E-ink Screen

[God Ginrai]

Yea, but the recess only protects against piercing damage, not scratches from dropping it.

Can't make any sense of that, the recess protects from "basic" falling damage (= it just falls on a more or less flat surface). But the real point is, that ereaders have another usecase/user in mind: People that take their ereader out of their bag/backpack/whatever, remove the protection they have usually bought seperately, read and if they are finished they reverse the process from the beginning.The Pyras will be: get it out of the pocket/bag/etc. use it, put it back in. So the surface will always be exposed to more "wear" and other objects that reside with them in whatever the customer uses to transport the Pyra in.

One reason why its a clamshell after all, protecting the screen is not of upmost importance as its already covered by the case itself

 I don't know, my friend just tossed his Kindle in his backpack w/o a case all the time, and I never remember him having any screen problems...

Sounds to me like good sales. Having Gorilla Glass will give the customer a better confidence in the device even if it is not needed.

But their unique selling point is th eInk display, and they don't activly advertise that the display is covered with gorilla glass. To me it looks more like they are going the "safe" route and provide additional protection for the display.

 Don't they cover both screens with Gorilla Glass? It's almost common practice to cover LCDs with Gorilla Glass now on cell phones. If they were to cover one screen but not the other, I could see that leading to customer complaints. (Why aren't you protecting both screens on my device? etc.)

Just to illustrate my proposal, a quick sketch:

From the side it could look something like this:

(alternatively, it could only go in like that for the e-ink display; the angles can also help to make it easier to open the lid)

 This wouldn't even ever be in your line of sight during normal use; I pointed this out before.

<edit>And it would possibly use less energy, so longer battery life.</edit>

 E-ink uses little battery, sure, but I have a hard time believing it would use less than a couple of standalone LEDs. Especially since to mimic an LED, it would need to be updated whenever the LED would've needed to be updated, which is a lot more often than an E-ink display is updated in normal use. And most importantly, you wouldn't be able to tell any of the statuses that the LEDs let you know about while it's dark, because this screen would not be lit.

I would like to have a big e-ink screen in the lid, but I think it would be too expensive to add to all units, and too tricky to make optional. So realistically, I think we should forget about it -- I don't think it would be a wise decision to add that.

 Kiga has pointed out that there are some pretty cheap E-ink screens here. And aside from that, we've had a number of people in this topic express that they would even pay top dollar for an e-ink screen on the lid of this device. I hardly think that this can be considered "too expensive".

A small low-power screen like I propose would not be that expensive and it could be used for most of the things you would use the e-ink screen for: showing time/date/battery level/whatever status info, showing song titles when playing music, subject lines of incoming mails or incoming messages, etc.

All your screen could be used for is notifications, debugging, and small data. I hardly find that to be "most" of the things you would use the e-ink screen for. It can't be used for any sort of comfortable reading, whether it be ebooks, web browsing, RSS, and even comics.

It would not be very suitable for reading books or for internet browsing, for that, a big e-ink screen would be better (although I would still prefer the main screen for internet browsing because it's nice to have color and smooth scrolling).

Color is nice, but if I'm just reading articles, I'd much prefer to save battery and use the screen that is easier on my eyes. Plus, holding a clamshell open to read is much more uncomfortable than just holding a closed device to read.

It could be used for more purposes than an e-ink display on the backside of the lid, because it can be used in conjunction with the rest of the device: you can use the keyboard and the main screen while using the small screen. For the same reason an e-ink display on the back does not replace the status LEDs, it only complements them (more info) and allows them to be visible only with the lid open, but they still have to be somewhere since you want to check status while using the device too.

 It can not be used in conjunction with the rest of the device, since it is below your line of sight during normal operation. Plus, even if it was, there isn't anything that having access to the keyboard and gaming controls actually enables on this screen.

An eInk like you propose would be mostly covered by your hands and pointing away from you while the Pyra is being used.

And it wouldn't cover "most" of /my/ uses for the larger screen, as I'd mainly use that for reading longer texts.

Edit: To clarify: I'm still for a small screen replacing the status LEDs, I just think it has less benefits than you make it seem.

This is exactly what I've been trying to point out. Except I don't agree with replacing the status LEDs, for the reasons I mention earlier in this post.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

I would like to have a big e-ink screen in the lid, but I think it would be too expensive to add to all units, and too tricky to make optional. So realistically, I think we should forget about it -- I don't think it would be a wise decision to add that.

 
Kiga has pointed out that there are some pretty cheap E-ink screens here. And aside from that, we've had a number of people in this topic express that they would even pay top dollar for an e-ink screen on the lid of this device. I hardly think that this can be considered "too expensive".

Sure, some people would pay top dollar for this feature. Maybe I'm even one of them. For those people it's indeed not too expensive. The problem is all the other people...

