I Have Resigned

[moxie]

You are a mod, aren't you?


[...]


Did you post in the mod forum, asking for help?


Edit: As you stated it yourself in one of your latest posts:


You cannot expect everyone to just agree your opinions. Everyone has his own opinions. Don't be pissed off directly if they don't like yours.


Compromises need to be made.

Let's just say, without starting a big ugly mod fight in plain sight, that there were differing opinions amongst the mod team about what constitutes harassment, what is reasonable grounds for censoring/punishing someone, and exactly how much of the responsibility that lay on each part in this particular case. People were asked, politely and not so politely respectively, to knock it off. Several other methods of disarming the situation was put forward. But, as you say, that means compromises needs to be made.

 

[Kumaki]

Again...I saw not one shred of support...not one shred of anyone publicly or otherwise...asking anyone to knock it off, and just leave me alone.

More than what was actually said, the total lack of any support or sympathy...is what hurts.

As someone said to me privately...

"If you fill your front garden with petrol and gunpowder...is it the fault of the guy who flicks a cigarette butt your way when the whole row of houses burns down?"

This is indicative of the attitude I am referring to.

My respnse to this was

"FIRST you prevent the guy from flicking more cigarette butts. THEN...if you want to, you berate or otherwise deal with the guy with the petrol and gunpowder in his front garden." But you FIRST prevent more cvigarette butts from being flicked.

This did not happen in this case.

 

[b_o_b]

Personally I didn't like the behaviour of either of the parties involved. I think overreacting is not a good thing, and certainly not for a mod what happened in this case. Worse than that is posh behaviour and smugness that caused her to overreact. IMO that was the worst of two evils. Another mod could have prevented this by closing the thread as soon as it escalated. Closing threads is really effective. Then talk to the members involved through PM or IRC. 

 

[PowerGod]

I don't know, I don't like very much when a thread is closed before it finished it's course, and it was about GTA... it should be better to just move the OTs in the OffTopic sections, just this will minimize their visibility

 

[moxie]

What do you think you are gaining by doing this, Kumaki? What cause are you trying to benefit by going another round of blame-everybody-else?

In order to get support, one must accept the support that is given. You didn't. We have tried and tried, time and time again. You would have nothing of it as long as we didn't do exactly what you wanted, which was "make SURE that I NEVER NEVER have to SEE HIM AGAIN!!!". Which is completely impossible, on an open forum, as long as we don't either ban him or you. Even the ignore list didn't help (once we managed to get that idea through to you), since you were still convinced that someone was after you, and this time they were "following you through the threads" without you even seeing them, apparently. Now, I am kinda sorta quoting from our internal discussions, and I don't like that, but you did it before me. And there is more there, you know, so if you really want to go to the bottom of this perceived lack of support, we could just bring some of those discussions out in the open, and let others be the judge?

Should we have closed threads? Well, we did. There are large swathes of thread that I've hidden because they degenerated into overemotional screaming. Should we have "talked to the members"? Well, we did. Time after time. But for that to work, that means both parties need to cooperate and try to do something to help. And that is not working when one part "will take anything that is more than a hello as offensive" and will take any appearance of the other as a reason to start it all over again. That last thread with the EasyRPG stuff, I just let continue, since it apparently didn't help neither closing nor talking.

Nobody has, as you say here "laughed at you" or "enjoyed watching you being thrown to the wolves" or whatever it was you wrote on the previous page. We are all truly sad that it has gone this far. And here you are at it again, pointing out imagined enemies and conspirations that are somehow out to get you, all the time. I cannot, and noone else can, put a stop to the things that you imagine other people thinking or doing.

So, once again: Just stop it. You are doing nothing else but making yourself out as a laughing stock. 

 

[Exophase]

Yeah I don't know, maybe the whole "why didn't anyone support me?" thing isn't directed to everyone but if it is all I can really say is this: People didn't support you because they don't like getting involved in personal conflicts. That doesn't necessarily mean everyone stands behind everything your opponent is saying. It means they don't want to throw oil on a raging fire because most people who come on these forums don't do it for the forum drama.

