Well i can't argue with that, i just wanted to state my opinion.
Fair enough, i just don't trust the Steam client.
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DRM wars (Steam, Origin, Starforce, Battle.net, installation limits, etc...)
- Thread starter Klumpen
- Start date
WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
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And I'm hoping to change your opinion just a little to shape it into a useful tool which will be used to teach others about great games they probably never heard of.
So this doesn't bother you?
Letting them take away from you what you legally bought? Just like that?
They can do that anytime, you gave them all possible rights.
Vote with your wallet guys, don't give companies like these too much power.
Although I may think the same about the company you work for, so we may never aggree on this.
There were some games like "Fallout - New Vegas", "Super Street Fighter IV - Arcade Edition", "Portal", "Injustice - Gods Among Us" and "Magicka"
which I didn't buy because of audacious DRM although I really wanted them, but no game is worth more than my consumer rights, not even Fallout-NV (and as an old Fallout fan, I wouldn't want to play any game as much as this one, especcially since it seems to be way more true to the series than Fallout3)...
With every penny you give to those people, you make stuff like this more common.
I aggree with WizardStan and say "give your money to those that behave nicely and less control-freakish", you got more time for games from them this way and the variety of good (and cheap!) games is huge today.
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Well, if i know about a great game that others have probably never heard of, i will let them know about that. I think i'm more of a console gamer, but i don't like the current generation consoles. At the moment, i'm playing mainly N64 (i need to finish Majoras Mask^^) and PS1/2.
BTW if you know of any great PC horror game, that falls into your described category, let me know about it.
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To prevent this thread from derailing:
http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16031-recommended-horror-games/
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Doesn't bug me at all. If you read the follow up on the original Forbes report, only the multiplayer aspect of the game was removed entirely which was rendered useless due to server shutdowns , the single player aspect of the game still is available.
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levi
Still fresh, damnit!
I haven't installed Steam on my Linux computers yet, mainly because I don't have a machine running currently that could run much of the stuff on Steam, but partly because of the reasons outlined here.
It's mainly because I don't want to run closed source stuff that I can't investigate on a production system where I'm doing stuff that's important to me. I'd have to get a performant computer just for use with Steam, and figure out how to isolate it on the network, which hasn't presented me as a worthwhile expense yet.
I especially don't think Bjorn should shut up here. His opinion may be unusual on a gaming forum, where most of us are used to oppressive practices from big corporations, but his popping up just points out to people here that other opinions exist, and unless he starts going on about it in inappropriate threads, I don't have an issue. This is the perfect thread for the discussion.
It's mainly because I don't want to run closed source stuff that I can't investigate on a production system where I'm doing stuff that's important to me. I'd have to get a performant computer just for use with Steam, and figure out how to isolate it on the network, which hasn't presented me as a worthwhile expense yet.
I especially don't think Bjorn should shut up here. His opinion may be unusual on a gaming forum, where most of us are used to oppressive practices from big corporations, but his popping up just points out to people here that other opinions exist, and unless he starts going on about it in inappropriate threads, I don't have an issue. This is the perfect thread for the discussion.
Simple: people who`d like to play AAA games on their PC. Generalising, because there`s also Origin and Uplay (though I suppose these crossover with Steam sometime too) but as we all well know Steam has near-monopoly.Who needs Steam?
Now, I always steered clear of their operation, just like any other DRM -infested rubbish, but as long as it was just a store, they didn`t bother me that much (apart from the zealots from The Church Of Gabe, but that`s another story). But that situation changed since the introduction of Steamworks - that evil piece of crap that started appearing on physical copies of games. So now you don`t just need Steam account for online games - it`s Steam or nothing baby!
Now, I`m used to the people on other forums defending them with near-religious zeal, but it`s bit sad to see the apologists even here, on a forum dedicated to an open-source handheld. Especially with quotes like WizardStan`s
I mean, WTF? So everybody should just shut up & toe the line, because...what? It`s annoying? I`m sure most of the powermongers from all walks of life would just love this attitude applied to whatever BS is being peddled at the moment. And of course, this "accomplishes nothing" clause couldn`t be more wrong - sometimes it does not but sometimes it does - vide Xbox 1 launch, to name the most recent example.
