SNESFAN
Retro game fanatic
What exactly do you mean by this?
GPD Win (x86 Computer / Palmtop)
- Thread starter Xcl4m4t10n
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What exactly do you mean by this?
It is similar to this one:
But they added more keys instead of the touchpad and have one row less.
I can imagine the size of the device and therefore the keyboard is based on the PCB design.
What took the longest in the whole Pyra PCB design (a few months, actually) was the little space we have. It certainly wasn't easy getting all the components and needed traces onto our small PCB, making sure no interferences, etc. occur.
The GPD Win has A LOT more space on the PCB. Less USB ports, no huge 4G modem like we have, smaller SoC, etc.
Add to that the additional 1,5cm at the right and top of the device, and you shouldn't have any issues designing the PCB within a short time frame (and we know they did that).
So in order to design the PCB within one month, they probably couldn't make it a lot smaller (as that would've made things more complex) and then they saw that they have the space to put an almost normal keyboard layout into the device.
That's probably where the extra buttons compared to the keyboard above come from
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Surely the lack of 2 full SD slots also makes a very big difference. And the lack of a CPU board.
I hope it's not true that the PCB is locked in place and that this is the keyboard they're definitely shipping with. A little extra space over Pyra/Pandora doesn't justify that keyboard layout in the slightest. Something close to Pyra's layout, possibly with slightly larger keys would be a much better call.
This is the sort of thing that you would think really really needs to be prototyped before finalizing. All of the controls really. Maybe with a bare bones PCB that is only designed to handle input that they can read externally.
WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
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- May 24, 2008
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The Pandora fits snuggly in my normal pockets, any larger and I'd have to exclusively cargo-pants it. I'm concerned about the size of this.
Although to be fair it's only described as "palm top", not "pocketable", so no lie detected.
Although to be fair it's only described as "palm top", not "pocketable", so no lie detected.
vcoleiro1
Hardcore Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2011
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- 4,685
When they initially indicated the size a while ago, I mocked up a cutout based on their layout and size. It wasn't an issue what so ever . All the game controls are in easy reach as are the centre keyboard keys. Each side is 7mm wider, it's not a problem . GPD also showed this on their Chinese forum to their users using their 3D render of the WIN
The only real issue with the KB is the keys are heavily left justified and a bit small, around 7.5mm x 7.3mm. To try to compensate, they have made them domed. Although that doesn't fix the left justification
Some of us on the Dingoonity forum , including myself , provided alternative layouts . Primarily to fix the left justification and key size by moving the right column of keys thus enabling the keyboard to expand into that space. We also strongly wanted L3&R3 to be near the sticks. But unfortunately they didn't change the layout. That said, GPD have now said they recognise the issues we pointed out and will try and address them if they can.
The only real issue with the KB is the keys are heavily left justified and a bit small, around 7.5mm x 7.3mm. To try to compensate, they have made them domed. Although that doesn't fix the left justification
Some of us on the Dingoonity forum , including myself , provided alternative layouts . Primarily to fix the left justification and key size by moving the right column of keys thus enabling the keyboard to expand into that space. We also strongly wanted L3&R3 to be near the sticks. But unfortunately they didn't change the layout. That said, GPD have now said they recognise the issues we pointed out and will try and address them if they can.
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rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
The keyboard being off to the left is one of my biggest concerns from a usability point of view. That, and disabling stuff when switching to mouse mode seem like very poor choice to me, however I am not the one with a bunch of fairly successful gaming handhelds. The same with gaming controls since ED mentioned them. I am pretty sure they will test things at some point, and if not there is always a gaming palmtop designed from the user's perspective.
I'm sure you're right, but would you mind to compare the GPD WIN's case with the Pyra's one?Okay, here is the concern I've got with the keyboard / controls of the GPD:
First, here is a size comparison of the Pandora and the GPD Win (according to the Indiegogo specs):
View attachment 27937
I placed the left edge of the Pandora to the left rounded edge of the GPD, as that is where you hold the device in your hand.
You can clearly see how much further away from the bottom the DPad / Buttons and nubs are.
And seeing the width of the device, you can also see that the middle buttons will probably be harder to reach.
Then I took a Pandora in my hand and tested where my thumbs can reach comfortably.
With comfortably I mean: Holding the device in the palm of my hands, without stretching my fingers too much.
View attachment 27939
If you got your own Pandora, you can check this for yourself. The buttons and DPad are easily reachable for me, for the middle buttons, and the top keys I actually need to lift my palms a bit otherwise I can't easily reach them.
