Enhancing desktop; Visuals, tweaks and installed software.

[levi]

And add celery and garlic and you're making a good risotto.


I support _wb_'s idea of an opt-out charger-free option. I wouldn't want one myself as I see it as the environmentally conscious option, and I already have boxes full of various chargers for various devices. Not shipping a charger is aligned with the concept of standardising on micro-USB charging, although I agree that making including a charger the default so that nobody ends up with a device they can't charge is still the right choice at this moment in time.

 

[comradekingu]

For cases of argument, a usb cable _is_ a charger. People without access to AC electricity are just as scarse as people without USB.

The environmentally friendly mindset is what leads me to believe that the pyra itself is better if supplied with wallcharger on an opt-in basis.

The concious action is "when you are buying a pyra you are supporting universal standards, no AC included, because you dont need one. Any one of the ones you have will do. At most it can charge at 2A@5V, all USB ports are 5V, so you will only have to wait longer if your charger or port doesnt fully deliver 2A. <link to wiki with charging and tables of chargetimes)

What should the browser plugins be? Disconnect/adaway and privacy badger?

 

[Grench]

Last i checked the grid had all sorts of different power connectors depending on where you are in the world. USB: always the same.

And a lot of countries have junk grid power, as such, overall, id much rather take my chances with plugging in a USB to a computer than to what is facilitate as a extra adapter for a pyra.

Why on earth would it fail to charge via usb, when the option is a usb charger? Are you implying someone who buys a pyra doesnt have access to a usb port? And live in a place where buying a usb charger means you _have_ to wait to get one from ED? ED doesnt make money selling power adaptors.

Sorry, but I really must interject reality.

"USB: always the same" is outright false.

Get out a magnifying glass and check your existing chargers for output ratings.  Alternatively, take a picture of the label with your camera set to 'macro' then blow up the image.  Those things can be a royal pain to read - black ink on black plastic is common.

USB charging adapters range in output from 100mA (mice) all the way through 5A (BioLite Base Camp).  The most common ones are between 500mA and 1.5A.  

The USB port on your computer/laptop will likely output only 500mA.  USB 3.0 ports (the blue ones) are capable of 2A if the handshaking is successful.

Like most systems with tablet sized batteries (4000mAh - 6000mAh), a proper charger for the Pyra should produce around 2A at 5VDC.

The battery in the Pyra will likely ship at the level it's manufacturer ships the battery to ED at - unless ED wants to spend the additional hours pre-charging.  That will likely be a pre-charge of around 30% +/- of capacity.  So - around 2000mAh.  When the device is charging it is also, 'on' and consuming some non-trivial amount of the juice it's being fed.  What it receives in charge is whatever the adapter is capable of producing minus what is being used by the Pyra at the time - which could be anywhere from 50mA to 350mA depending on if the screen is on or not.

To charge it to it's full 6000mAh capacity (adding 4000mAh charge) while consuming 200mA would require about two and a half hours on a 2A charger OR 14+ hours at the 500mA - 200mA (operational) ~ 300mA that a 'normal' USB port provides.

For perspective, I have a 750mA miniUSB charger that I use with my Pandora on my desk.  When the Pandora is 'in use' just playing music, it can charge the Pandora from 80% to 100% full in the course of 3+ hours.  Perfectly acceptable for in-use charge maintenance, but pathetic for 'recharging' the unit on the go.

To further complicate matters, not all 2A USB charging blocks are the same.  Many of them communicate (handshake) with their intended device and won't even supply current unless it's the device they're expecting.  Barnes and Noble Nook chargers for example (2A but only talks to it's own device).  I also have a 2.1A USB charger from Samsung for my Galaxy Note II, and it will charge anything.  So, even within a given set of similar-powered chargers, some will or won't work with the Pyra.

USB chargers are not all the same.  It's really freekin' hard to read the labels on them.  Assuming that the end user has an adequate charger is a BIG assumption that could burn the project with unnecessary returns.  How?  Because people, like you for example, assume that all USB charging blocks are the same since the connector on the end matches.  They're not.

Read the labels on your adapters.  The Pyra is going to need a very good adapter to charge in reasonable time.  It really should ship with one.

Allowing people to opt out of receiving a charger is fine so long as there is no incentive to do so.  I.e. no 5EUR off for declining the adapter.  Nothing saved on shipping either.  Why?  Because there will be dolts who assume the charger isn't needed and then return the unit for 'failure to charge'.

