DRM wars (Steam, Origin, Starforce, Battle.net, installation limits, etc...)

[thatgui]

Of course steam provides valuable, additional services, and its just boils down to personal preference if one is willing to pay the "price", and I have no interest in getting into a long discussion wether steam is "good" or "evil" or whatever label some people need to tag onto something.

But as I am passionate smart-ass, I can't help myself but question some of the positive things (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):

Valve is extremely supportive of gaming on Linux

What exactly does valve do for gaming on Linux? As fas as I know, they only do something as long as its needed to expand their distribution plattform. So they aren't really doing something for gaming on Linux but gaming on the target system, that just happens to be Linux.

can download and install a game at any time on any computer: good download speeds, no need to backup games or take care of discs

While that surely is a positive thing, we already argued about that in this thread, short: other provide that too, if you can't use the service anymore you can't access the games.

it automatically updates the games

How often does that actually happen ? Nevertheless convenient, unless its forced upon you: "Just a quick sesson of XYZ" .. "What an update ? 300MB, 10min download" .."Crud"

cross platform windows/mac/linux - buy once play on any platform

Others provide that service too, again a plus, no doubt about it

runs well in wine, most windows games I've tried "just work" in steam on wine

Unless valves is activly working on making wine compatibility better, its hardly a plus for steam

Steam has some quality control, most games that get on to Steam are not awful

Wasn't there some kind of small disaster with DayZ some moths ago ? But more generally speaking: one mans awful game is another mans gem.

community features such as reviews, forums, chat, achievements, etc

very subjective, and aren't there already enough reviews, forums, chats, etc. out there called "the internetz" ?

Valve has started to release some open-source software

Could you elaborate further on that ?

For many games, can buy DRM-free version and get a steam key thrown in, e.g. on the Humble Store.

Why exactly is that a positive thing for steam, shouldn't this be more of a "+" for the humble store ?

It's easy to gift spare games from bundles

Again no real positive for steam, and other plattforms provide gift codes too.

In my opinion Steam's advantages are so great that they almost don't need DRM. People would choose to use Steam anyway.

I think that too, and maybe someday some executive at Valve has the same idea.

I trust Valve because they seem to be a good company with good reputation, and it's in their interests to keep their customers happy.

Which company hasn't an interest in keeping their customers happy ?

Steam is so successful, I think it's highly unlikely that the company would fail or the service would shut down.

There is no need for the company to shut down. At one point in the future Valve or you may not have any interest in keeping a business relationship, then what ?

the "library" in the steam client does not support filtering by "tags" (but I think they are working on it)

Its no tags, but I think I remember the possibility of some kind of categorization

 

[sswam]

What exactly does valve do for gaming on Linux?

- port Steam to run on Linux

- selling Linux games on their store

- port many of their games to run on Linux / OpenGL

- creating a version of Linux designed for gaming with Steam (SteamOS)

- "Steam Boxes", which will run Linux based on Debian, not locked down

- open-sourcing various software to help with porting games to Linux / OpenGL - https://github.com/ValveSoftware

- outspoken in support of Linux gaming

other provide that too, if you can't use the service anymore you can't access the games.

I've observed that some other download services do not provide good download speeds. In my opinion Valve Steam will be around for a long time, I'm not concerned that they will suddenly go out of business. It's just not realistic, they are the market leader and totally raking in the cash. More likely Microsoft would go out of business. If Valve did go out of business and shut down Steam, I would patch or crack the games I care about or download DRM-free / cracked games from elsewhere.

How often does (automatic updates) actually happen ?

Very often, especially with Linux versions where the initial port might not be perfect. I have never felt inconvenienced by an upgrade. I have plenty of games and I'm not going to spit the dummy if I can't play a game for half an hour while it updates. Rather I'm grateful that I don't have to check for updates manually. I can see this would be a problem for people on dailup, with only one game, or having an angry temperament.

runs well in wine, most windows games I've tried "just work" in steam on wine

Unless valves is activly working on making wine compatibility better, its hardly a plus for steam

I think there is often less need for hacking wine when installing a game through steam, it tends to just work.