The "go play indies instead" line of thought is also nonsensical - well, ummm, no thank you, I just want to play Skyrim, okay? Just and example, personally I play retro/indie/AAA games and don`t begrudge anybody who chooses to stick to only one of these angles, but let`s not get ridiculous here.
Now, this topic is quite likely a lost cause - the land was conquered and divided and there won`t be any changes in the status quo. People have been brainwashed into thinking there`s "not so bad" DRM like Steam through their famous firesale tactics (while most their games remain at ridiculous higher-than-physical prices) and instead concentrated on Evil EA and Ubisoft (though most their games work like Steam - only need single activation) - but they make for good villains, so everything`s cool.
Not many people know that last year few people in Germany got together and tried to launch a lawsuit against Steam, after their TOS changed. i don`t remember the details, it was either about the right to resale digital content or the new TOS itself - anyway, they`ve been instantly told that if they keep complaining they`ll lose their accounts including the games. A thing that happened before to many people who have been found in breach of Steam`s small print - sometimes without any good reason.
Welcome to the "Good" DRM World folks.
WizardStan
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No, I'm right, complaining doesn't solve anything.You want people to stop using Steam, give them alternatives. Spend energy finding good games that don't use DRM and telling people about those.
This distinction is actually very important, and I'll explain why in a second.
You can't. They chose to put some DRM that you disagree with. It is neither within your power nor your right to force anyone to give you something. If they want to add all kinds of crap in their game like DRM, that is their prerogative, and expecting them to change because you want to play their game is entitlement at its finest.It doesn't matter how much you want to play it, there is literally no way for you to play the game, hold to your beliefs, and make things better, so you have no choice but to forget about it and play something else.
You think they'll listen to you? Someday drop the DRM just because you bugged them enough? Hell no. Only when the number of "we will buy this without DRM" numbers are high enough. Know how to make that number higher? By convincing a lot of people to stop spending money on DRMed games and instead focusing on non-DRMed games. You want things to change, do some actual work, get out there, find some good games that are in line with your beliefs, and promote the hell out of them! When people start spending money on games without DRM the major companies will start to listen, and some of them have! Several major companies are tentatively releasing games without DRM: BUY THEM! Tell others to buy them! Find as many games that align with your views as you can and convince as many people as possible to spend all their money on those games. That works, that is causing change.
Know what isn't causing change? Know what people have tried for over a decade without any change? Complaining about it.
Who said that? (And what do you have against indie? Gameplay and design is way better in many cases.)
Most of my games on GoG are not indie and some of them are not even old.
There even was Stronghold HD on IndieRoyale and Bastion (Warner Brothers) on HumbleBundle although btw.
Abstinence is a virtue most of the time when it comes to moral conflicts.
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thatgui
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I don't see why these things need to be mutually exclusive. You are right, that the best course of action is to promote DRM - free games/plattforms, which I do with trying to point people to gog.com on a regular basis. But I also will complain about DRM (beeing it Steam or any other form) where I see fit. Just because I want to draw attention to the topic and keep the discussion alive ! Why else should people be interested in things I try to promote if I am not allowed to talk about the benefits I deem important enough for them to consider alternatives.
If I recommend a game to a friend that is available both, on Steam and on gog, and he agrees that it is interesting, I'am not allowed to persuade him to buy it on gog instead of going the DRM - Route? Why recommend it in the first place (in the sense of promoting DRM free content(providers)) then ?
Or simply out of beeing selfish: I would really like to play Bioshock Infinite. But I simply can't because I don't want to support a DRM plattform. Why should I not be allowed to complain about it - because the publisher(or producer/manufacturer in general) probably won't notice it? What if I have a blog with a certain range of influence, am I allowed to complain then ? If so, is there a table where I can look up If I'm already allowed to complain ? What If other people notice that I'm complaining, and think the same thing, in the end forming a group of like minded people - are they allowed to complain then as the group may have a noticeable size?
And to go on a more general route again: If no one complains, how should a manufacturer know whats wrong with his product ? Small intelectual game:
We have two companies, both developed a plattform game, one with a western theme and the other company one with a Scifi theme. Company A (western) decides to use DRM, Company B does not. After some month it turns out that Company As product is less successfull than Company Bs. How should Company A determine what they did "wrong" (in a sales context), if no one is allowed to complain ? Was it the theme that wasn't very popular at that time, the gfx, the charakter the story, maybe even the DRM ? In an ideal world, maybe the would look at all the positive things people said (but that creates the problem that you can be indirectly negative with a positive comment: making DRM-free a positive property, suggest that DRM is something negative), but (unfortunatly) the human mind does not work that way as most people usually only get vocal if they don't like something.