Checking Ebay for 2A USB chargers, the things start at $1.55 each including shipping from China.  We're not talking big savings by not including them.  Good ones in bulk have to be <$2 each.  Not including one is simply a bad idea.

 

[levi]

Have you ever bought a made-to-measure computer? You can opt out of it having a hard disc if you want. That saves you money, but the computer you receive won't boot up as supplied.


Granted, your argument that it's no saving not to supply one bears some weight, but to argue that if it is cheaper to make/send a unit without a charger, there *must* be no discount sounds like profiteering to me.

 

[comradekingu]

Grench, can you stop interjecting reality.

The powergrid has multiple connectors, whereas the USB is always the USB one. That is what i meant.

Why should there be no benefit in declining the adapter? Its less work for ED.
Effectivly the ones who do, are then subsidizing wallchargers for everyone else.

Giving people wallchargers for free, or punishing those who dont, if you will, is an incentive to get one.

What is adequate is a personal preference, not a mandated need, as such, nor should a wallcharger be.

You cant get a refund if you hook it up to a barnes and noble adapter, because supposedly, they arent built to do anything but charge a barnes and noble. RMAs dont work like that either, since they have to be approved by the seller. And if you say it fails to charge, well then you will be prompted as to what charging methods you have tried.

>So, even within a given set of similar-powered chargers, some will or won't work with the Pyra.

That given set is your one example, are there others? Every device cant ship its own adapter since barnes and nobles has a defunct charger, that doesnt make any sense.

It would be nice if the charge level and time to full charge along with the rate at which charging is happening could be displayed on the screen.

I dont assume all chargers are the same, as you would know if you read my posts. Specifically in the part you quoted:

... a lot of countries have junk grid power, as such, overall, id much rather take my chances with plugging in a USB to a computer than into what could be reasonable to facilitate as an extra adapter for a pyra.

I for example think e-bay chargers for 1.55$ is cruel to humans, of poor quality for a multitude of reasons, and i don't understand what it has to do with including a charger with the pyra.

Why would you ruin the prospect of having a device built in Europe only to bundle it with something like that? There are other things but money in this world, to great irony, realizing this is also good for actually making money.

 

[RuneIV]

Lets try to gage interest and find something nice.
 
The act of fixing little things that are seemingly irrelevant and not obviously broken for the greater good of visuals that are uniform and make sense.
Done right its beautiful, done wrong it looks actively ugly.
This process starts at the ordering and information stage,continues with out of the box experience. And finally, and most importantly, the little improvements to make the device pleasant to use.
 
Debian jessie 8.0  with Xfce 4.10 or 11. Everyone can help translate Xfce to their language now https://www.transifex.com/organization/xfce/dashboard
 
 
(Where two or more programs are listed it means help is needed to pick the best one)

UI: SimpliX style, Ivy  -dev icons, axiom theme on window manager. RGB subpixel smoothing. Hinting on full. Sans font. My own background picture. 
 
Desktop info: Conky with all hotkeys listed on desktop, like in crunchbang. Super+W for web browser super+f for file browser and so on.
Chat: Pidgin with pidgin-otr and pidgin-zrtp, or empathy as they have otr too now. #pyra and #openpandora by default Possibly Venom tox client if they get video working.
Dock and menus: Standard xfce4-panel: Good for familiarity, dock in reach of thumbs.
Video: VLC and livestreamer (VLC 0.8X style on VLC and Qt Configuration to make it gtk+ style.)
Music: Quod Libet, noise
File manager: Thunar
Image viewer: PIV.
Image manipulation: Gimp
Image processing: Darktable
Video editor: PiTivi
Terminal emulator: Terminology, Terminator
Editor: Mousepad
Repository/package manager: Panda-manager, Synaptic, apt-get, aptitude, dpkg
Browser: Midori, iceweasel
Flash: Lightspark with fallback on gnash. Think lightspark depends on pulseaudio for sound, so thats hummm..
Init:  OpenRC
Quickstart programs:  exo-open, dmenu  gmrun  press Alt+f2 and f3 for quick access to starting a program.
Games: Battle for wesnoth (might be a bit big), nubnubs
 
Terminal/Ncurses apps: w3m cmus
Terminal-monospacefont:GNU unifont Terminus

Office suite? Either libreoffice or abiword and others
Emulators and homebrew?
login manager?
Sound production: Audacious, sibelius.
Development: Codeblocks
 
 
Optional item: bootup animation  (There are some good ones, depends on how long it takes to boot)
Optional item: sounds. http://cloudef.eu/armpit/renoise-test.ogg  (no bootup sound unless exceptionally good and non-intrusive, could have a uniform one for inhouse ingame efforts)
Optional item: A video for introduction in ~/video.
Nice motd for terminal emulator. More background images. That cant hurt?
 
