 right now (maybe I can get it for $25 dollars or so). So I can actually appreciate the sentiment that you don't need super specs when you're targetting a niche market.
The old GP boards couldn't stand the device so I must be super niche. The point is that you can niche yourself out of a market altogether if you aren't careful. Being the best handheld does not require having the leetest specs. That OCS1 was first shown in 2009 for example. Why? Because people like new things. Did you look at the specs?
When you claim I'm false you just turn around and prove me right. How did you not understand the point of having top of the chart processing power when Ed already said a high end SoC is not the issue? Where did you see that Craigix is going to uberomfg spec every single component in the device? OMG a 5 inch screen with nice resolution in 2013 or 2014 well that's just out of the question!! We'll have none of that non-niche shenanigans here buddy!
Oh wait he only said it's going to be as good as it can be. Better put my pitchforks down.
Wait! Unless he meant as good as can be all sense, reasoning, and economic concerns aside! Raise pitchforks! Full orthogonality!!
Oh but the screen is one part that can't be changed so it would make sense to have a nice screen that everyone else during that time frame will be using anyway. Hence availability with workable pricing. Pitchfork down...45 degrees..
This is wild and coincidental but earlier I did some talk on custom SD's. Outsourcing graphix etc. Look what I found!
Since I cancelled both Pandora orders and extras, I'm buying two of these instead. They're orgasmically underpowered! No seriously I think they're pretty neat. I missed the hardware support era though as tuxbrain no longer sells ardunote supplies. Guess I'll have to make my own. Fun times lay ahead!!
xiongxioi I agree that the team doesn't need to get into an arms race with the most uberest of everything. I never implied that they should. I'm saying if you're not in the race you should at least have your eyes on the track. The problem is that there are no targeted goals presented so it's hard to complain about something that hasn't been mentioned definitively yet. Making a respectable device does not require that every single component be bleeding edge. If it is decided to go the bleeding edge route lets look at the specs, facts, and reasoning behind those decisions before we get our nubs all twisted.
The old GP boards couldn't stand the device so I must be super niche. The point is that you can niche yourself out of a market altogether if you aren't careful. Being the best handheld does not require having the leetest specs. That OCS1 was first shown in 2009 for example. Why? Because people like new things. Did you look at the specs?
When you claim I'm false you just turn around and prove me right. How did you not understand the point of having top of the chart processing power when Ed already said a high end SoC is not the issue? Where did you see that Craigix is going to uberomfg spec every single component in the device? OMG a 5 inch screen with nice resolution in 2013 or 2014 well that's just out of the question!! We'll have none of that non-niche shenanigans here buddy!
Oh wait he only said it's going to be as good as it can be. Better put my pitchforks down.
Wait! Unless he meant as good as can be all sense, reasoning, and economic concerns aside! Raise pitchforks! Full orthogonality!!
Oh but the screen is one part that can't be changed so it would make sense to have a nice screen that everyone else during that time frame will be using anyway. Hence availability with workable pricing. Pitchfork down...45 degrees..
This is wild and coincidental but earlier I did some talk on custom SD's. Outsourcing graphix etc. Look what I found!
It's like the past read my mind today, but in the past which was their future.......NanoNote Personalities Program
Language:
English 中文(台灣) • 中文(简体)
NanoNote Personalities Program[1]
The NanoNote should offer different "spins" offering different types of functionality, aka "personalities".
Example personalities:
- graphing calculator
- electronic spelling dictionary / translator
- travel buddy (wikitravel / openstreetmap)
- puzzle games
- beginner programming languages (python, pascal, etc)
- PDA
- Gutenberg ebooks reader
- VOIP phone
Every personality would be available both as a downloadable image and preinstalled on SD cards sold as NN accessories. Every SD card would have a custom sticker to show at a glance which personality is installed on it. There would be a little case or slipcover for the NN that would include a little compartment for an SD collection.
Company responsibilities:
- Pay an artist to work with personality development teams on a splashscreen + tiny SD sticker art for each team
- Pay good tech writers to develop user guides for each personality; bonus points for paying tech writers to help out on developer docs!!