For many games, can buy DRM-free version and get a steam key thrown in, e.g. on the Humble Store.

Why exactly is that a positive thing for steam, shouldn't this be more of a "+" for the humble store ?

Steam gives unlimited keys to developers, free of charge, so they can give free steam keys along with their own sales. So you can get the DRM-free version and the Steam version together at no extra cost, it's not one or the other. This addresses the unlikely "what if Valve goes out of business" scenario.

the "library" in the steam client does not support filtering by "tags" (but I think they are working on it)

Its no tags, but I think I remember the possibility of some kind of categorization

They do have a "category" feature at the moment, but it's not very good. They are adding "community sourced" tags to the store, and it's working quite well. Hopefully they'll add them to the library also.

http://store.steampowered.com/tag/

For example here are some spare games I'm giving away, showing those that are tagged "comedy":

http://sam.nipl.net/free-games-all.html#comedy

I'm a Linux / Open Source fanatic, I care about digital rights and in general I dislike DRM, but I like Steam.

 

[thatgui]

- port Steam to run on Linux


- selling Linux games on their store


- port many of their games to run on Linux / OpenGL


- open-sourcing various software to help with porting games to Linux / OpenGL - https://github.com/ValveSoftware


- outspoken in support of Linux gaming

They are not doing that for gamers on Linux, they are doing that to push their plattform into a new area - the living room. Compare that to Humble Bundle, which started with selling Linux version of (popular) indie titles way before Valve even anncounced their idea to bring games to linux.


And I don't see anything on their github page that has real value unless you want to utilize steam as your distribution plattform.

- creating a version of Linux designed for gaming with Steam (SteamOS)


- "Steam Boxes", which will run Linux based on Debian, not locked down

I don't see why this has anything to do with doing something for gaming on linux. If that would be the case, google would be the greatest contributor to games on linux with Android > both provide an alternative "middleware/user interface" on hardware that runs a customized Linux kernel and design recommendations for the hardware.

I've observed that some other download services do not provide good download speeds. In my opinion Valve Steam will be around for a long time, I'm not concerned that they will suddenly go out of business. It's just not realistic, they are the market leader and totally raking in the cash. More likely Microsoft would go out of business. If Valve did go out of business and shut down Steam, I would patch or crack the games I care about or download DRM-free / cracked games from elsewhere.

I only used gog and hb so far without problems, regarding download speed. But as said before I don't worry about Valve shutting down. But that either Valve or I decide that we don't wan't to do business anymore with each other at a certain point.


And why are you so sure you can just "patch or crack" a game especially if its a "not so widespread known title" that big cracker groups may not even know it ? And isn't relying on someones service in order to play your games something you would like to avoid after the one "service provider" that you orginally relied on left you out in the rain? Or what about the minor problem you might have, that you can only patch'n crack the games that you played last as you probably won't have every game in your library downloaded on your harddrive ?

Very often, especially with Linux versions where the initial port might not be perfect. I have never felt inconvenienced by an upgrade. I have plenty of games and I'm not going to spit the dummy if I can't play a game for half an hour while it updates. Rather I'm grateful that I don't have to check for updates manually. I can see this would be a problem for people on dailup, with only one game, or having an angry temperament.

Or people that don't have a lot of time on their hands, and just want to spend the hour they could corner for one of their favourite hobbies, actually playing, not staring at a progress bar.

I think there is often less need for hacking wine when installing a game through steam, it tends to just work.

Tell me one good reason why that should be the case

Steam gives unlimited keys to developers, free of charge, so they can give free steam keys along with their own sales. So you can get the DRM-free version and the Steam version together at no extra cost, it's not one or the other. This addresses the unlikely "what if Valve goes out of business" scenario.