 
/Audio:          Some nice chiptunes
/Documents: Quickstart manual, link to wiki, Declaration of conformity. (No paper wasted)
/Video:          Intro video
/Images:       Some relevant images, maybe put background images here.
 
Thoughts? Missing programs, improvements, ideas?

 

I don't know if I'd include that much software straight off the bat in the default install.

For example, while darktable looks excellent, what percentage of Pyra user will use it?

And if it is not installed by default it is still just an apt-get install away.

Same thing about Gimp, PiTivi, etc...

That said, I think the list is missing a PDF viewer. I think that reading PDFs is going to be a more common use case than editing movies and Pyra documents could be released in PDF. My favourite on Linux is evince, but I agree that it can be heavy in the dependency department.

Also, with Debian switching to systemd, wouldn't using OpenRC generate much more work for us?

The article linked previously in the thread does not concord with my experience with systemd and seems to propagate FUD to a certain degree.

I personally don't mind OpenRC (I've worked with SysVinit for years and it was fine for me), but what would it entail from the Pyra's dev community?

 

[comradekingu]

The whole libreoffice has a pdf-reader in it i think. I usually read pdf in the web-browser. Maybe a OMAP optimized pdf-reader?

I think more people will try those if installed by default, and they are good programs. The sections in the menu in xfce are separated into categories, so it wont clutter up much.

Gparted?

Krita and Karbon are good too, but then its too many deps.

Evince is default.

There is a scanning program by default, (XSane) While probably not many people will use it, its super handy when you do need it. Also some new users maybe dont know how awesome it is to just use that, instead of the 'driver-suite' that came with the scanner.

A package system is awesome, but its some getting used to if you come from under a rock.

OpenRC is an apt-get away, it works, havent bothered to care more. Im sure systemd leaves a lot behind, and i think they control udev, so you cant get completely rid of it unless you do a little work. Ask linux-swat, he is one of those people that care. Im glad there are such people in this world.

I dont want my init system to set my system clock. I dont want it to keep doing things it shouldnt do.

If anything, i think dumping systemd will generate sales. People who arent adversed to either wont care what init system it is.

Im interested to know too.

 

[_wb_]

I support _wb_'s idea of an opt-out charger-free option. I wouldn't want one myself as I see it as the environmentally conscious option, and I already have boxes full of various chargers for various devices. Not shipping a charger is aligned with the concept of standardising on micro-USB charging, although I agree that making including a charger the default so that nobody ends up with a device they can't charge is still the right choice at this moment in time.

It has to be opt-out, because if it is opt-in, too many people will say: "meh, I don't want to pay for the extra accessory, I'll just charge from my laptop" and then their laptop turns out to give only 500mA instead of the 2A a decent charger can provide, causing charging to be 4 times as slow as what would otherwise be possible, and people would blame it on the device, not on themselves. If it's opt-in, there's also too large a risk that people will accidentally forget to order it, and be frustrated because they end up having to pay twice for shipping.

You can't just assume that people already have chargers lying around, and even if you already have a charger, there are reasons to want to have a second one -- after all, if you already have a charger, then you probably also have at least one device that needs charging, and you may want to charge different devices simultaneously at full charging speed.

Opt-out with a discount would be the best solution imo. The discount should be less than the selling price of an individual charger, but it should correspond more or less to the actual production cost.

 

[thatgui]

I don't know if I'd include that much software straight off the bat in the default install.

To return the the original topic, I'm with DMK here, the basic image should be rather small, so downloading it is kept in a manageable timeframe (not everbody has highspeed internet nowadays, especially in rural areas) > Libreoffice alone is already almost twice the size as the current firmware image for the Pandora.
So if my idea isn't going to happen, I would rather keep things small with applications dedicated to a specific function. Lightweight (thus usually fast) applications are also good for a first user impression, as the the first impression a new user gets is that the system is responsive.

I think this is especially important for applications that people are used to from their desktop, like Libreoffice. Their desktop will probably provide a better userexperience, so people may get the impression that things are slow on the Pyra, not because they are expecting the Pyra to be on par with desktop performance, but simply because they subconsiously will compare the speed, no matter how objective they want to be.

I would not include applications that go beyond the basic needs, so I would skip on office suits,image/audio/video editing software, games, UI enhancements or simliar (e.g. conky).

