Debs resigns

[CocoCreekFisherman]

WizardStan, people can be conditioned to perform certain actions triggered by certain stimuli, just like most semi-intelligent animals. It's been proven countless times in psychological studies. Conditioned responses are not conscious choices, ergo not all actions are a result of choice. To state categorically that an abused woman who kills her husband always made the choice is (again) extremely naive and suggests limited life experience. 


You can fluff it up with all the philosophical wankery that you like but the fact is people do not always make conscious decisions for their actions. They're not always choices. Try reading a few psychology textbooks and lay off the philosophy pseudo-science.

 
If you start from this angle, it is all the way back to square one - the definition of free will in a societies context - something wizardstan deliberately tried to avoid (with good reason)

Moxie, I don't think anybody gets what WizardStan is saying[except you and a few ] and no I won't drop it as you rudely suggest. Really...

I think wizardstans argumentation is perfectly fine, the only thing I critize is him calling you an idiot (or something in that line, can't remember right now) it was unneccessary and uncalled for.
But utilizing your logic this would be your fault alone, as you repeatedly denied his attempts to get involved in his argumentation and examples, thus practically forcing him to take "harsher" actions.

I don't understand his argumentation and examples at all..do you?

Do you even see my veiwpoint? ,,,and now I am told by Moxie to drop it like a mother tells a child. Very insulting and demeaning by my standards.

You can't make valid points by resorting to cursing,threats, name calling, and insulting . For me wizard is just too wordy and talks in angry,scattered circles and moxie is as confusing especially when I read an analogy trying to be made quoting greek mythology!!

Again all I said was Craig was responsible for all of the negative attention shown by these people and these people acted this way as a direct result of Craig's inability to run a company properly. Then I say this is human nature and was angrily responded too and it was all downhill from that point on.

I disagree and they cannot handle it. Why am I being attacked? I do believe this became personal with them in regards to me.

Just agree to disagree and get on with it but apparently I am beneath that courtesy from them both...moxie and wizard.

 

[thatgui]

I don't understand his argumentation and examples at all..do you?

As said, I do.

Do you even see my veiwpoint? ,,,and now I am told by Moxie to drop it like a mother tells a child. Very insulting and demeaning by my standards.

I did understand what you where trying to say, but I can't agree with your view on the topic discussed here (except with the name calling part of course). I did not think moxies post was insulting or demeaning, but I'm not that (emotionally) "involved" in this discussion.

You can't make valid points by resorting to cursing, name calling and getting personal. For me wizard is just too wordy and talks in circles as does moxie especially when I read a analogy trying to be made quoting greek mythology!!

I do not see wizardstan going around in cricles, but just beeing persistent and trying to deliver its arguments in various forms, because you did not really got involved in the discussion but merely "stayed where you where" without really enganging (this probably comes out the wrong way, too late, too much blood alcohol, too dumb to fully comprehend the english language and avoid its pitfalls).I also can't see anything wrong with moxie making a little trip into greek mythology - it served the purpose of adding some color to the discussion quite well.

One last thing, if you edit your post after you replied, please leave an edit mark (only correcting grammer is an exception, of course) this helps other people following the discussion a lot. You already added something to your post twice while I was writing this.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

I don't understand his argumentation and examples at all..do you?

As said, I do.

Do you even see my veiwpoint? ,,,and now I am told by Moxie to drop it like a mother tells a child. Very insulting and demeaning by my standards.

I did understand what you where trying to say, but I can't agree with your view on the topic discussed here (except with the name calling part of course). I did not think moxies post was insulting or demeaning, but I'm not that (emotionally) "involved" in this discussion.

You can't make valid points by resorting to cursing, name calling and getting personal. For me wizard is just too wordy and talks in circles as does moxie especially when I read a analogy trying to be made quoting greek mythology!!

I do not see wizardstan going around in cricles, but just beeing persistent and trying to deliver its arguments in various forms, because you did not really got involved in the discussion but merely "stayed where you where" without really enganging (this probably comes out the wrong way, too late, too much blood alcohol, too dumb to fully comprehend the english language and avoid its pitfalls).
I also can't see anything wrong with moxie making a little trip into greek mythology - it served the purpose of adding some color to the discussion quite well.


One last thing, if you edit your post after you replied, please leave an edit mark (only correcting grammer is an exception, of course) this helps other people following the discussion a lot. You already added something to your post twice while I was writing this.

it was spelling errors I never get it right the first time. I will leave an edit mark if I choose to thank you.