I think I've got pretty normal thumbs, not very long but also not very short. Probably average.
Now, translating that onto the GPD Win would be like this:
View attachment 27940
Again, I've taken the rounded edges of the device into account.
I think 7, I, J and M will be a bit uncomfy to reach.
However, the bigger issue might be the controls: To reach the DPad, Sticks or buttons properly, I cannot hold the device in the palm of my hands. My thumbs won't reach there. I would actually need to hold it somewhere at the sides.
I think some people actually always do that, but I usually hold a handheld at the edges (and reading how many Pandora users complained about the corners, I guess any others do that as well).
The thickness of the device doesn't matter much here - the edge rests in the palm of the hand, regardless of the thickness.
I won't say this will be an issue (I've never held one in my hand, so I can't tell for sure), but I fear that might be the case.
Does someone want to make a cardboard printout and test it?
Here is a last comparison picture:
View attachment 27938
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ZXDunny
Deep avatar
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- Oct 12, 2010
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- 2,585
Sure, can do that later, though the location of the buttons, DPad and nub has not been changed, so I don't expect a huge difference.
If someone already printed it out and tested it, it's fine. It's just one of my concerns - I used a ruler and Pandora case and tried whether I could reach the buttons easily and it didn't work for me.
Might still be different with a real print out though.
This thing is obviously a Pandora/Pyra knockoff and it isn't near as elaborate as Pyra.
The only feature it have that Pyra haven't is a x86 processor but still if Pyra success it will have one too.
And they putted it on indiegogo even if they don't need money so that:
-They can market it as an innovation as the Pandora formfactor is still undiscovered and Pyra isn't yet on crowfunding.
-Even if their knockoff is in early developpement they can sell it before Pyra.
That way they cut the ground from under Pyra's feet and intend to steal Pandora market just before it have a chance to blow up.
If this thing make the Pyra fail there will not be a Pyra with a x86 processor. We will end up with a pathetic knockoff rather than an originale more elaborate handheld, open, upgradable with better quality and genuine care for us customer.
Some of y'all supporting this felony is disgusting.
The only feature it have that Pyra haven't is a x86 processor but still if Pyra success it will have one too.
And they putted it on indiegogo even if they don't need money so that:
-They can market it as an innovation as the Pandora formfactor is still undiscovered and Pyra isn't yet on crowfunding.
-Even if their knockoff is in early developpement they can sell it before Pyra.
That way they cut the ground from under Pyra's feet and intend to steal Pandora market just before it have a chance to blow up.
If this thing make the Pyra fail there will not be a Pyra with a x86 processor. We will end up with a pathetic knockoff rather than an originale more elaborate handheld, open, upgradable with better quality and genuine care for us customer.
Some of y'all supporting this felony is disgusting.
slaeshjag
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they're already making the case moulds by now. They're moving fast.
If ED would see this as serious competition, he probably wouldn't support the company by selling their stuff.
I know what you mean though, they were probably monitoring the OpenPandora before but so did Nvidia with their shield imho. It's rather a compliment that this community obviously had a certain impact on the rather narrow minded world of handhelds, the negative effect is, that those companies gain from the communities experience without them having to invest themselves. Unfortunately that's part of the free market. Sony, Microsoft, etc... would have enough spare change to make some experiments without any danger but they don't like OpenSource anyway and seldomly take risks even if they are small for them and much bigger for the enthusiasts that actually try new stuff.
ED has a customer base with very specific wishes where having exactly what you want is the most important thing (more important than a cheap device for the masses anyway) and I have the feeling ED is doing all this because there simply isn't anything out there that fits the bill for him and many other people especcially in the OpenSource and GNU/Linux scene which this product is obviously NOT aimed at.
There's always a certain intersection though indeed and I hope it won't cost ED too many sales to continue on his path.
Even in the case that I won't get a Pyra in the first 1-2 years (really depends on how my life will change in the next time and there are big changes ahead indeed), I'll probably still support the product simply because it's an awesome initiative and I was the one pushing/nagging for a backlit keyboard and more action buttons from the start anyway. Stuff like this doesn't happen in closed source communities or for companies that make every post/sentence sound like a TV-ad and go with the sex sells motto now and then although I think they are hard working people too.
BTW: Is there a Pyra donation method anywhere atm?
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In the Dragonbox Shop: https://www.dragonbox.de/de/103-spenden
Just checked my pandora and it turned out i could comfortably reach with my thumbs led area at the top and buttons between nubs. I don't think WIN is too big or uncomfortable because it's uncomfortable for ED or someone else, everybody is different.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
How the L/R L2/R2 is set up has a lot to do with how its meant to be held/comfortable.