It could be used for more purposes than an e-ink display on the backside of the lid, because it can be used in conjunction with the rest of the device: you can use the keyboard and the main screen while using the small screen. For the same reason an e-ink display on the back does not replace the status LEDs, it only complements them (more info) and allows them to be visible only with the lid open, but they still have to be somewhere since you want to check status while using the device too.

 
It can not be used in conjunction with the rest of the device, since it is below your line of sight during normal operation. Plus, even if it was, there isn't anything that having access to the keyboard and gaming controls actually enables on this screen.

I think it could be in the line of sight. At least it is less effort to look at it than at the back of the device. When you put it on a table like a laptop, it should be easy to see both displays well. When held like a handheld, it probably depends on the lid angle -- if it's 180 degrees like I use my Pandora, you're probably right, but I don't think I would use that angle if I had a choice.

Having access to the keyboard means you can open a terminal on the small screen (OK, only a few lines and not very wide), and do anything. E.g. chat on IRC while playing a game in an emulator. It would be quite practical to kill misbehaving full-screen applications (provided there is a robust way to get keyboard focus on the small screen) without having to ssh into your Pyra and stuff like that.

 

[God Ginrai]

Sure, some people would pay top dollar for this feature. Maybe I'm even one of them. For those people it's indeed not too expensive. The problem is all the other people...

 Yea, but you're assuming 2 things that you have no way to prove:

• That you would have to pay top dollar for this feature
• That the number of people buying the Pyra would decrease due to the addition of this feature.

I don't believe either of these two points are true.

I think it could be in the line of sight. At least it is less effort to look at it than at the back of the device. When you put it on a table like a laptop, it should be easy to see both displays well. When held like a handheld, it probably depends on the lid angle -- if it's 180 degrees like I use my Pandora, you're probably right, but I don't think I would use that angle if I had a choice.

 At the angles I use my Pandora, DS, and 3DS, that screen would be either below my line of sight or facing my stomach, and thus would not be able to be seen. Even the angle you have in your image would be a viewing angle that would be uncomfortable to look at the screen from.

Having access to the keyboard means you can open a terminal on the small screen (OK, only a few lines and not very wide), and do anything. E.g. chat on IRC while playing a game in an emulator. It would be quite practical to kill misbehaving full-screen applications (provided there is a robust way to get keyboard focus on the small screen) without having to ssh into your Pyra and stuff like that.

You would not be able to do any of these because if the application you currently have running uses the keyboard for anything then the keypresses will be intercepted by the application. And if you instead are intercepting the key presses with the screen app first, then those buttons won't work in your regular applications.

Not to mention, that little screen space is not useful for either Terminal or IRC operations. It wouldn't even be room enough to display the output of an ls, much less any more complicated operation. And you would completely miss messages from users on IRC due to your screen being able to display maybe 3-4 lines at a time. And if you are paying such undivided attention to the screen so as to not miss those messages in IRC, then you won't be able to pay attention to the game you want to play. At that point, why aren't you using IRC on the larger screen?

-God Ginrai

 

[Granitehead]

<edit>And it would possibly use less energy, so longer battery life.</edit>

 E-ink uses little battery, sure, but I have a hard time believing it would use less than a couple of standalone LEDs. Especially since to mimic an LED, it would need to be updated whenever the LED would've needed to be updated, which is a lot more often than an E-ink display is updated in normal use. And most importantly, you wouldn't be able to tell any of the statuses that the LEDs let you know about while it's dark, because this screen would not be lit.

As said, depends on the refresh rate. I think pretty low would be okay.Whether stuff would be visible in the dark depends on whether we have backlight or not - though of course that would need to be turned off if you want to save energy.

 

[God Ginrai]

As said, depends on the refresh rate. I think pretty low would be okay.

Not really. Even if you were to update the display only 4 times a second, I would think that a couple of LEDs would use less power. (I could be wrong)

Whether stuff would be visible in the dark depends on whether we have backlight or not - though of course that would need to be turned off if you want to save energy.

Umm, no. E-ink screens work by reflecting light that is shined at it. Backlight and E-ink are incompatible technologies.

Also, another problem with replacing the LEDs with the screen would be the fact that we would be forced to power and use the e-ink display while in the charging microkernel so that people could tell that their device was charging.

-God Ginrai

 

[Granitehead]

As said, depends on the refresh rate. I think pretty low would be okay.

Not really. Even if you were to update the display only 4 times a second, I would think that a couple of LEDs would use less power. (I could be wrong)

Whether stuff would be visible in the dark depends on whether we have backlight or not - though of course that would need to be turned off if you want to save energy.

Umm, no. E-ink screens work by reflecting light that is shined at it. Backlight and E-ink are incompatible technologies.