Can you give me link to anything official from valve to back that up ? And looking at this, I have a hard time believing that, unless they changed to that "key model" after 03/2013

 

[sswam]

- port Steam to run on Linux

- selling Linux games on their store

- port many of their games to run on Linux / OpenGL

- open-sourcing various software to help with porting games to Linux / OpenGL - https://github.com/ValveSoftware

- outspoken in support of Linux gaming

They are not doing that for gamers on Linux, they are doing that to push their plattform into a new area - the living room.

 I don't really care what their motivations are, it doesn't matter. Regardless of the motivations there is a huge benefit for gaming on Linux. Many companies are doing Linux ports because Valve is supporting Linux. Gabe is publicly very positive about gaming on Linux "It feels a little bit funny coming here and telling you guys that Linux and open source are the future of gaming," Newell said. "It's sort of like going to Rome and teaching Catholicism to the pope." SteamOS is designed to be hackable, and while it is focused around Steam it does not try to prevent the user from running non-steam games and apps.

In my opinion, the three biggest contributors to gaming on Linux are:

1. wine (and crossover)

2. humble bundle

3. valve / steam

A few years back we had stuff all good games on Linux, now we have enough great games to keep me playing happily probably for the rest of my life. Valve's decision to support Linux with Steam and their own games is a big part of that.

I haven't used them, but their libraries for OpenGL debugging and for porting Direct X games to OpenGL are not focused around Steam, and might be useful for other game developers. Sharing this code is in Valve's interests, but I appreciate it regardless of their motivations. They are voluntarily releasing code to open source, under a good license, and I applaud that.

Valve also contributes to llvm, SDL2, and video drivers.

- creating a version of Linux designed for gaming with Steam (SteamOS)

- "Steam Boxes", which will run Linux based on Debian, not locked down

I don't see why this has anything to do with doing something for gaming on linux. If that would be the case, google would be the greatest contributor to games on linux with Android > both provide an alternative "middleware/user interface" on hardware that runs a customized Linux kernel and design recommendations for the hardware.

No, SteamOS is more or less regular x86 Debian plus the steam client. All games that run on SteamOS will run on regular Linux, too (and vice versa). Valve has said they will not have any "exclusives" for SteamOS. Many of the developers who port their games to Linux so they can run on Steam Boxes, will release DRM-free versions too.

But that either Valve or I decide that we don't wan't to do business anymore with each other at a certain point.

For your side, it seems you already don't want to do business with Valve. For me, I doubt I will choose to quit using Steam. But yes, that might be a concern. However if I am pissed off with Valve, I expect thousands other customers will be pissed off too, and Valve will work to fix what is wrong. They are quite responsive to criticism.

And why are you so sure you can just "patch or crack" a game especially if its a "not so widespread known title" that big cracker groups may not even know it ?

Most of the not so widespread titles are released in DRM-free bundles, so I already have get them that way.

If I don't have the game downloaded already I would get it off bittorrent or similar.

I never heard of a game that hadn't been cracked, maybe there is one!

Or people that don't have a lot of time on their hands, and just want to spend the hour they could corner for one of their favourite hobbies, actually playing, not staring at a progress bar.

Do you even use Steam? Did you personally experience annoyance with this? I know some people did, but I didn't. As you said, games don't upgrade every day. It's a minor annoyance at worst. But yeah, they could improve that.

I think there is often less need for hacking wine when installing a game through steam, it tends to just work.

Tell me one good reason why that should be the case

Steam installs needed libraries and such, perhaps it does that better than non-steam game releases tend to do.

Steam gives unlimited keys to developers, free of charge, so they can give free steam keys along with their own sales. So you can get the DRM-free version and the Steam version together at no extra cost, it's not one or the other. This addresses the unlikely "what if Valve goes out of business" scenario.

