E-ink Screen


God Ginrai

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EvilDragon in IRC said:
I don't really want to do experiments with e-Ink. The reason so many issues happened with the Pandora and the iCP2 is because Craig always wanted to add more and more and more stuff.
 Yea, that's what EvilDragon told me yesterday when I asked him on IRC. However, he also suggested it was something we can look at for a Pyra successor.

Also of note, is that a lot of the concerns that EvilDragon seemed to have with it were things easily solved. (ie: What if two programs at once want to write to it?)

I think it is beneficial to continue discussion. If we bang out some plans and EvilDragon still doesn't want to do it, at least we have set up a foundation that plans for a Pyra successor can include. And who knows, maybe EvilDragon will change his mind if we have a good enough plan. :)

So the Pyra's features are basically locked down and ED has no interest in expanding on that. Commence discussion on how to make this a 3rd party mod. ;)
A third party mod would be useless. This kind of feature will have nothing coded for it if it is not standard.

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WizardStan

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This kind of feature will have nothing coded for it if it is not standard.
Code for it yourself. Write your own reader app. Modify the kernel drivers yourself.If enough people agree on an after market standard (even if it's only, like, 20 people) that's still a group of people that can work together and do some amazing things.

edit: and with that small group of people serving as guinea pigs it may convince ED to include it as standard in the successor, if/when that happens.
 
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God Ginrai

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This kind of feature will have nothing coded for it if it is not standard.
Code for it yourself. Write your own reader app. Modify the kernel drivers yourself.If enough people agree on an after market standard (even if it's only, like, 20 people) that's still a group of people that can work together and do some amazing things.

edit: and with that small group of people serving as guinea pigs it may convince ED to include it as standard in the successor, if/when that happens.
I'm sorry, but assuming that anyone will actually mod in a screen and code their own drivers for it when no application will use it unless they write it is just daft.

And no application will use it if it isn't a standard feature. Unlike the secondary shoulder buttons and the TV-out cable for the Pandora, none of the hardware or drivers for this are already given to us.

-God Ginrai
 

WizardStan

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I'm sorry, but assuming that anyone will actually mod in a screen and code their own drivers for it when no application will use it unless they write it is just daft.
Then I fully intend to be daft. Sounds like a fun project.
 

Klumpen

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I always wondered, why there are not third party mods for Pandora (besides the old TV-out cable, but that's an accessory).

Since Pyra will be more friendly towards hardware hacks, I sense interesting stuff coming. :)
 

God Ginrai

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I'm sorry, but assuming that anyone will actually mod in a screen and code their own drivers for it when no application will use it unless they write it is just daft.
Then I fully intend to be daft. Sounds like a fun project.
Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'll be happy if you actually make this into something that we can use. However, I won't believe it will happen until you show me it working.

However, I am interested in discussing how the e-ink sreen should work so that we can make a plan for how the e-ink screen would work so that EvilDragon can peruse it and either change his mind or use it for the P3. So, my suggested line of discussion will probably be useful to you if you actually follow through with this plan.

-God Ginrai
 

SNESFAN

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My laptop has a 2nd display for time CPU usage and all types of stuff. Thought it would be insanely useful when I got it. Turns out it is rarely used for anything at all. Most of the time I forget I even have it. I'm the type of person who is going to turn off the keyboard backlight 99.99% of the time. I don't care paying for something I will never use as long as someone would use it. I understand I'm not everyone, or even most people. But I think in this specific instance most people wouldn't really use it as much as you would think.
 

God Ginrai

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My laptop has a 2nd display for time CPU usage and all types of stuff. Thought it would be insanely useful when I got it. Turns out it is rarely used for anything at all. Most of the time I forget I even have it. I'm the type of person who is going to turn off the keyboard backlight 99.99% of the time. I don't care paying for something I will never use as long as someone would use it. I understand I'm not everyone, or even most people. But I think in this specific instance most people wouldn't really use it as much as you would think.
A secondary display that can only be used for stats, I agree. However, A large enough display on the back of the lid is a different matter. I'm sure plenty of people would be interested in using it if only to personalize the back of their device. Not to mention, I'm sure than anyone who would want to read an ebook on their device would opt for reading it on the e-ink sreen that can be read in portrait without having to be held awkwardly. The same likely applies for RSS.