- Provide hosting for personality development teams, but also support mirroring of install images for teams that want to use their own server
- Hire knowledgable and good-tempered customer support engineers willing to shield developers from grumpy customers and customers from grumpy developers
- Handle retail of the pre-installed SDs, including the custom stickers for branding (also offer stickers separately for those who want to download images to already-owned SD)
- Offer to donate some portion of pre-installed SD / sticker profit to project designated by leaders of corresponding dev team
Developer team responsibilities:
Most of the personalities would use the openwrt base, but some of the ones intended for hacking might slap the NN kernel into another embedded distro, e.g. a gentoo embedded experiment (gentoo has mips support).
- Work with artist to come up with custom splashscreen and SD sticker art
- Make sure the official splashscreen for the personality gets displayed at boot
- Answer questions from tech writer regarding user guide
[1] "program" in the sense of "something you can participate in", not in the sense of "code a computer executes"
p.s. Stephanie Lockwood-Childs, leader of Santa Barbara Linux Group, is author of NanoNote Personalities Program:
Since I cancelled both Pandora orders and extras, I'm buying two of these instead. They're orgasmically underpowered! No seriously I think they're pretty neat. I missed the hardware support era though as tuxbrain no longer sells ardunote supplies. Guess I'll have to make my own. Fun times lay ahead!!
xiongxioi I agree that the team doesn't need to get into an arms race with the most uberest of everything. I never implied that they should. I'm saying if you're not in the race you should at least have your eyes on the track. The problem is that there are no targeted goals presented so it's hard to complain about something that hasn't been mentioned definitively yet. Making a respectable device does not require that every single component be bleeding edge. If it is decided to go the bleeding edge route lets look at the specs, facts, and reasoning behind those decisions before we get our nubs all twisted.
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RE:
The question is, "What is the point of having top of the chart processing power?"
This directly addresses the question bismuth
/thread
The question is, "What is the point of having top of the chart processing power?"
This directly addresses the question bismuth
/thread
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There are quite a few examples of more raw processing power doesn't mean much of anything.
For example, those quad-core processors, on most occasions, they are not much better than duel-core ones. Sure, they can supplement Android's lack of efficiency and may make capacitive touch screen less a hit.
However, they use more power even in idle, they are generally more expensive, and many programs aren't optimized for multi-core processing. They are just not suited for linux and retro-gaming.
Even GPUs and DSPs are kinda useless, through they sounds awesome and pro on paper and in press-releases.
Cutting these corners may as well make the pandora 2 more affordable, make them less complicated to produce and having longer battery time.
With that being said, I'm fine with better screens. Even 1080p isn't much better than 720p in a rational sense, they looks much sharper, they make you feel good about the hard earned bucks you spent, they provide users with overall better experiences. Better screen can certainly be used if done right. This is a part I'm with craigix, but I can't help but feeling weird that we are doing the exact opposite: customers are always the demanding ones whereas the producers are always the cynical and mean ones. This is just the charm of the indie spirit I guess. I think at the end of the day, this shows that us as members of this community are just as invested as the OPT.
bismuthdrummer
Active Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
- Messages
- 534
LOL. *facepalm* I told you about ED's post. And yet you posted it back to me... that's very dense of you, thank you. And his statement doesn't answer the question, "Why?" to Craigix's lust for high specs. If the A15 were such a given then Craig could have said so, but he didn't.
Nice trolling, but my use of the term "bleeding edge" is irrelevant to whether Craigix answered the question, which he did not. Craig keeps saying best handheld, which to most people implies top of the chart specs, this thread is asking why, and he didn't give a reason or denial in his reply. Please don't speak of cognition, you are sorely lacking it right now.
Now if you had read a little more on that link I posted, Craig indeed does want to have bleeding edge specs:
... and says things like:
And people want to know why. "My way or the highway", to paraphrase, isn't exactly a fulfilling answer to most people.
I think the goal here is to have an open discussion about balanced choices for the P2, but of course Craig insists on "nothing but the best" to paraphrase him again, and ED's voice of reason calms the audience a bit.
So... feel free to reinterpret Craigix's words, maybe it will allay some people's concerns about what they will be offered versus the price it will cost. But please stop interpreting mine, you really do seem to have a hard time with comprehension (again, for whatever reason, could be my own bad wording for all I can tell).
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This is the problem. Best is subjective. I want the P2 to be the best possible, but that's my version of best.
Obviously, making the P2 to exactly the specs I want is unreasonable - it should be what the community, customers, and potential buyers want, right?
This also applies to what the team want. No individual member of the team should be able to push a list of hardware feature he happens to like.