Ok so you disagree with me and I except that. I too disagree with your posts. I will never understand anyone who has to deliver his message in various forms as you say.

I do not know why you say things like 'too dumb to fully comprehend the english language' and too much blood alcohol. You are as insulting as them. Go away and make fun of another. You are of the same lot as them I see.

What I said was clear and concise. I need not talk in various forms to make a point  right or wrong.

 

[Timstertoo]

/>


I don't understand his argumentation and examples at all..do you?


As said, I do.


Do you even see my veiwpoint? ,,,and now I am told by Moxie to drop it like a mother tells a child. Very insulting and demeaning by my standards.


I did understand what you where trying to say, but I can't agree with your view on the topic discussed here (except with the name calling part of course). I did not think moxies post was insulting or demeaning, but I'm not that (emotionally) "involved" in this discussion.


You can't make valid points by resorting to cursing, name calling and getting personal. For me wizard is just too wordy and talks in circles as does moxie especially when I read a analogy trying to be made quoting greek mythology!!


I do not see wizardstan going around in cricles, but just beeing persistent and trying to deliver its arguments in various forms, because you did not really got involved in the discussion but merely "stayed where you where" without really enganging (this probably comes out the wrong way, too late, too much blood alcohol, too dumb to fully comprehend the english language and avoid its pitfalls).


I also can't see anything wrong with moxie making a little trip into greek mythology - it served the purpose of adding some color to the discussion quite well.


One last thing, if you edit your post after you replied, please leave an edit mark (only correcting grammer is an exception, of course) this helps other people following the discussion a lot. You already added something to your post twice while I was writing this.


it was spelling errors I never get it right the first time. I will leave an edit mark if I choose to thank you.


Ok so you disagree with me and I except that. I too disagree with your posts. I will never understand anyone who has to deliver his message in various forms as you say.


I do not know why you say things like 'too dumb to fully comprehend the english language' and too much blood alcohol. You are as insulting as them. Go away and make fun of another. You are of the same lot as them I see.


What I said was clear and concise. I need not talk in various forms to make a point right or wrong.

I think he was referring to himself regarding the blood alcohol and dumb bit.

 

[FaeMinx]

This is absurd!


Guys. I can see both your points (wizard and coco), and all the periphery perspectives owned by other participants in this dialogue.


Hey guys, guess what... You are *ALL* correct!


However, it is by forcing the other guys statements to directly relate to your own position that has turned this into an inconsolable argument.


Your arguments are all true relative to your own experiences of 'reality' up untill this point. None of you are entirely correct (a truth that embraces all-perspectives/truths and thus can be said to be true regardless of circumstance / experience)... and none of you are entirely wrong either.


You are talking across each other.


There is no intention to find common ground / mutual understanding here. Only a stubborn solidification of your position that you keep repeating over and over in different variations under the illusion the other person will secede and admit the validity of your argument. It has even devolved to the point where you are both calling into question each other's character as evidence to disqualify what you perceive as the opposing (thus incorrect) argument.


I find this ridiculous and pointless, and wonder why you are even bothering.


Getting upset because someone doesn't get you or what you are trying to convey is absurd.


They just don't get you. Do you get them? Does it actually matter?

 

[moxie]

We can agree to disagree and close this topic but you both would rather dismiss me as an idiot. I am hurt by this and feel both of your wrath towards me is personal and I think I know why. This is disturbing to me.

If you see "wrath" anywhere then I think that proves my point. Is this an angry discussion?

In my eyes I just don't think you or wizard are good communicators but rather mega worded individuals poorly attempting to be intellectual and correct all the time.

...or you might be a rather careless reader. Which I don't say to be mean (no wrath here), but since you are arguing against points that where never made, not by WizardStan nor by me, and since you change the subject and refuse to answer when this is pointed out, then this might just be the case. You read carelessly and doesn't want to check your facts. There are several cases, in this thread, where you've been asked to "Show me where I've said anything like that?". You have, as far as I can see, ignored them all.

