How will the Pandora 2 differentiate itself from the market ?

[klapse]

I thought I qualified my statement plenty with observations and arguments I am willing to debate out, but instead you simply redefined the discussion when I already understood. I said "generally", implying that there are cases where unique features become a mass market demand. But we aren't discussing a purely niche market like the P1, as the OP can certainly correct me if I am wrong on this.

I apologize if I interpreted your statement in a way you did not intend. "Ferraris are hard to sell" is what it read like to me, when you actually intended "Ferraris are hard to sell to the masses."


But the P2 will never be a mass market device (defining mass market as "hundreds of thousands of units sold"). Why? There is no big company ready to produce those numbers of units. There isn't a million dollar marketing campaign. There are no established retail channels. I worked in computer distribution for years and know a little about the subject.


There isnt a mass market potential that differentiation moves us away from.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

There isnt a mass market potential that differentiation moves us away from.

I see your argument now, and I agree in part. Sorry if I came off as stern, it's a bit of a reflex from the recent debates I've had...


If the price stays in the $500-$700 range, I don't see how I can disagree with you actually. There are spectrums of devices out there, but the cost of the Pandora truly is beyond reach of the average consumer, who likely already has a smartphone if they can afford one (Craig has made the argument that smartphones cost the same amount or more). Not that the smartphone is a replacement or even a direct competitor, but solely the fact that they already spent hundreds of dollars on a handheld device obviously makes it unlikely they'll be interested in another one, no matter how different.


If the Pandora were somehow in the $200 - $300 range at most, I could see things like Kickstarter helping with the marketing and funding. If you get enough initial pitches, you could probably find a production company to meet the demand, no?

Meaning, we should be aiming at all the people who are unhappy with the current offings in their favourite field of consumer electronics.

Wouldn't it be cool if we could bring Linux as an open OS to the average user, if our handheld were a bit more within reach pricewise? Maybe that's a total pipe dream...

 

[Klumpen]

Maybe it should just be an upgrade of the Pandora1 regarding design/hardwarepower/wifi/keyboard and not be altered too much.


Most of the owners like the Pandora as it is and just want more power in the end...


I even wouldn't change the two sd-slots, maybe just use (upgradable) microSD instead of the NAND if possible.


It's a great niche product already.

 

[thatgui]

oh dear this will get lengthy

Now onto my favorite arch-nemesis (meant in a jovial and friendly fashion. We go back aways)

ahh, stop the flattering

Right but I was responding to the part where you said they had little to do with the Pandy:


....


So I'm saying these can be mini laptops much like the Pandora. They are pocketable and have much of the functionality of a Pandora lacking of course a few hardware options. I'm surprised I wasn't taken to task for listing the Pixi, although I was prepared for it. Interestingly enough someone from these boards has a gentoo-linux port for the device!

It still makes no sense to me as they all lack (at least I hope so, did not do in depth reasearch on every device mentioned) the things that could matter in this discussion: gaming controls (shoulder buttons and nubs take up a lot of space), immense battery, dedicated audio hardware, very potent hardware, etc.

Oh I fully agree about the definition of functionality issue. I see it like this. Functionality and convenience are related but two separate things. My external USB drive cabelling uses mini A USB (iirc) on one side and standard USB on the other to connect to the computer. The ability or functionality of external storage hasn't changed but the convenience may have arguably changed for some as they would consider the cable I described an adapter cable. For most this isn't a problem with external HDDs but suddenly with the Pandora it's a huge "functionality" issue. For me it's a convenience issue that isn't inconvenient for me personally, but is obviously important to most of you.

This is a matter of term definition, but in this case having not the possibility of connecting things directly could also mean a los of functionality as not all adapters are suiteable for all cases.

2nd edit: I'm not sure where the android hate comes from.... That way you still "differentiate" yourselves from the droves of android noob drones that would otherwise destroy the coolness of your niche device stuck in 2008.

I don't know either, everyone here has nothing against Android - some - as me - are just indifferent about it. There was a wave of dissaproval some time back as one of craigs statements was misinterpreted as "P2 - Android only", but after that was corrected, I can't remember anyone complaining about it again.


I mentioned Android in terms of: will probably not tip the scale in a possible buyers decision.


I don't buy devices because their "cool", I buy them because their functional, I honestly don't care much about the rest of the world.


Regarding "device stuck in 2008": not everything that is new is automatically better, nor does the better technology always turn out to be te successfull one.