Can you give me link to anything official from valve to back that up ? And looking at this, I have a hard time believing that, unless they changed to that "key model" after 03/2013

"Once your game is accepted for distribution on Steam, we will give you as many keys for your game as you want at no cost"

http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight/faq/

Valve doesn't make money from games that activate on steam but are sold outside steam, only when they are sold on the Steam store. But of course anything that brings people to the Steam store and its highly effective marketing is going to make money for Valve in the long run.

"There’s no charge for bandwidth, updating, or activation of copies at retail or from third-party digital distributors."

http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/

 

[thatgui]

I don't really care what their motivations are, it doesn't matter. Regardless of the motivations there is a huge benefit for gaming on Linux. Many companies are doing Linux ports because Valve is supporting Linux. Gabe is publicly very positive about gaming on Linux "It feels a little bit funny coming here and telling you guys that Linux and open source are the future of gaming," Newell said. "It's sort of like going to Rome and teaching Catholicism to the pope." SteamOS is designed to be hackable, and while it is focused around Steam it does not try to prevent the user from running non-steam games and apps.

What else should he have told them ? "It feels a little bit funny coming here, telling you that we want to leave windows behind in the long run and push into new markets, but at the same time the only thing we can do is give a good example and port our titles to Linux. But with middleware beeing more and more important though, I'm sure big publishers will more and more go the extra mile in order to bring great games and their drm system to Linux. Ahh and there is the open source thingy, I'll guess we have to .. Wait .... what did someone just ask?.. making the steam client open source?... well... a big nono". That would have been a lot more realistic, but whould that have created a positive buzz about Steam for Linux, I guess not

I haven't used them, but their libraries for OpenGL debugging and for porting Direct X games to OpenGL are not focused around Steam, and might be useful for other game developers. Sharing this code is in Valve's interests, but I appreciate it regardless of their motivations. They are voluntarily releasing code to open source, under a good license, and I applaud that.


Valve also contributes to llvm, SDL2, and video drivers.

did not know that, thanks for the correction 

No, SteamOS is more or less regular x86 Debian plus the steam client. All games that run on SteamOS will run on regular Linux, too (and vice versa). Valve has said they will not have any "exclusives" for SteamOS. Many of the developers who port their games to Linux so they can run on Steam Boxes, will release DRM-free versions too.

Thats true, it would be a lot harder to port a Android game to Linux then it would be to remove everything that relies on the steam client software in order to make it workable on "any" Linux environment.


But the essential part is that in both cases you need some sort of environment in order to run the games beeing the Steam client or Androids infrastructure.

For your side, it seems you already don't want to do business with Valve. For me, I doubt I will choose to quit using Steam. But yes, that might be a concern. However if I am pissed off with Valve, I expect thousands other customers will be pissed off too, and Valve will work to fix what is wrong. They are quite responsive to criticism.

A lot of examples in the past show that people are seeing the end of the industry nearing and state that they wont tolerate that (look at the various outrages about online activations over the past years), but in the end they just buy the next game they absolutely need to play, regardless of the outrages outcome. Why not? Its convenient, non obstrusive, and ultimatly what do I care about the things I said some days ago ?

Most of the not so widespread titles are released in DRM-free bundles, so I already have get them that way.


If I don't have the game downloaded already I would get it off bittorrent or similar.


I never heard of a game that hadn't been cracked, maybe there is one!

Can't argue against that, if you don't have any problem getting illegal, that is your choice - but I would not want that.

Do you even use Steam? Did you personally experience annoyance with this? I know some people did, but I didn't. As you said, games don't upgrade every day. It's a minor annoyance at worst. But yeah, they could improve that.

Friends and my new neighbour, probably my kids in a few years

Steam installs needed libraries and such, perhaps it does that better than non-steam game releases tend to do.

And a normal installer, packaged by the publisher/developer would not accomplish that ?

"Once your game is accepted for distribution on Steam, we will give you as many keys for your game as you want at no cost"

http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight/faq/

Does any game has to go trough greenlight ?