Or, you just don't want to accept the fact that you, and you alone, are responsible for your actions. That is, barring coercion (of which "long-time and deliberate psychological conditioning" might well be a case) or insanity. That is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people - The public debate is full of people who want to blame their actions on others. "Look, he walks in here with a [some football team] scarf on, he is asking for a beating" "If she goes out dressed like that, that means she wanted it" "Look, this is the internet. _You go on the internet, you have to be able to take the heat or GTFO". If I wanted to be analytical, I might argue that your position of not checking and not answering as per the above paragraph might suggest this, too - "No, I'm certain you wrote that, so my argument is valid. No, I'm not going to explain". You are responsible for getting your argument right too, youknow

(Most other people in the thread *are* getting the discussion, so it can't be impossible)

And this last bit, of course, is what the whole thing is about - Individual responsibility. And having this argument in this situation, of course, presupposes a belief in (some kind of) free will, since if you are willing to put the responsibility on Craig, then you must accord him free will (otherwise, he is just as much a powerless puppet of the universe as everybody who wrote nastygrams). If you want to accord some, but not all, people free will and therefore responsiblilty for their actions, then I think you need to explain your position again You could take the position of b_o_b, and say that nobody (in the end) is responsible, but you can't really have it both ways.

 

[moxie]

Ok so you disagree with me and I except that. I too disagree with your posts. I will never understand anyone who has to deliver his message in various forms as you say.

...and just before that, you were talking about having a teacher that was totally incomprehensible, and switching to another who were explaining the same things in a better way, or something like that. What is that except trying to deliver the same message in different ways? Or can different ways of explaining never coexist in the same person, in your view?

I do not know why you say things like 'too dumb to fully comprehend the english language' and too much blood alcohol. You are as insulting as them. Go away and make fun of another. You are of the same lot as them I see.

What I said was clear and concise. I need not talk in various forms to make a point  right or wrong.

He is referring to himself ("That last bit might not have come out right..."). Please do read more carefully.

 

[Asiyura]

Does it actually matter?

It does matter, if you can find excuses to be an insulting jerk, inciting people to suicide, you can also find excuse for even worse behaviours.
Like the classic rape/sexual harassment/street harassment "excuse" : "But she was wearing a short skirt/low neckline/whatever you find sexy! I couldn't resist, she provoked me!"

That's wrong, any sane human being can resist that. Even if someone was to walk around naked, that person doesn't "deserve" to be raped.

Now let me make a parallel, it's not because someone work for a deficient boss that this employee deserves to receive incitation to suicide and insults. Even more when, like Jackie and Debs, they do their best to patch up things as fast as possible.

 

[moxie]

What Kodein said. Exactly.

 

[thatgui]

it was spelling errors I never get it right the first time. I will leave an edit mark if I choose to thank you.

Spelling errors are excluded as well, just forgot to mention them. But you did not just correct errors, you were adding complete sentences.

Ok so you disagree with me and I except that. I too disagree with your posts. I will never understand anyone who has to deliver his message in various forms as you say.

You asked me about my opinion two times, and I answered you. I did not take part in the discussion at all (excluding my reference to ramboky). Wizardstan was just trying to deliver his point, and as you refused to understand what he was really getting at he tried to alter the form (not the basic message) of his arguments and added other examples to make it more clear - thats not going round in circles.

I do not know why you say things like 'too dumb to fully comprehend the english language' and too much blood alcohol. You are as insulting as them. Go away and make fun of another. You are of the same lot as them I see.


What I said was clear and concise. I need not talk in various forms to make a point  right or wrong.

I do understand know why you think moxies post was demeaning, you seemed to be rather thin skinned right now. The 'too dumb..' part was clearly targeted into my direction - if you (or someone else) did find that my formulation was misleading, please show me were I'm too vague, so I can avoid it in the future. I just can't see it right now and it doesn't make much sense either, why should someone who is in the leading group of making the most spelling/grammer errors per sentence on this board make fun of you about that or why should I want to address your blood alcohol level ?

 

[b_o_b]

I find this ridiculous and pointless, and wonder why you are even bothering.


Getting upset because someone doesn't get you or what you are trying to convey is absurd.


They just don't get you. Do you get them? Does it actually matter?

I totally agree. It should be just a nice little exchange of ideas, not worth anyone getting upset about. I see lots of comments on this board of folks really trying to get their message across. Some are very good at that, they can even make a valid point of someone with lesser skills seem invalid or even stupid. 

People with these skills should be aware they will always have the upper hand in a discussion and be gentle with the lesser skilled (and yes I am also talking about myself here). Try to understand what they say without judging. If you don't understand ask, and if they don't understand try to explain better / in other words without patronizing them. 