Umm, yes. There are backlighted eInks, don't ask me how they work. Maybe they are called transflective LCDs, but they are basically the same.
And I was thinking more in the direction of once per 5 seconds or something

 

[God Ginrai]

Umm, yes. There are backlighted eInks, don't ask me how they work.

Show me one. The only thing I know of that you could be thinking of is Pixel Qi, which is not E-ink in any fashion.

And I was thinking more in the direction of once per 5 seconds or something

That is entirely insufficient for showing any sort of activity such as SD reads. (or when your 3G chip powers up for those paranoid people)

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

I think these: http://www.sharpmemorylcd.com/1-17-inch-memory-lcd.html might work with a backlight. Also they can handle high refresh rates just fine and power consumption is very low.

 

[WizardStan]

They're also more expensive and will definitely require a slightly more (but not much) complex controller.

 

[Granitehead]

Umm, yes. There are backlighted eInks, don't ask me how they work.

Show me one. The only thing I know of that you could be thinking of is Pixel Qi, which is not E-ink in any fashion.

And I was thinking more in the direction of once per 5 seconds or something

That is entirely insufficient for showing any sort of activity such as SD reads. (or when your 3G chip powers up for those paranoid people)

-God Ginrai

Go watch some of those linked videos, I'm pretty sure one of those had an eReader with backlight.1/5s is pretty okay in my opinion, for anything. It would make it much more visible if the 3G chip powers on (assuming you just display it as on if it was on for any amount of time during those 5 seconds). It would also be possible to graph the activity of the past 5 seconds (or longer). Which would make any spikes even more visible.

 

[God Ginrai]

Go watch some of those linked videos, I'm pretty sure one of those had an eReader with backlight.

That was a frontlight, not a backlight.

1/5s is pretty okay in my opinion, for anything. It would make it much more visible if the 3G chip powers on (assuming you just display it as on if it was on for any amount of time during those 5 seconds). It would also be possible to graph the activity of the past 5 seconds (or longer). Which would make any spikes even more visible.

I was under the assumption that the reason the people wanted the LED for the 3G chip was so that they could do something about it. A 5 second delay would make this very hard.

Second of all, there wouldn't be enough room to graph all the required LEDs you are replacing, or even more than one on a screen the size that _wb_ is suggesting.

And finally, if I'm debugging something and I need to know if the SD card was accessed during some action, I can't really tell that by looking at a graph. I need to see the light blink when it happens.

-God Ginrai

 

[Granitehead]

I don't care whether it's a front or back light as long as it lights the screen up - should I?

Tell me something you can do when you are noticed of 3G on instantly versus 5s later. I can't think of anything. No matter what, once it lights up the first chunk of data can be out before you can do anything against it.

I think there is enough room. Doesn't need to be a huge and detailed graph after all.

Debugging isn't general use, you could turn up refresh time to the max for debugging.

 

[Tenka]

I don't care...


Tell me something you can do...


I think there is enough room...

In order for your present ideas to be taken seriously you need to either own up to the ones which were already shown to be bad or say why they're still good.  If you only throw wrenches without admitting mistakes then you're going to trip.

Debugging isn't general use, you could turn up refresh time to the max for debugging.

Debugging is a general use of the LEDs, almost everyone here who's name I can remember debugs software on their Pandoras, that is one of those uses that sets these devices apart from everything else.

 

[thatgui]

I don't know, my friend just tossed his Kindle in his backpack w/o a case all the time, and I never remember him having any screen problems...

Don't know the model of the Kindle you are talking about, but the touch versions have an additional layer on top of the screen which facilitates the touch functionality - so actually the eInk screen is really never exposed.

Don't they cover both screens with Gorilla Glass? It's almost common practice to cover LCDs with Gorilla Glass now on cell phones. If they were to cover one screen but not the other, I could see that leading to customer complaints. (Why aren't you protecting both screens on my device? etc.)

Maybe thats different in the area where you live, but Gorilla Glas isn't really a sales point around here, it mentioned in the reviews, but I never saw a negative Comment like "this has no gorilla glas, so I probably won't buy it".It also seems a little akward, that they spent a lot of money on an additional gorilla glass covering just because customers expect them to.

Debugging is a general use of the LEDs, almost everyone here who's name I can remember debugs software on their Pandoras, that is one of those uses that sets these devices apart from everything else.

That may be true, but it probably isn't a general use for the Pyra: I guess at least half of the Pyra users won't debug at all, and most part of the other half will use the terminal to debug things. There may be a small group that get that "close" to the hardware that they don't have much alternatives, but I think this doesn't count as "general use" in the context.

 

[Granitehead]

@Tenka:

First, it's not my idea, to make that clear.

Second, in my opinion I defended my arguments well enough. I could have spent more time explaining, true, but I think if one wants to he can understand them.

Debugging: Only very few people will do that for longer amounts of time while not having enough energy available. That means it's okay if you need to turn up the refresh rate for that task and if that takes a little more energy. I don't think you need really instant feedback while debugging, if it's like 0.5s but you can see the last 5s in a graph, that should be fine and maybe even better than just a blinking LED.

