Debs resigns

[FaeMinx]

Any truth that is absolute will appear as a paradox / contradiction to any perspective that itself is not rooted in absolute truth.


In other words, if you take a perspective that by it's nature has within it the possibility of an opposing or nullifying position, and then are met by a perspective that not only supports your position, but also the position diametrically opposed to you, then you will not be able to comprehend that all-embracing perspective. It will appear as an absurd statement of nonsense, saying nothing valid at all... Or it will be completely invisible to you.


Edit: I am not addressing anyone in particular with this post.


This post is simply a brain-fart... Possibly I myself chose to write it for reasons apparent to me, or I am mearly a vessel / instrument of some incomprehensible force responding / having a dialogue with itself via other choiceless instruments (you guys).


Maybe I Am that force in It's entirety, so am both consciously participating and making choices on the fly, and at the same time am a helpless instrument of myself that I have not yet realized.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

This is absurd!


Guys. I can see both your points (wizard and coco), and all the periphery perspectives owned by other participants in this dialogue.


Hey guys, guess what... You are *ALL* correct!


However, it is by forcing the other guys statements to directly relate to your own position that has turned this into an inconsolable argument.


Your arguments are all true relative to your own experiences of 'reality' up untill this point. None of you are entirely correct (a truth that embraces all-perspectives/truths and thus can be said to be true regardless of circumstance / experience)... and none of you are entirely wrong either.


You are talking across each other.


There is no intention to find common ground / mutual understanding here. Only a stubborn solidification of your position that you keep repeating over and over in different variations under the illusion the other person will secede and admit the validity of your argument. It has even devolved to the point where you are both calling into question each other's character as evidence to disqualify what you perceive as the opposing (thus incorrect) argument.


I find this ridiculous and pointless, and wonder why you are even bothering.


Getting upset because someone doesn't get you or what you are trying to convey is absurd.


They just don't get you. Do you get them? Does it actually matter?

I agree . This was the most rational,kindest thing addressed my way since this thread began.Even if it wasn't mean't to be so. I will admit my inability to grasp much of what has been said here.I apologize for this. Where I am from people do not talk like this [usually] and no I am not from IDIOTVILLE.

What I did gather I fundamentally disagree with. However I do respect the opposing outlook . This discussion became very psychological to the point of deep endeavors into the human psyche/sulcus.  What upset me was the name calling,mean spiritedness and instigating on a few's behalf and I know they will never see it that way. That really hurt me and I became a bit reactionary but not to the point of name calling. I feel there are many ways one can convey an idea and some of these ways that were chosen went against my grain. 

I think we all agree that this company from Craig's end [don't know him] has been ran miserably and there are many problems here. 

If I am seen as an idiot by some...oh well. I am passionate on my viewpoint but I can admit when I am wrong. The only wrong I feel I did here was getting to emotionally vested in this discussion but when I am degraded I strike back and perhaps some sensed this and instigated.

As I said way back can we just agree to disagree? I have. Also I realize by typing this the discussion will go on with or without me. If I am quoted I will respond..i suppose.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

Any truth that is absolute will appear as a paradox / contradiction to any perspective that itself is not rooted in absolute truth.


In other words, if you take a perspective that by it's nature has within it the possibility of an opposing or nullifying position, and then are met by a perspective that not only supports your position, but also the position diametrically opposed to you, then you will not be able to comprehend that all-embracing perspective. It will appear as an absurd statement of nonsense, saying nothing valid at all... Or it will be completely invisible to you.


Edit: I am not addressing anyone in particular with this post.


This post is simply a brain-fart... Possibly I myself chose to write it for reasons apparent to me, or I am mearly a vessel / instrument of some incomprehensible force responding / having a dialogue with itself via other choiceless instruments (you guys).


Maybe I Am that force in It's entirety, so am both consciously participating and making choices on the fly, and at the same time am a helpless instrument of myself that I have not yet realized.

wow you are so deep it intrigues me to no end...seriously no joke.  I had many brain farts yes indeed.  Better than TIA's

 

[FaeMinx]

Why thank you!


I'll just throw this last thing out there:


It is impossible to perceive anything that does not originate from within you... The only way to perceive something, is to recognize it. The only way to recognize something is to already know it. The only way to truely know something, is to be it...


Therefore, all that you perceive is you, regardless of your current understanding of yourself and the contradiction this 'logic' seems to pose within the relative framework of time and space.


Is this a pointless statement? Well, that is entirely up to you, after all.

 

[thatgui]

 I still say and said then that if you work for a company and are aware of foul play and do not try to better the situation then you too are culpable and deserve the rude,degrading comments as well as Craig does....yes I mean Debs,Jacquelyn,,whoever works there. The honorable thing to do would be to resign. Otherwise you deserve whatever comes.

you reap what you sow.

No No No No,

you don't have any clue about the relationship between Craig and Deb - there is a whole universe of possibilities why she was working for craig: from deb is an evil which, to deb is a saint that helps the poorly organized. You do not have any right to be prejudgemental.

And no one - NO ONE - deserves any rude behaviour, regardless of what he may have done or not - just give good old Kant another spin in his grave. An we are not talking about raped women, robbed banks or other extreme examples that where thrown around on the last pages. Its just money, that was invested in a product to be, by people that conciously agreed to the fact that the whole thing could slide into the sewer. And we are also not talking about instinctive acts that are happening in a matter of seconds, a whole lot of time (in comparison) has to be invested to write such mails, with at least two or three steps that have to be taken concious before the message is sent.