GPD has made a lot of easier, cheaper handhelds. Helped by having cost to their advantage. All in the things that are not phones category. Where stuff is cheaper.
This is not the same. And it doesnt feel like the same. It feels like the relationship people have to their generic laptop manufacturer.
I think the reason laptops aren't as popular anymore is most people are casual, beyond running windows, which is just cumbersome.
The reason pro devices are popular, is because they are one with what they try to accomplish.
So if you want the customers in any particular field, it has to nail something on the head. Windows as an ecosystem to tie people into isn't compelling anymore.
Phone/PDA/clamshells with keyboards are nearly gone alltogether. They were all quirky, which isn't ok anymore in this day and age. And we moved onto higher expectations.
TL;DR The gp2x/openpandora/pyra keep taking steps, each time its better, but from the ground up.
GPD are leapfrogging to the top and trying to boil that down.
In between those again is my perfect device. Full 2-thumb keyboard. Slightly bigger. Generic so that everyone can use it, since Linux|Gnu has evolved to that state along with everything else.
The pyra is much closer, because the market is flooded with capable hardware that is at most almost good at one particular thing, other than flat screen smartphone/tablet.
GPD has made a lot of easier, cheaper handhelds. Helped by having cost to their advantage. All in the things that are not phones category. Where stuff is cheaper.
This is not the same. And it doesnt feel like the same. It feels like the relationship people have to their generic laptop manufacturer.
I think the reason laptops aren't as popular anymore is most people are casual, beyond running windows, which is just cumbersome.
The reason pro devices are popular, is because they are one with what they try to accomplish.
So if you want the customers in any particular field, it has to nail something on the head. Windows as an ecosystem to tie people into isn't compelling anymore.
Phone/PDA/clamshells with keyboards are nearly gone alltogether. They were all quirky, which isn't ok anymore in this day and age. And we moved onto higher expectations.
TL;DR The gp2x/openpandora/pyra keep taking steps, each time its better, but from the ground up.
GPD are leapfrogging to the top and trying to boil that down.
In between those again is my perfect device. Full 2-thumb keyboard. Slightly bigger. Generic so that everyone can use it, since Linux|Gnu has evolved to that state along with everything else.
The pyra is much closer, because the market is flooded with capable hardware that is at most almost good at one particular thing, other than flat screen smartphone/tablet.
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erico
Advanced Member
I think that is too heavy. The general idea of a small computer is nothing new.
Building a hardware is complex task(as we all know a bit) and even though they both look similar on the outside I´m sure they will be water/fire at their final product form.
As for indiegogo, it is a way to get attention on the west market, cheap propaganda, we all know about that, lots of company do so and I see no problem at a foreign company doing the very same...though I suspect that english is going to kill the campaign for sure.
I see no grounds for competition but a very interesting situation to follow up. I could have use for such system as I had use for an ancient eepc.
No reason to get offensive in my opinion.
fusion_power
Advanced Member
I'm pretty sure, the thickness and the roudned edges (sides and bottom) may have an deeper impact in these calculations than you may think. And of course you hold these devices different if they have a different shape. I have big hands so I may be not the standard, but for me, the GPD WIN case looks pretty sleak and ergonomic. I'm sure the controls are reachable without any issues.
I see room in the keyboard area to have the mentioned gap in the middle, for example, key pattern could be regular like in your example pic so the separator in the middle would be straight. TAB, CAP; SHIFT, etc. buttons could be smaller so the other keys could be put more to the outside.
Something like this for example (quick edit):
P.S.: Don't forget, they have already made mockups of the case and asian people may have smaller hands than we have here (no clichee thinking intended) so if they can use the device comfortably, we should be able to do so too.
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I'll do a mockup and a video myself. Maybe I'm the only one holding the handhelds at the edges where you usually hold them, but if I do that, I can't reach the controls.
Only holding the at the sides, which is uncomfy for me after about 15 minutes.
Only holding the at the sides, which is uncomfy for me after about 15 minutes.
fusion_power
Advanced Member
No clue about various "handheld holding techniques" but my hands are pretty much parallel at the sides when I hold the Pandora. So I can reach the shoulder buttons comfortably and every other button. That's why I'm sure I can hold the GPH WIN comfortably. Pandora still presses the lower corners against my palm but this shouldn't be an issue anymore with the Pyra or even less with this new GPD WIN that has even more rounded edges there.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
If you finger the sides you have less reach than if you claw grip.