That will make it a more interesting discussion and people with deviating opinions will be more willing to join. 

 

[ZXDunny]

WizardStan, people can be conditioned to perform certain actions triggered by certain stimuli, just like most semi-intelligent animals. It's been proven countless times in psychological studies. Conditioned responses are not conscious choices, ergo not all actions are a result of choice.

Oh yes. I wholeheartedly agree. I was conditioned as a child - and the result is that whenever I spend a certain amount of money and wait for more than 4 years for my product I automatically sit down in front of my computer and send out emails full of hate and bile.

It's not my fault, I just don't know that I'm doing it.

D.

 

[moxie]

I find this ridiculous and pointless, and wonder why you are even bothering.


Getting upset because someone doesn't get you or what you are trying to convey is absurd.


They just don't get you. Do you get them? Does it actually matter?

I totally agree. It should be just a nice little exchange of ideas, not worth anyone getting upset about. I see lots of comments on this board of folks really trying to get their message across. Some are very good at that, they can even make a valid point of someone with lesser skills seem invalid or even stupid. 

People with these skills should be aware they will always have the upper hand in a discussion and be gentle with the lesser skilled (and yes I am also talking about myself here). Try to understand what they say without judging. If you don't understand ask, and if they don't understand try to explain better / in other words without patronizing them. 

That will make it a more interesting discussion and people with deviating opinions will be more willing to join. 

Well, yes. I do suppose you're putting me in amongst those who should beware There are two reasons I'm continuing this.

The first is that I think this is a Really Important Thing. In what Kodein expresses above, and what ZX Dunny parodied. There's a lot of trying to excuse away bad behaviour, and particularly on the net. I believe this is a proper Big Problem, and the first step against it is to not accept bad excuses for bad behaviour.

The second is that for a discussion to be civil and respectful, one of the most important lines to accept is "No, that is not what I meant at all". The proper response to this is always "Ok, my bad, what did you really mean then". This thread is full of "Oh, I can't be bothered to look, but I know what you meant, so I know you're bad!!!!" That gives me the "reply"-itch

That idea, that I know better than you what you mean, and therefore you now have to answer to why you are holding the weird opinions that I know that you do, is in my eyes extremely rude. And by this I don't mean that you cannot pick and pull at opinions -  That is "Well, if you're saying that, then that ought to mean that you're saying this too, and doesn't this lead to...". What I mean is the refusal to look back and check what was actually written, and the refusal to accept a clarification.

Without this, it is impossible to have a civil discussion.

 

[klapse]

Perhaps Debs was also getting sick of the delays and general failure of Product 3, LLC to deliver a product.

 

[EvilDragon]

Perhaps Debs was also getting sick of the delays and general failure of Product 3, LLC to deliver a product.

Except for that Product 3 LLC never had to release a product. That company was just created because Kickstarter didn't allow non-US projects back then and Craig is not UK based.


Product LLC was just to get the money and handle the transfers to the different companies. The full production and organization was iControlPad Ltds job.


In my opinion, Craig knew from the very beginning the iCP2 couldn't be delivered in time. That, or he is just plain dumb, which I certainly don't think.


My personal realistic guess when Kickstarter was finished for the original (non-LEDed) iCP2 was April / May.


Based on my experience, Craig rather promises stuff people want to hear (unrealistic delivery dates, etc.) to get higher sales than make realistic details and lose sales with that.


True, in the end, he'd have more sales as not so many will ask for a refund...


This is exactly what I don't like and why I would never start another project with him. That's why decided to NOT be in the iCP2 team from the start as well.


So yes, in the end, he is the start of all the issues that lead to Debs leaving in my opinion.


He is not responsible for the bad emails the masses sent, but he's responsible for not keeping the masses happy which lead them to writing those mails.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

Perhaps Debs was also getting sick of the delays and general failure of Product 3, LLC to deliver a product.

Except for that Product 3 LLC never had to release a product. That company was just created because Kickstarter didn't allow non-US projects back then and Craig is not UK based.


Product LLC was just to get the money and handle the transfers to the different companies. The full production and organization was iControlPad Ltds job.


In my opinion, Craig knew from the very beginning the iCP2 couldn't be delivered in time. That, or he is just plain dumb, which I certainly don't think.


My personal realistic guess when Kickstarter was finished for the original (non-LEDed) iCP2 was April / May.