 

[sswam]

Can't argue against that, if you don't have any problem getting illegal, that is your choice - but I would not want that.

Well, I do pirate some things. I definitely would have no problem downloading a DRM-free or cracked version of a game that I already payed for! and neither should anyone have a problem with that (unless afraid to be caught or something).

Do you even use Steam? Did you personally experience annoyance with this? I know some people did, but I didn't. As you said, games don't upgrade every day. It's a minor annoyance at worst. But yeah, they could improve that.

Friends and my new neighbour, probably my kids in a few years

so are your friends and neighbour complaining how awful steam is, or saying how great it is, or "meh"?

"Once your game is accepted for distribution on Steam, we will give you as many keys for your game as you want at no cost"

http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight/faq/

Does any game has to go trough greenlight ?

Not sure what you mean. They give unlimited steam keys to the developer, regardless of greenlight or what. That's good business sense anyway.

As for fucking DVD / blu-ray DRM, the disks don't even work when you buy them. And, it doesn't prevent pirating it. So I will just pirate that media, and occasionally buy one to see if they've removed the DRM yet. It's like the opposite of the situation in gaming, with humble bundle and steam. Humble bundle and steam are giving me great value, with added value, and inoffensive DRM that doesn't get in my way. DVDs and blu-rays these days on the contrary won't even play properly on my linux box. They are killing themselves with DRM like that.

If you would avoid every game that has some copy-protection (i.e. DRM) then you would miss out on many many excellent classic and modern games. I think that over-zealous.

Steam is the least annoying DRM system I've encountered, doesn't bother me, I even like it.

 

[thatgui]

so are your friends and neighbour complaining how awful steam is, or saying how great it is, or "meh"?

No they usually don't complain about steam, mostly we are talking about the games they play. Sometimes they are upset about the fact that they could not play a game in the 30,45,x min of spare time they got inbetween two things as Steam forced an update for a game on them. And (as I already wrote here) my neighbour recently complained as he had bought some games in sale via the Steam Android app but could not play them as he had no broadband internet connection over the last months (due to the non existance of a physical connection) to download them.

Not sure what you mean. They give unlimited steam keys to the developer, regardless of greenlight or what. That's good business sense anyway.

The reason why I asked was that I was not able to find the passage about unlimited steam keys on the site your second link, linked to - everything I could find about that was linked to the Greenlight program. And I'm still wondering why the devs in the case I linked to, did not just send out new keys to the customers who bought the stolen keys. While they would still have a monetary loss, at least they would have made their customers happy.

As for fucking DVD / blu-ray DRM, the disks don't even work when you buy them. And, it doesn't prevent pirating it. So I will just pirate that media, and occasionally buy one to see if they've removed the DRM yet. It's like the opposite of the situation in gaming, with humble bundle and steam. Humble bundle and steam are giving me great value, with added value, and inoffensive DRM that doesn't get in my way. DVDs and blu-rays these days on the contrary won't even play properly on my linux box. They are killing themselves with DRM like that.

Is this some kind non-European or USA+CA+AUS problem? We buy some DVD/Blu-ray disc now and then, but never got any problems (well except mechanical), and we never needed a firmware update of sorts - our (and probably 70% of all other in this country) Blu-ray player never had any connection to any network.

If you would avoid every game that has some copy-protection (i.e. DRM) then you would miss out on many many excellent classic and modern games. I think that over-zealous.

But thats the situation I'm in, and while I would love to play some of these games, (as wizardstan elaborately explained) there are plenty of other fish in the sea.

 

[WizardStan]

But thats the situation I'm in, and while I would love to play some of these games, (as wizardstan elaborately explained) there are plenty of other fish in the sea.

Woooo!

 

[TrashyMG]

I'm glad I'm not burdened by such self restrictions.