Regarding your spoiler:


So what ? I never was on the "full sd will always offer bigger capacities / are cheaper" train (and your 4 mSDCards - Idea, won't work as the SoC won't have enough interfaces to connect them to it). Also not every manufacturer is concentrating on MicroSD Cards - there are still a lot of digital cameras, notebooks, audio equipment, gaming consoles, etc. that have a full sd slot, and I see no indication that this will change soon.


And speaking of loosing functionality: Doing file manipulations over an external device ?? On more then one occasion I took my Pandora with me on vacation (doing picture files movement SD<->SD/USB) with no other devices in range. How should I accomplish that in the future ? I guess the non-convenient way - take a seond device with me ?

Good points and I won't speculate but this is what Craigix has said in the past.


.....


The P2 will be slimmer anyway, several tricks have been learnt from the P1.

Thats why I am all about => "making it thinner will lead to cutting down on features". Maybe I'm wrong (which happens quite often) but unless craig can pull out some heavy magic out of his wodka bottles, I fear I won't be this time. Maybe Exophase can enlighten me a little

Thatgui can clarify, but as I understand he was humoring Craig's stance on making the P2 more attractive (by making it smaller, taking on Android, etc.) while asking how we could still set ourselves apart from the masses.

that is exactly what I hand in mind (in a "know your foe" manner B) )

And if we're taking a mass market direction, certain features that would set us apart become difficult to market. The Pandora 1 is an objectively poor example of a mass market device.

My unfounded/lacking any proof theory is that this is the only way to get a small portion of market. To differentiate the P2 enough from the market to draw some attention to it, and don't get drawn into competition with the markets top dogs.

Wouldn't it be cool if we could bring Linux as an open OS to the average user, if our handheld were a bit more within reach pricewise? Maybe that's a total pipe dream...

I know this sounds selfish and a bit "eliteist" but looking at the comments applications/games get on the android market im not sure I want this to happen (in a Pandora context)

 

[overgauss]

Thatgui the meta point I was making was that sleek does not equal cellphone. I then listed several small form-factor and quite pocketable devices that run linux, have good audio, some of which with 600mhz ArmV7 chips oc'able to 806 mhz. Nothing to sneeze at power wise. I wasn't saying these are a replacement for the pandora for obvious reasons and only stated that they were more similar to a pandora than you expect because you said they had no relation to a pandora. You even listed a calculator and I was differentiating these palmtops from your calculator. I even qualified my comparison by saying they were lacking in hardware features that the pandy has.


In short. A sleek device does not mean it absolutely has to be a cellphone. That is the entirety of that particular point I was making.


I mentioned android because several people railed against it.


As for vacations if you have a camera bag just put a microSD to SD adapter in your bag. No need for a second device.


As for Craigix' stance it appears that I have been the only one to show any evidence of what his stance may be. If you want to quote him like I asked previously to prove or better assert the issue with evidence, we can have a proper discussion. Otherwise the discussion is fruitless because you all are currently making unsubstantiated claims. Substantiate them. Additionally clarify and specify how a thinner device automagically turns that device into a cellphone and in addition strips it of functionality.


Define the terms you are talking about otherwise everyone will be talking in circles. One will be talking about A while the other will be arguing against the B that he thinks the original personal was talking about. Then the original person has to respecify and clarify his A position while in typical fashion the second person will still argue against the B argument he will continue to hear, even though you spoke clearly enough the second time around.

 

[klapse]

(Craig has made the argument that smartphones cost the same amount or more). Not that the smartphone is a replacement or even a direct competitor, but solely the fact that they already spent hundreds of dollars on a handheld device obviously makes it unlikely they'll be interested in another one, no matter how different.

I think Craig's strategy has some merit: If the P2 also offers a first class Android gaming experience, a good number of Smartphone gamers might be tempted to skip their next $600 phone upgrade, keep their existing phone, and get the P2 instead. This is a different customer than the linux nerd and the retro gaming nerd. It's also a larger group of people, so scoring with a small percentage of them translates into many thousands of units.

Wouldn't it be cool if we could bring Linux as an open OS to the average user, if our handheld were a bit more within reach pricewise? Maybe that's a total pipe dream...

I don't see how that is achievable regardless of price. Look: The last average-user-friendly linux device was the Nokia N9. A lot of work went into Meego to make a finger+noob-friendly UI and providing the toolkits/frameworks needed for developers to develop software conformant to the UI. And two industry heavyweights (Nokia+Intel) failed to grow it into the serious Android competitor it could have become.


A P2 with Angstrom or Slackware linux would ship with a hodgepodge of legacy software inherited from the linux desktop, which IMO takes too much effort for the average (dumb) user to learn. That is the legacy barrier gnu-linux carries with it.