Based on my experience, Craig rather promises stuff people want to hear (unrealistic delivery dates, etc.) to get higher sales than make realistic details and lose sales with that.


True, in the end, he'd have more sales as not so many will ask for a refund...


This is exactly what I don't like and why I would never start another project with him. That's why decided to NOT be in the iCP2 team from the start as well.


So yes, in the end, he is the start of all the issues that lead to Debs leaving in my opinion.


He is not responsible for the bad emails the masses sent, but he's responsible for not keeping the masses happy which lead them to writing those mails.

I agree with that last line not because he is EvilDragon but because i agree.... also I do not have to re read as Moxie suggests to grasp the comment. Sorry Moxie but you and Wizard are like reading a bad,wordy novel  that one does not want to finish but just put down and tell others how lousy it is. Just too prolix the both of you.

@thatgui... Scroll way up if you choose.....moxie made a mean spirited,personal invitation suggesting having names to call me via another debate. I did not like that. Wizard just kept calling me an idiot and used the F word towards me....not good by me.

 

[b_o_b]

You could take the position of b_o_b, and say that nobody (in the end) is responsible, but you can't really have it both ways.

I think you can, but it does complicate matters. It depends of the level of abstraction you look at this. At the lowest level I say 'nobody is responsible' and looking at it from a higher (wizardstan calls it local) level I can see responsibility but then more from an emotional than rational point of view. I can't help myself being an emotional being so when I am punched in the face I will act as if the person doing it is responsible.   

 

The first is that I think this is a Really Important Thing. In what Kodein expresses above, and what ZX Dunny parodied. There's a lot of trying to excuse away bad behaviour, and particularly on the net. I believe this is a proper Big Problem, and the first step against it is to not accept bad excuses for bad behaviour

Bad behaviour is something that is not a universal constant. What you consider bad behaviour can be just a joke for someone else or it can be a matter of culture. When I see two men kissing, I can say that is bad behaviour, someone else can say that is love. 

Calling debs a whore is considered bad behaviour probably everywhere and I might agree, but as far as I know we haven't heard the person here explaining his action. You can not decide who is right or wrong without hearing all parties. 

I don't consider this discussion ' Really Important ' , it is just a theoretical and sometimes philosophical debate. You will not change a personality on the internet. Maybe you can explain what are you trying to achieve? Do you really think people will change behaviour because they read this thread? Do you think the people you try to convince are reading this thread? Or are you just looking for admission of guilt or admiration from peers. 

 

The second is that for a discussion to be civil and respectful, one of the most important lines to accept is "No, that is not what I meant at all". The proper response to this is always "Ok, my bad, what did you really mean then". This thread is full of "Oh, I can't be bothered to look, but I know what you meant, so I know you're bad!!!!" That gives me the "reply"-itch

 

There are always two parties involved, the sender and the receiver. Depending on how it is written the sender can say something like 'no, that is not what I meant at all', the receiver may read that as 'you are stupid because you don't understand my superiour writing'. Especially with so much different nationalities and experience level (age) on board that is not very unlikely.  I think the one with the best linguistic skills should keep an eye on that and be more careful with use of his / her words. 

 

That is "Well, if you're saying that, then that ought to mean that you're saying this too, and doesn't this lead to...". What I mean is the refusal to look back and check what was actually written, and the refusal to accept a clarification.

I haven't read every post in this thread, but that seems like a reasonable request. 

 

He is not responsible for the bad emails the masses sent, but he's responsible for not keeping the masses happy which lead them to writing those mails.

Hmm.. there seems to be a bit of a contradiction in this sentence BTW I agree, he is responsible. Oh no, damn. Nobody is... He is not! 

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

Moxie quoted ' I will have a few choice descriptions for you too'...so what did you mean?  I still say and said then that if you work for a company and are aware of foul play and do not try to better the situation then you too are culpable and deserve the rude,degrading comments as well as Craig does....yes I mean Debs,Jacquelyn,,whoever works there. The honorable thing to do would be to resign. Otherwise you deserve whatever comes.

you reap what you sow.

 

[Asiyura]

EDIT : As far as I know, except a serious lack of communication and serious delays for delivery, you have absolutely no proof that iControlPad ltd. has made any "malpractice". ED even said that many hardware parts have been ordered and are ready to be used to build iCP2 in GC factory…

 

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

@..FaeMinx thank you...that was the most respectful,thoughtful thing anyone here has addressed my way