As I see it, Craig is pushing for what new/potential owners want, ED is pushing for what hardcore geeks want, and we (the community) are somewhere in the middle
Craig can make highly assertive hints,
ED can make reassuring (but more uncertain) statements about what he would like,
The rest of the team is silent
The community can yell itself hoarse in thread such as this one, but no-one seems to really be listening to each other or anyone else
The above is a very rough summary of each point. If anyone has any corrections or additions to make, feel free to make them to this image, ask me, or ask for the .ods file.
If anyone has been misrepresented (I hope they havn't), I am happy to fix any incorrect bits of the table
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Binky that is a most EXCELENT summary and adds greatly to the discussion! Thank you for doing that. I would add that you added a little flavor to what Craigix "stated" however. Looking at it the only areas of disagreement appear to be size and use of microSD so I'm not sure where the problem is.
Bismouth you can't use bleeding edge as your argument and support it by a link to what Craigix said then turn around and say it's not relevant. You just can't do that. I'm not trolling because I show that the topic question to this thread that you quoted has been answered. Why ask it if the question has been answered. Why talk about others cognition if you've answered your own question. For you it's easy to do because you keep moving the goal post. Now all of a sudden the thread is about Craigix's refusal to answer questions about how he's looking at specs. Awhile ago you chastised me for not reading the whole thread. Well how about YOU read the whole thread because he answered your question if you would bother to read it.
He even answered you directly!
And
And
You are surprised somehow by this answer when he already qualified why in the thread you linked? Is the fact that people like new things somehow irrelevant when he's talking about the future and not the past?
If you don't think we need a high end SoC argue that point as xiongxio has. His arguement is pretty good. I suspect the answer is because Craigix is looking years in advance and wants to have the best handheld on the market. Illustrate how that can be done without the newest SoC. Typically people look at things like processing power, gpu, ram etc when buying new PC's. The same applies here. If you, Ed, and Craigix can agree that the best SoC doesn't really add much to cost, what is your gripe really about? Craigix has shown there will be no reduction in battery life for instance.
Bismouth you can't use bleeding edge as your argument and support it by a link to what Craigix said then turn around and say it's not relevant. You just can't do that. I'm not trolling because I show that the topic question to this thread that you quoted has been answered. Why ask it if the question has been answered. Why talk about others cognition if you've answered your own question. For you it's easy to do because you keep moving the goal post. Now all of a sudden the thread is about Craigix's refusal to answer questions about how he's looking at specs. Awhile ago you chastised me for not reading the whole thread. Well how about YOU read the whole thread because he answered your question if you would bother to read it.
He even answered you directly!
And
And
You are surprised somehow by this answer when he already qualified why in the thread you linked? Is the fact that people like new things somehow irrelevant when he's talking about the future and not the past?
If you don't think we need a high end SoC argue that point as xiongxio has. His arguement is pretty good. I suspect the answer is because Craigix is looking years in advance and wants to have the best handheld on the market. Illustrate how that can be done without the newest SoC. Typically people look at things like processing power, gpu, ram etc when buying new PC's. The same applies here. If you, Ed, and Craigix can agree that the best SoC doesn't really add much to cost, what is your gripe really about? Craigix has shown there will be no reduction in battery life for instance.
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:unsure: so I did.
New version, with content from the 'what we know so far' :
---
The idea of a universal dev board is pretty cool though, when I think about it
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craigix
Mega GP Mania
Thanks Overgauss, you just saved me a lot of typing and time
That post can be my answer to everything P2 related from now on.
That post can be my answer to everything P2 related from now on.
If OPT --- as a full team --- make a Pandora 2 then I trust them to make a device with the right specs. Some of these threads almost seem to be trying to over-exaggerate the difference of opinion between ED and Craig for the sake of drama rather than a bit of good natured speculation. Its not called the spam folder for nowt.
This is a recurring theme. No one on here is obliged to answer your or anyone else's questions in the exact manner you demand, so I suggest you don't get righteous about the lack of answers.
This is a recurring theme. No one on here is obliged to answer your or anyone else's questions in the exact manner you demand, so I suggest you don't get righteous about the lack of answers.
fusion_power
Advanced Member
Just let the community decide how the P2 should be, part for part. So if something goes wrong at the end, nobody can blame OP-Team but only himself.
iprice
Certified Guru
From what I've seen lately the community is tearing itself apart piece by pieceJust let the community decide how the P2 should be, part for part. So if something goes wrong at the end, nobody can blame OP-Team but only himself.
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