 

[WizardStan]

their laptop turns out to give only 500mA instead of the 2A a decent charger can provide

Possibly only 100ma, if it charges at all.The USB standard says a 100mA draw is permitted without negotiation, if something draws more than that the host is permitted to limit the current. Depending on how the current is limited the charge chip may detect it as a bad connection and simply stop charging.

The Pandora suffers from this, I remember at least one post (specifically because that's where I learned more about these USB limits) where someone complained they couldn't charge off their USB port unless it was in mass storage mode (which automatically gets the full 500mA)

 

[comradekingu]

Well the pandora can also do a lot more over USB if you set it up for that. Being broken by default is no reason to assume the pyra will be.

If you look at a chart, and it has

full charge from 0 ↓

USB3.1 & 2A wall       |XXXXX

USB3    & 0.7A wall    |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

USB2    & 0.5 A wall   |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

                                    -------------------------------------

time →                                    hours                    10 hours

With some pictures that would be pretty clear, no?

Should we do a vote to find out what people would prefer?

thatgui: Then you are shipping regular debian for the most part. For that there is netinstall, minimal, and full images. Given how much more popular the distros are that are pre-riced, i think its best to offer that, and then a fast download, smaller one. Or add it to the menu, with a prompt to download. Removed Libreoffice

 

[WizardStan]

Should we do a vote to find out what people would prefer?

I don't think so. There seems to be enough arguments to demonstrate how easily opt-in can fail, it doesn't matter what people prefer.

 

[rygD]

Something like 

should be included for reasons you mentioned.


You put that inside the hardened case, or, you put it on your keychain, and use it for all your devices. Or your friends devices.

This is actually kinda cool, and I sorta like that idea.  I don't recall seeing these before.

 

[comradekingu]

libreoffice is out, abiword is in, need spreadsheet and presentation programs.

Gimp is out, in favour of gnome-paint. Alternatives considered were mtpaint and xpaint.  Pinta is a mono-app, so that wasnt tested.

Gnome-paint was familiar to ms-paint users, it had nice icons, whereas the other two didnt. Both felt like corel draw from way back.

mtpaint had layers, but it was a bit non-intuitive to use. If gnome-paint is too lackluster, gimp is the answer. They cater to two different needs very well.

Text, zoom and free selection feature wasnt implemented yet in gnome-paint, so that was the downfall.

Pitivi is only 32.5MB, even with recommends, so thats ok. The focus is now a collection of non-bloat, easy to use programs, instead of the heavy specialist tools.

 

[TrashyMG]

Should we do a vote to find out what people would prefer?

Yes please, my guess landslide favor of a wall charger.

 

[bzar]

I'd rather get an OS without preinstalled applications and just install those I like instead of needing to first remove the ones I don't. If there will be bundled applications would it be possible to make them optional? Install them on first boot from debs if the user so desires? And maybe have a downloadable image without them at all for those with limited connectivity?

 

[HamishTPB]

It is nice for the least technical users to have stuff ready to use though. I would rather have to uninstall (e.g.) Abiword and install (e.g.) L.O. Write than a user be disappointed that they can't word process "out of the box". People expect what they see on the advert / leaflet / website.

 

[thatgui]

I'd rather get an OS without preinstalled applications and just install those I like instead of needing to first remove the ones I don't. If there will be bundled applications would it be possible to make them optional? Install them on first boot from debs if the user so desires? And maybe have a downloadable image without them at all for those with limited connectivity?

Thats why I prefer a modular or "several presets" mode > give the user the choice at the end of the installation (or after the first boot)  between some entries on a (preferably extendable) list of presets (like "barebone", "For newbies", "programmer").

With debian, this shouldn't not be too hard, I guess  - just a bunch of apt - scripts that are parsed from a specific directory.

 

[Binky]

Given that:

• Electronic waste is an environmental problem
• Most Pyra customers will be quite techy
• The Pyra follows a lot of connector standards (USB, eSATA, HDMI, SDXC, SIM)

I think there should be an option to just buy then bare unit.

However, there should also be a build-a-bundle option much like the one ED currently offers, with discounts on popular accessories.

 

[comradekingu]

qt based moonlight and lxqt DEs added, along with otter-browser, which is a free and copyleft reincarnation of the good opera.

Not shipping gtk libs could be a benefit, but i think there are too weak alternatives on some points with only Qt-apps, those mentioned arent done yet, nor is tox. Which leaves IM and voip with http://psi-im.org/ and mumble, and then there is only OpenPGP encryption and no otr for the IM..