Getting something close to a real linux with a unified UI into the hands of the masses in a portable device is a great subject to debate. No easy answers. Things looked a lot rosier in 2008-2009 with WebOS and Maemo making waves...

 

[Klumpen]

Please just make it operational even without the Battery inserted...


Not being able to use the Pandora stationary (in Bed for example) is a real design flaw.

 

[Grench]

Please just make it operational even without the Battery inserted...


Not being able to use the Pandora stationary (in Bed for example) is a real design flaw.

Ummm - huh???


You can keep the battery in your Pandora and use it anywhere - and you can keep using it even if it's plugged in. I'm not sure where your perceived limitation of not being able to use it - why are you using it without a battery?

 

[WizardStan]

Not to mention an unsupported "feature" is to run it without the battery. If it doesn't work then you've been very unlucky since it works 99% of the time. Hence why it's unsupported, it usually works but wasn't a guaranteed thing; Texas Instruments didn't bother to fix it so they just removed it from the specification of the chip.

 

[Binky]

Not being able to use the Pandora stationary (in Bed for example) is a real design flaw.

I use my pandora stationary (plugged in, charging) frequently. Whats the problem?

 

[Klumpen]

I use my pandora stationary (plugged in, charging) frequently. Whats the problem?

Doesn't this shorten the durability of the battery?


Most of the time i've got my Notebook-battery in the fridge at about 50-75% charge and use it only with cable.

 

[Binky]

Doesn't this shorten the durability of the battery?

I think the battery does a full charge, then slowly discharges to 90%, and trickles back up again like a yoyo.


If you aren't using your pandora, this process will be pretty slow.


Probably not much worse than any other (normal) battery usage

 

[slaeshjag]

Not to mention an unsupported "feature" is to run it without the battery. If it doesn't work then you've been very unlucky since it works 99% of the time. Hence why it's unsupported, it usually works but wasn't a guaranteed thing; Texas Instruments didn't bother to fix it so they just removed it from the specification of the chip.

And since kernel 3.2, it's impossible to boot without a battery inserted.

 

[2bit]

Well I the most important being in the universe ( ) think that it should be as tough as mechanically possible , and have at least one full sd card . Oh and this is the most important : REAL Linux involved in some way including dual booting with Android .

 

[thatgui]

Thatgui the meta point I was making was that sleek does not equal cellphone. I then listed several small form-factor and ...


...


In short. A sleek device does not mean it absolutely has to be a cellphone. That is the entirety of that particular point I was making.

I did get your "meta point" but I don't get why binky is so persistent about it. But whats the point of making these generalizations if we have a special case already at hand ?

I mentioned android because several people railed against it.

Maybe I overlooked them - feel free to swamp me with qoutes.

As for vacations if you have a camera bag just put a microSD to SD adapter in your bag. No need for a second device.

Wasn't your point in the example you gave that the mSDCard should stay in the device ? Also I would prefer not drag an adapter with me around that I'm likely to either forget at home or loose.

As for Craigix' stance it appears that I have been the only one to show any evidence of what his stance may be. If you want

So you qouted his intentions, why do you need another one ?

Define the terms you are talking about otherwise everyone will be talking in circles

Could you be more specific ?

 

[Grench]

I use my pandora stationary (plugged in, charging) frequently. Whats the problem?

Doesn't this shorten the durability of the battery?


Most of the time i've got my Notebook-battery in the fridge at about 50-75% charge and use it only with cable.

Ahh - I get it. You're more worried about preserving your electronics than using them.


USE the Pandora on/off the charger with the battery in it. Two years later when the battery only holds 50% of it's rated capacity, buy a new battery - the batteries are not all that expensive compared to the unit as a whole.

 

[Klumpen]

Ahh - I get it. You're more worried about preserving your electronics than using them.

USE the Pandora on/off the charger with the battery in it. Two years later when the battery only holds 50% of it's rated capacity, buy a new battery - the batteries are not all that expensive compared to the unit as a whole.

Well, at least in Germany we actually DO think a bit about our environment and try to avoid creating more and more (expeccially chemical and electrical) gargage.

 

[Binky]

Of all the ways we damage the environment in daily life, wearing out batteries is not the most critical - nowhere near

 

[3_bit]

I like your ideas, but we must stick with Linux. Maybe at the customization page with the processor and RAM and NAND and stuff we could offer different OSes? What I think we would ALL like is a boot select screen with nice graphics.

 

[Klumpen]

Of all the ways we damage the environment in daily life, wearing out batteries is not the most critical - nowhere near

"It's not the most critical so it doesn't count".... not my way of thinking.