In the past forum people have said really offensive things to me, way worse than anything anyone said to you here.. and I know I've felt, man, I wish someone would tell this person they crossed a line. But that's an emotional response and if I thought it through I'd know there's a good reason why people shouldn't do that. And they rarely did. At best I'd get a friendly PM from someone saying "just ignore that guy." You've more or less got to fight your own battles here, although people would probably prefer the battle fighting was kept to a minimum all around.

And if you end up flying off the deep end and focusing a lot of energy on making an argument for how much you're the victim and how much you need help it's going to look a lot worse in everyone's eyes. Even if it was clearly someone else who started it. People don't like it when someone demands that kind of attention to themselves and blows things way out of proportion. I've seen this sort of thing happen a lot as a child, those kids seemed to just beg for more and more negative attention... (and I have no doubt I was one of those kids at some point in some circumstances, even if I didn't realize it). I have this expectation that adults would have learned the futility of it and not put so much investment in it. I know it can feel bad to just let something go and stop investing time in it, like you feel like you've been walked all over and are letting bad things happen, but you should bear it because in the long run you'll feel better. Just don't engage.

 

[Franko]

I don't know, I don't like very much when a thread is closed before it finished it's course, and it was about GTA... it should be better to just move the OTs in the OffTopic sections, just this will minimize their visibility

I agree with PowerGod, prematurely closing a thread doesn't accomplish much - very little is learned - no problems are solved.  Branching off "argumentative threads" or just plain deleting non-productive posts are useful tools of Moderating.  I watched Hailrazer do decent work in that regard recently (on the Official News/recent Craig survey thread).  That's how to handle things, IMO.  Posters sometimes get angry and lash out - it's human nature...but the message gets lost when a bunch of people get the "mob mentality".


I'm not going to get into the other stuff.  Seems like Kumaki has decided to not remain a Moderator.  She tried, and did a decent job IMO - she didn't fabricate events, nor power-trip...believe me, I've seen worse.  No abuses, she just wanted to help out is what I'm reading.


Sooooo, let's all go forward from here and learn from things and try to help out each other.

 

[Kumaki]

Once again, I am pointing out how you and the rest of the Mods failed to do anything to make it stop. The one thing that might have made a difference was a public statement in the thread from one of the Mods:

"Not taking any sides here...but the dogpiling has gone on long enough...please leave her alone."

A public statement from a Mod...showing some support - and telling the rest of the folks to quit dogpiling...would have gone MILES towards resolving the situation.

As it WAS handled, I felt that my feelings were totally ignored. I felt that you all Mods APPROVED of the behavior of those ripping me apart, since you never once spoke up publicly to put a stop to it.

Try looking at it from my side, won't you?

JUST BECAUSE someone is not "per se" violating the rules...they sure as hell can be violating the spirit and intent of the rules.

NOBODY should have to go thru the constant needling and picking that I was going thru. A stop should have been put to it and it wasn't.

End of story.

No matter who was right or who was wrong - a stop should have been put to it, and it wasn't. That is all that is important.

 

[Kumaki]

Yeah I don't know, maybe the whole "why didn't anyone support me?" thing isn't directed to everyone but if it is all I can really say is this: People didn't support you because they don't like getting involved in personal conflicts. That doesn't necessarily mean everyone stands behind everything your opponent is saying. It means they don't want to throw oil on a raging fire because most people who come on these forums don't do it for the forum drama.

As far as I am concerned...if you do not speak out against cruel treatment of another person...THEN YOU TACITLY SUPPORT IT. Period.
This illustrates the point I am trying to make...

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[moxie]

No, you are pointing out that we didn't do exactly what you would have wanted to make it stop. We tried plenty other things. We also explained very thoroughly why the things you wanted was not very feasible. And no, that was not only to "make a public statement" -  that is a very late, uhm, reconstruction of facts, from you.

 

[PowerGod]

... or just plain deleting non-productive posts ...