Do I need to draw up a mockup of a display displaying a few graphs or what? Do you have no imagination? My comparison to conky was probably not ideal because those graphs would need to be less high, but they would still be graphs. [---||---|-|] (-=not active, |=active).

My other two points were questions and don't need further explaining in any way, I think.

 

[StarG]

Absolute OT for the question of an E-Ink.... but as far as i noticed there's hardly any connection from the community to the actual making of the device. Apart of Gta04/ED very rarely making a stance about this or that. Debates pro or contra does actually yield well zilch. Please correct me in this stance. I was looking forward to open a topic about goals what to archieve with the device and what would be best to do so.

on topic: Todays Eink tech allows to show information at little to zero energy cost. Thats why i'd suggested already to use a small display on the io-board for displaying characters/symbols and "mapping" them to buttons by using transparent support beams. OLEDs or EInks would come in handy but for the latter it obviously needs a backlighting so OLEDs being preferable.

 

[God Ginrai]

I don't care whether it's a front or back light as long as it lights the screen up - should I?

You should. Frontlight is an "around-the-screen" technology, which means to include that in _wb_'s example, it would end up taking more room requiring you to either make the screen smaller or make the base thicker, neither of which is something I think people will want.

Tell me something you can do when you are noticed of 3G on instantly versus 5s later. I can't think of anything. No matter what, once it lights up the first chunk of data can be out before you can do anything against it.

So you'd rather give them 5 more seconds of time to get any data they please before the user can do something about it?

I think there is enough room. Doesn't need to be a huge and detailed graph after all.

No, because you'd need 3 graphs, one for each SD slot and one for the 3G LED. _wb_'s IRC and Terminal suggestions are more sane than this.

Debugging isn't general use, you could turn up refresh time to the max for debugging.

 I'm sorry, you misunderstand. I don't refer to merely debugging my own written software, but also debugging things going wrong in the OS. This happens often enough on any computer that I don't see how you can say it isn't general use.

I don't know, my friend just tossed his Kindle in his backpack w/o a case all the time, and I never remember him having any screen problems...

Don't know the model of the Kindle you are talking about, but the touch versions have an additional layer on top of the screen which facilitates the touch functionality - so actually the eInk screen is really never exposed.

Actually, that's completely false. The Kindle Touch uses IR touchscreen technology embedded in the bezel. There is no layer over the screen. See here: http://www.theverge.com/2011/11/14/2559732/kindle-touch-review

What's new (at least as far as Amazon is concerned) is the touch sensing, which is actually embedded in the bezel and works optically, meaning you can use it with gloves on, and there's nothing on top of the E Ink to lessen readability (a problem with early touch e-readers).

Don't they cover both screens with Gorilla Glass? It's almost common practice to cover LCDs with Gorilla Glass now on cell phones. If they were to cover one screen but not the other, I could see that leading to customer complaints. (Why aren't you protecting both screens on my device? etc.)

Maybe thats different in the area where you live, but Gorilla Glas isn't really a sales point around here, it mentioned in the reviews, but I never saw a negative Comment like "this has no gorilla glas, so I probably won't buy it".It also seems a little akward, that they spent a lot of money on an additional gorilla glass covering just because customers expect them to.

 Since when has a selling point been something that people will refuse to buy a device because it didn't have? Selling points are features that convince people to buy. Also, I've seen plenty of comments on cell phones bitching about them not having Gorilla Glass.

Debugging is a general use of the LEDs, almost everyone here who's name I can remember debugs software on their Pandoras, that is one of those uses that sets these devices apart from everything else.

That may be true, but it probably isn't a general use for the Pyra: I guess at least half of the Pyra users won't debug at all, and most part of the other half will use the terminal to debug things. There may be a small group that get that "close" to the hardware that they don't have much alternatives, but I think this doesn't count as "general use" in the context.

 As I mentioned above, I also mean debugging problems with the OS.

I don't think you need really instant feedback while debugging, if it's like 0.5s but you can see the last 5s in a graph, that should be fine and maybe even better than just a blinking LED.

Not really. You can't always just stop whatever you are doing as soon as the graph refreshes. So you won't be able to tell what event the SD read actually coincided with. Also, while you are trying to determine that, if you take longer than 5 seconds, the graph will get replaced by a new one, screwing you over.

-God Ginrai

 

[bzar]

I don't really want to do experiments with e-Ink. The reason so many issues happened with the Pandora and the iCP2 is because Craig always wanted to add more and more and more stuff.

 

[WizardStan]

So the Pyra's features are basically locked down and ED has no interest in expanding on that. Commence discussion on how to make this a 3rd party mod.

 

[klapse]

Or just close the damn thread.