Or turn the outcome upside down: Company As product turns out to be more successfull and the company is happy with the sales figures they got. But maybe they would have sold a couple of thousand copies more if their product would have been drm free. How should they know ? No one is allowed to complain about things they don't like, so they can't see any negative feedback it that regard.
And while negativity (in general) isn't a good thing per se, it also can be valuable input: Yesterday I read an article about the looong way from "System Shock 3" to Bioshock with a paragraph about a "live" test several weeks before the release date. And the interesting part for the designers/developers wasn't the positive things the test group had to say about it, but the complaints.
I'd pay 45€ or even more for Fallout: New Vegas if it was DRM-free. I never paid that much for a video game, but since I boycot DRM and am no pirate, I can not play it, no matter how much I want to.
Somehow I wish companies would notice that they lose sales because of DRM all the time and maybe they wouldn't make a loss if they just don't add it.
Implementing it is additional work for them and makes people like us not buy the game (no matter how awesome it may be), since it makes additional hassles for honest customers, people might even be more encouraged to pirate it (the pirated version is free of this stuff), as seen in some of the articles linked here.
There are more games I would have bought if there wouldn't have been DRM in it, like
Super Street Fighter IV - Arcade Edition
Diablo 3
Starcraft 2
Skyrim
Mafia 2
Bioshock 1+2
Portal
Half-Life 2 (The later versions in Germany forced you to Steam...)
Injustice - Gods Among Us
Magicka
Those are all lost sales and I'd like companies to notice this.
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thatgui
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The same here, I don't need every game to be "artsy" or "indie", I am happy with a "blockbuster title" now and then too. But I would already be happy if they would offer a "delayed" model:I can understand that companies want to protect their sales figures through a DRM system. But as far as I understand it most publisher don't believe that DRM will offer full protection from pirating, but delays pirating in a bigger scale so it isn't influenceing their sales figures in the first few important weeks significantly. So why not use DRM to "protect" their investment for the first few months and after that offering a DRM free version afterwards. I would have no problem waiting one year for a title I have interest in, if I could buy it without DRM (even if the price would be higher as the DRMed version - with limits) then.
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ElPoco
Hardcore Member
This morning I wondered if it wouldn't be more efficient not to boycott games with DRM but to buy them and then request a refund because the DRM prevented you from playing it. A company won't really notice a DRM boycott unless the numbers are very high, but having many support tickets about DRM failure that ends up in "could not fix / client refunded" might get more attention.
thatgui
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Does Steam even offer refunds ? gog.com does, as long as you did not download the title, maybe they have something similar ? I could only find this:
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=8360-wejc-2625#refund
but even if they offered refunds, I guess you quickly loose your account, if they see that you are a "no drm" - troll
Edit:
I interpret that as: As soon as the game is added to your account (this does not require downloading it) you loose the ability to request a refund.
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I don't care about DRM.
All Console Games are DRM.
All I want is to own the Game, not only a license.
I want to be able to play the game in 20 years as well when the client is not supported any more.
That's what I want.
I have no problem with a CD-key I have to use to play the game as long as I can use it on as many machines I want to.
(Age of Empires 3 is a good example. I can install it on every of my computers and do that in 20 years as well).
All Console Games are DRM.
All I want is to own the Game, not only a license.
I want to be able to play the game in 20 years as well when the client is not supported any more.
That's what I want.
I have no problem with a CD-key I have to use to play the game as long as I can use it on as many machines I want to.
(Age of Empires 3 is a good example. I can install it on every of my computers and do that in 20 years as well).
WizardStan
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Strictly speaking they don't, but when you're complaining about games that you can't play because of DRM with no mention of all the games that you can it makes your argument seem one sided... like a vegetarian complaining that they can't eat anything because steak isn't vegetarian when the salad bar is RIGHT THERE!"I want to play that game, but it has DRM" is like saying "I want to eat bacon but I won't eat meat". "Well, there's soy bacon" I might suggest, to which the response "that stuff is crap, I want real bacon" will get some disdained looks.