I don't like even this, those should be put in another thread if them are not in line with the discussion... I think that deleting should be used ONLY to remove illegal, racists or very heavy strong languages posts, as a last resort...
Some of my posts were deleted in the last Craig thread and I hated it, I mean it was my fault to post my thoughts there in the first time, I didn't read the "Hailrazer rules" ok, but them weren't at all against the forum rules, so the mods should have moved them somewhere else instead of deleting them...

 

[b_o_b]

I am a member of other forums too and I am pretty sure this kind of behaviour would not have happened in those. Lets face it, for someone just trying to get some Pandora info threads like this or the situation with Craig are not good publicity. You don't solve problems by letting people get into each others hair. This isn't real life and things can escalate real easy. 

That is why I like to see threads closed or split sooner. That is also why the thread with Craig stayed on topic : active moderation. Warn people and then close or accept a mess and drama. I agree this shouldn't be done lightly, but if someone is upset like Kumaki was that should certainly be a reason to take action. 

 

[Franko]

... or just plain deleting non-productive posts ...

I don't like even this, those should be put in another thread if them are not in line with the discussion... I think that deleting should be used ONLY to remove illegal, racists or very heavy strong languages posts, as a last resort...

Some of my posts were deleted in the last Craig thread and I hated it, I mean it was my fault to post my thoughts there in the first time, I didn't read the "Hailrazer rules" ok, but them weren't at all against the forum rules, so the mods should have moved them somewhere else instead of deleting them...

I wasn't even thinking of you as an example..LOL..but as you already alluded to - there does exist a reason within your own mind for the removal of posts ("to remove illegal, racists or very heavy strong languages posts").  Sooo, there is an estabclished reason, and looking at the Forum "bylaws"...that language is long and fairly open-ended...


If I might have had one of my posts removed by a Mod or had gotten a dreaded warning point, I wouldn't care...  Maybe because our own physical lives are far more important than what some yahoo does or says to me on a screen from another state/country... Who cares this much?  Just try to learn, and love and give to one another...this is all so silly.  This forum is supposed to be a conduit and meeting place where we all can interact and learn about this incredible, pocketable device.  Any other benefits are "gravy"...and there's no reason (IMO) to take away any form of hate or disappointment unless you can say that you've tried every possibility given to you.


Edit 1:  edited for clarity

 

[vcoleiro1]

I think the thing to remember out of all this is that we must remember when posting here on the forum to be civil.  A lot has improved over the years from the screaming nonsense that were forum posts in the past.  But there is still a little way to go.

Just be mindful of peoples feelings and remember you can express your points without getting personal or by making degrading or pointed remarks.

 

[milkshake]

Ok this is getting messy now, the truth of the matter is:

This is the Internet don't let anything or anyone get to you, I know it's not easy but they can't really hurt you with whatever they say it do unless you let them.

If someone posts something you don't like just ignore it.

Getting all emotional is the wrong thing to do, it doesn't help you and it often looks like attention seeking which as we all know when kids do it is just annoying.

Kumaki the easiest thing to do is just let it go, It doesn't mean you lost the war or anything like that, it just means your the better man/woman who knows when to quit.

 

[PowerGod]

there does exist a reason within your own mind for the removal of posts ("to remove illegal, racists or very heavy strong languages posts").  Sooo, there is an estabclished reason, and looking at the Forum "bylaws"...that language is long and fairly open-ended...

...now that I think of it better, deleting is always bad...  -_-

Anyway it's not that I consider a deleted post or a warning point an attack to myself and it is not an issue at all for my life, it's just that if I use my time to post something and then it disappear, I can loose the will to post anything else, in whatever context... 

 

[Exophase]

As far as I am concerned...if you do not speak out against cruel treatment of another person...THEN YOU TACITLY SUPPORT IT. Period.

This illustrates the point I am trying to make...

Well I guess first other people have to actually agree that there was cruelty taking place. How can people have all this empathy over something which would generally not bother them like it has bothered you?
Bringing up the old the old "they came for the X" cliche doesn't help your case. It's one of those originally good sayings whose impact was diluted through so many misuses. Generally by people who want to guilt people into their cause. I think the first time I ever heard was from an FSF activist. It also has the consequence of pretty much Godwining the discussion.