Also, remember, your laptop doesn't have a community of developers based around it like the Pandora does and the Pyra will. That means that there are much less people who would be interested in making use of that feature on your laptop than there would be on the Pyra.

-God Ginrai
 
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Kiga

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The problem with a big screen is the price, I don't think ED would want to increase the price by $50 for an e-ink display, even if a lot of people are ready to pay 80€.

But _wb_'s idea is still good and cheap, a mini e-ink screen would be very useful and it takes no place.
 
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WizardStan

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Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'll be happy if you actually make this into something that we can use
Well it won't be something "we" can use if I'm the one doing it. That's why I proposed working with others who might also be interested in such a project. If that's not you then you won't benefit.
 

God Ginrai

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The problem with a big screen is the price, I don't think ED would want to increase the price by $50 for an e-ink display, even if a lot of people are ready to pay 80€.

But _wb_'s idea is still good and cheap, a mini e-ink screen would be very useful and it takes no place.
 EvilDragon isn't concerned about the price, but the design process of building the hardware as well as writing the drivers for it and lack of an official API.

Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'll be happy if you actually make this into something that we can use
Well it won't be something "we" can use if I'm the one doing it. That's why I proposed working with others who might also be interested in such a project. If that's not you then you won't benefit.
If you get something working that people can reproduce and you write apps for it, then that is something that "we" (read: the community) can use. Or do you mean to say that you'll get it working but keep it to yourself?

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WizardStan

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I wouldn't intentionally keep it to myself, but if there's no interest in it I'm not likely to bring it up regularly. Why bother people with my project that they don't have any interest in?
 

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My laptop has a 2nd display for time CPU usage and all types of stuff. Thought it would be insanely useful when I got it. Turns out it is rarely used for anything at all. Most of the time I forget I even have it. I'm the type of person who is going to turn off the keyboard backlight 99.99% of the time. I don't care paying for something I will never use as long as someone would use it. I understand I'm not everyone, or even most people. But I think in this specific instance most people wouldn't really use it as much as you would think.
A secondary display that can only be used for stats, I agree. However, A large enough display on the back of the lid is a different matter. I'm sure plenty of people would be interested in using it if only to personalize the back of their device. Not to mention, I'm sure than anyone who would want to read an ebook on their device would opt for reading it on the e-ink sreen that can be read in portrait without having to be held awkwardly. The same likely applies for RSS.


Also, remember, your laptop doesn't have a community of developers based around it like the Pandora does and the Pyra will. That means that there are much less people who would be interested in making use of that feature on your laptop than there would be on the Pyra.

-God Ginrai
it's a pretty big screen actually. It does all types of stuff, you can even hook it into games and get info, art, stats on crap in games, email alerts, rss feeds, text messages etc etc etc.

It uses the same display as the logitec gamecontroller things that's in new keyboards. It's a rather robust actually, the only thing it lacks in comparison is ebook reading if you ask me. For all intents and purposes I would consider most of the use cases similar minus the size.

there is also a bit of community attached to it, 3rd party drivers and controller apps etc. There's even a music visualizer app for it that's pretty neat. It's quite impressive when I think about all the stuff they done. I just have no "real" use for it other than it being kinda gimmicy.

top right corner of keyboard

P1014442.jpg
 
 
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Tenka

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Darn ED, I really hope you reconsider the back of screen E-Ink for the Pyra.  I want to be able to choose my own logo anytime.  A stealth E-Ink screen flush with the rest of the lid in color and feel... it's like an upgradeable tattoo or digital painted walls.
 

God Ginrai

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it's a pretty big screen actually. It does all types of stuff, you can even hook it into games and get info, art, stats on crap in games, email alerts, rss feeds, text messages etc etc etc.