 

[_jr_]

I suspect that even restricting yourself to libre games running on the Pandora is not that difficult a challenge if your gaming time is (externally) limited to a few hours per week (like it is for most adults with a family).

 

[sswam]

As for fucking DVD / blu-ray DRM

Is this some kind non-European or USA+CA+AUS problem? We buy some DVD/Blu-ray disc now and then, but never got any problems (well except mechanical), and we never needed a firmware update of sorts - our (and probably 70% of all other in this country) Blu-ray player never had any connection to any network.

I would like to be able to play my discs on my blu-ray player which is in my PC, which runs Linux. However the movies companies apparently wish to prevent me playing the discs I payed for. The last 3 discs I bought all don't work due to varying copy protection, region locking and such, it's quicker to download the torrent that to try and make the discs work.

Steam is the opposite, it's quicker and easier to install and play and update games using Steam than any alternative I've tried, including DRM-free games from GOG and humble bundle. I still buy games through humble bundle / humble store / humble widget by preference since I get a steam key and the DRM-free at no extra cost, and more of the money goes to the developer.

 

[Klumpen]

Interesting read:

http://www.lexi-alexander.com/blog/2014/6/1/will-the-real-pirates-please-stand-up

But guess what, for every IP block, DRM and who-knows-what security feature Hollywood spends thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on, some piracy kid will undo it for free and within a couple of minutes.

And this is my favorite part:  I am 100% certain that the hacking of entertainment industry's security features provides better entertainment for these kids than the entertainment we're trying to prevent them from stealing. Let that sink in for a second, then try not to bust up laughing.

 

[rygD]

Interesting read:

http://www.lexi-alexander.com/blog/2014/6/1/will-the-real-pirates-please-stand-up

But guess what, for every IP block, DRM and who-knows-what security feature Hollywood spends thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on, some piracy kid will undo it for free and within a couple of minutes.

And this is my favorite part:  I am 100% certain that the hacking of entertainment industry's security features provides better entertainment for these kids than the entertainment we're trying to prevent them from stealing. Let that sink in for a second, then try not to bust up laughing.

Great quote.  Very true.

 

[sswam]

Interesting read:

http://www.lexi-alexander.com/blog/2014/6/1/will-the-real-pirates-please-stand-up

But guess what, for every IP block, DRM and who-knows-what security feature Hollywood spends thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on, some piracy kid will undo it for free and within a couple of minutes.

And this is my favorite part:  I am 100% certain that the hacking of entertainment industry's security features provides better entertainment for these kids than the entertainment we're trying to prevent them from stealing. Let that sink in for a second, then try not to bust up laughing.

Well, some people without hacking skills might copy DVDs and CDs in privacy, but be unwilling to download torrents from the internet for fear of getting caught (or they might have slow internet).  DRM on CDs, DVDs and games does stop those people, so there is some benefit to the publishers.  However it also pisses off a lot of other people, which is bad for the publishers.  Not sure if it's a net win or loss for them.  In my opinion Steam is good "DRM done right" because on the whole Steam provides a valuable service even apart from the DRM, and the DRM actually can help prevent cheating in multiplayer.  It's actually useful, doesn't get in my way, and doesn't piss me off.

 

[Klumpen]

Paulo Coelho on the matter as an author:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/feb/01/paulo-coelho-readers-pirate-books

 

[thatgui]

Grist to the mill

 

[Orkekum]

*grabs popcorn*


I like steam.

 

[_jr_]

The non perpetual license issue is an interesting angle. It allows to make more content available with the same budget, but in a steam type environment requires some content to be removed after release. I'd hate that, but the people bying and playing games directly after release may get more bang for their buck.

 

[Klumpen]

Grist to the mill

Oh dear, it's like you got something in a shop and then the owner comes to your house to take parts of it away so you want to buy it again, mean stuff.

 

[Klumpen]

Some interesting perspective from author Neil Gaiman:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/0Qkyt1wXNlI?feature=oembed