You weren't done in by cruelty and injustice, you got in a tiff over some criticism from people on forums and blew it way out of proportion. No one forced you into anything or stripped you of your freedoms. You had the power to deal with the situation. Get over it. You did your fair part in escalating it at every step.

 

[aatu]

(hmm, similar stuff already said, but let me add something)

@Kumaki:
Sorry to be blunt, but I'm like that sometimes. And sometimes things need to be said, in any case. So here goes:

You are a little too emotional/short-tempered to be a mod. Not saying you've done a bad job with regards to moderation itself, as I don't that actively read the forums, so I haven't even paid that much attention to any moderation by anyone.

Personally, I haven't witnessed the "shouting" some people have complained about. If your first post in the EasyRPG thread is not edited, then I don't see the problem some people had with it, as I don't see it in any way being excessive. BUT: as a mod, you need to uphold a certain degree of calmness and professionalism. And openly venting in frustration about your experience with regards to a problem is not a good way of showing it.

Furthermore, you shouldn't let people's actions get under your skin. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind watching people argue in the threads, a small drama is nice every once in a while. But I don't think it's appropriate if the other party is a mod. A mod needs to take matters in an unbiased and neutral manner, and deal with problems swiftly and confidently (see next).

Regarding other mods letting the situation evolve to the extreme:
Maybe they didn't want to intervene (though ultimately did), because you AS A MOD should have been capable of handling it by yourself? The other mods don't need "saving", they can and will handle the situation by themselves. Like a mod should. A mod (or any other position of leadership/authority) should strive to be an unconditional figure of respect. If you don't show confidence in this or if you act unprofessionally, there will eventually be a "power struggle", like the one you witnessed first-hand.

On the contrary, I don't think the first priority of the other mods would have been to come DEFEND you. It would have been to send you a message telling you to handle the situation like a mod should. And if this didn't help, only then moderate the thread by themselves (your posts included). I'd reckon they gave more support than the rest of us would have given.

... Other than that, I think you're OK. And don't be too hard on yourself. Lurk around for a while, it will get better.

Ps. Okay, some parts are slightly exaggerated and contain a little bit of sensationalism, but I think everyone got the idea...

 

[Franko]

there does exist a reason within your own mind for the removal of posts ("to remove illegal, racists or very heavy strong languages posts").  Sooo, there is an estabclished reason, and looking at the Forum "bylaws"...that language is long and fairly open-ended...

...now that I think of it better, deleting is always bad...  -_-

Anyway it's not that I consider a deleted post or a warning point an attack to myself and it is not an issue at all for my life, it's just that if I use my time to post something and then it disappear, I can loose the will to post anything else, in whatever context... 

I'm a freedom of speech guy (and a George Carlin fan - RIP), so I might be interpreting you accurately - I hope so anyway.  Most forum websites have Moderators though.  It's not like we both can't contain ourselves and act civil...but you seem to have changed your position twice now...ha ha.  One wonders if you were a pilot and you were staunchly for the right of passengers to yell "bomb" on your airplane...where does it (censorship) start and end?

BTW, I fully endorse ANY Moderator to delete any of my posts for any reason.  I'll just find something else to do.   :rolleyes:


Edit 1:  Please don't take anything that I say as an adversarial standpoint - I personally enjoy the dialogue and unique viewpoints.  I'm not taking any "sides", and civil discussion is always beneficial in my viewpoint.  I'm (always) trying to learn.

 

[DaMummy]

while you keep blaming other mods for not getting the situation under control, maybe you should put the blame partly on yourself for throwing gas onto the flame to escalate the problem, which you were constantly doing imho.

and as far as nobody jumping in to your aid, if it makes you feel any better, ive had posts deleted which were mostly made just to aggrivate you even more for the most part, and while i still stand by my statements, mods have every right to jump in and keep a situation under control. and while i may be a minority in this, i still believe you should step down as a mod, but are more to welcome to stay as a member