It uses the same display as the logitec gamecontroller things that's in new keyboards. It's a rather robust actually, the only thing it lacks in comparison is ebook reading if you ask me. For all intents and purposes I would consider most of the use cases similar minus the size.

there is also a bit of community attached to it, 3rd party drivers and controller apps etc. There's even a music visualizer app for it that's pretty neat. It's quite impressive when I think about all the stuff they done. I just have no "real" use for it other than it being kinda gimmicy.
Ok, I guess I can see your argument. With that display on my laptop, I would likely feel the same way. However, the reason I feel that way may be different than yours.

I look at that and think: "Why would I use that screen when there is a bigger one right above it?"

Whereas with an e-ink screen, there are definite advantages to give you an answer to that question:

  • Save battery life by having the LCD off
  • Read ebooks, RSS, comics, and *possibly* browse the web while holding the handheld in portrait mode in a much more comfortable position
  • An e-ink screen is easier on your eyes when reading, and won't keep you up at night.
  • Caller-id for those who wish to use it as a phone (they would likely be at your voicemail by the time you actually opened the Pyra to see what it says on your LCD)
-God Ginrai
 

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^those are all valid points. I feel people would use it, and for those exact reasons too.

but is the extra complexity, slightly larger cost, & the possibility of it being less durable worth it?

If I were ED, I wouldn't even consider it because I think the term is "development hell" I think he has a nice across the board extra feature set that significantly improves on everything without going overboard. The line has been drawn at a fair distance from the original to differentiate it. Something like this would be nice, but it's one of those "project killer" ideas, just not a "killer project" idea. At least in my opinion.
 
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God Ginrai

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but is the extra complexity, slightly larger cost, & the possibility of it being less durable worth it?
I believe that the extra complexity and slightly larger cost are worth it. As for the possibility of it being less durable, I've presented a lot of information to suggest otherwise, so I don't really see that as much of a possibility at the moment. Plus, assuming it was a possibility, there are ways to fix that.

-God Ginrai
 

StarG

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Running haywire because of "iCP2 is because Craig always wanted to add more and more and more stuff."... Yups beginner error! (in the context of software development at least).

Each feature needs to be carefully considered and checked if it does hamper with the basic design. (and if it does the design needs to be changed).

Development needs alot of preparational time. Time where just the guts are being thought out. The more you invest into thinking and planning ahead the less sorry later on. (Although you need some basic experience beforehand... if you don't have the only option is both to boldy go ahead and make errors to learn from or to ask questions)

Its not put another feature in a feature laden device but to ask does it benefit? If not it still could be made an optional feature... the mold could have some cut-outs for preparation for instance.
 
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Yoyobuae

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I liked this idea. But I see why ED would rather not go with it at the moment.

Maybe it could be sold seperately later on as an upgrade. For example the back side of the lid could be sold with the epaper display integrated. Or even just sell the needed plastic parts to make the DIY job a bit easier.

Not sure about the communication to rest of the system. Ideal would be for no extra cabling thru hinge to be needed.

Other more expensive option would be to buy the entire top lid with epaper display already installed. That way any extra interface cables would be installed already.

Or even being more aggressive, that the entire unit minus the daughter board be sold with the display integrated. This would allow to include extra chips and connections if these are required.

Of course, this is thinking way into the future, once Pyra has been out for a while already.
 
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God Ginrai

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Development needs alot of preparational time. Time where just the guts are being thought out. The more you invest into thinking and planning ahead the less sorry later on. (Although you need some basic experience beforehand... if you don't have the only option is both to boldy go ahead and make errors to learn from or to ask questions)
 Hence why I want EvilDragon to contact E-ink. If he talks to them, they may be able to give him a good idea of how much effort it will require him. At that point, he can make an informed decision on whether to include the screen or not.

Its not put another feature in a feature laden device but to ask does it benefit?
There is plenty of evidence in this topic to suggest that it benefits. All that awaits now is to do research and then evaluate the opportunity cost.

-God Ginrai
 
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