This does not excuse Craigs behaviour, but this also does not give people an excuse to write such messages. These people just have to learn, that if they are angry, they should keep their fingers from the keyboard as writing such messages is only good for one thing - venting steam, and in the end are even counterproductive as it leeds to the addresses fences beeing raised, nothing more.

Some (as FaeMinx) might say who cares about an idiot (I'm talking about me here) writing about something in an only slighty related forum, and their right about it. But that is the only possibility, to repeat this over and over and over and over and over till the last of that morons (you are not ment) gets it into their thick skulls, that this is not an acceptable behaviour.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

 I still say and said then that if you work for a company and are aware of foul play and do not try to better the situation then you too are culpable and deserve the rude,degrading comments as well as Craig does....yes I mean Debs,Jacquelyn,,whoever works there. The honorable thing to do would be to resign. Otherwise you deserve whatever comes.

you reap what you sow.

No No No No,

you don't have any clue about the relationship between Craig and Deb - there is a whole universe of possibilities why she was working for craig: from deb is an evil which, to deb is a saint that helps the poorly organized. You do not have any right to be prejudgemental.

And no one - NO ONE - deserves any rude behaviour, regardless of what he may have done or not - just give good old Kant another spin in his grave. An we are not talking about raped women, robbed banks or other extreme examples that where thrown around on the last pages. Its just money, that was invested in a product to be, by people that conciously agreed to the fact that the whole thing could slide into the sewer. And we are also not talking about instinctive acts that are happening in a matter of seconds, a whole lot of time (in comparison) has to be invested to write such mails, with at least two or three steps that have to be taken concious before the message is sent.

This does not excuse Craigs behaviour, but this also does not give people an excuse to write such messages. These people just have to learn, that if they are angry, they should keep their fingers from the keyboard as writing such messages is only good for one thing - venting steam, and in the end are even counterproductive as it leeds to the addresses fences beeing raised, nothing more.

Some (as FaeMinx) might say who cares about an idiot (I'm talking about me here) writing about something in an only slighty related forum, and their right about it. But that is the only possibility, to repeat this over and over and over and over and over till the last of that morons (you are not ment) gets it into their thick skulls, that this is not an acceptable behaviour.

Sorry i did not think I was judging anyone here.  All I mean is to say is this sort of reminds me of a silent crime. I believe no matter what the rapport between an employee and employer ,,if the employee is aware of the company being poorly ran and continues to stay on then he or she should expect problems of all sorts. Wether they be a secretary, asst. manager or accountant, beware of threats and lawsuits!! It happens all the time with poorly ran businesses. Everybody takes the brunt and the owner is responsible. How many times must I say this here? 

If you bother to scroll back some pages[as I have been advised to do] you will read I have said this before.

I will add that if a employee has no clue as to what shady or illegal practices are occurring at their workplace then yes the are absolved. They then are innocent.

Peace

 

[b_o_b]

 deb is an evil witch

Not nice thatgui..... 

Just making a point

 

[Binky]

 deb is an evil witch

Not nice thatgui..... 

Just making a point

*** Please go and read the context before reacting to thatgui's post ***

 

[moxie]

Moxie quoted ' I will have a few choice descriptions for you too'...so what did you mean?  I still say and said then that if you work for a company and are aware of foul play and do not try to better the situation then you too are culpable and deserve the rude,degrading comments as well as Craig does....yes I mean Debs,Jacquelyn,,whoever works there. The honorable thing to do would be to resign. Otherwise you deserve whatever comes.

you reap what you sow.

I agree that you reap what you sow. I've already explained my view on this (on how it isn't really fair to treat iCP2 ltd as a company in the same way as, say, IBM). If you didn't want to read it then, I don't see why I should repeat it again.

Also, what Kodein keeps reminding you of.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

Moxie quoted ' I will have a few choice descriptions for you too'...so what did you mean?  I still say and said then that if you work for a company and are aware of foul play and do not try to better the situation then you too are culpable and deserve the rude,degrading comments as well as Craig does....yes I mean Debs,Jacquelyn,,whoever works there. The honorable thing to do would be to resign. Otherwise you deserve whatever comes.

you reap what you sow.

I agree that you reap what you sow. I've already explained my view on this (on how it isn't really fair to treat iCP2 ltd as a company in the same way as, say, IBM). If you didn't want to read it then, I don't see why I should repeat it again.

Also, what Kodein keeps reminding you of.

I wasn't asking for your view. ...and I don't recall anyone that has kept reminding me of anything other than the fact he/she disagrees with me.

 

[kasp]

Maybe everyone here is wrong.

What if the guy who posted the following in kickstater was correct?

Deb you are a whore and should throw yourself off a cliff b*tch.

 

[b_o_b]

He was frustrated and wanted to set things in motion. If you look at it that way, it is a job well done. 

Whatever people are saying in this thread - and what he will probably not read - he is rewarded for his action and will probably do it again next time.

 

[ramboky]

He hasn't set anything in motion. We're all here having a pretty inane argument while Craig is continuing on just has he has always done. As long as Craig can hide behind the internet he's not going to give a rats arse what anyone says. What he needs is a short, sharp kick in the balls. 

 

[moxie]

I wasn't asking for your view. ...and I don't recall anyone that has kept reminding me of anything other than the fact he/she disagrees with me.

Every time you post the line that an employee that is aware of shady goings on in a company and doesn't expose it is an accomplice, Kodein posts a line that reminds you that there is actually no evidence of any mismanagement or embezzlement or anything like that in iCP2 ltd. There is delays, but nothing that is criminal.

Or, to make it even more clear: Your argument that Debs is an accomplice to the mismanagements of iCP2 needs you to show that there is actually proper mismanagement going on. 

 

[_wb_]

Some people are really passionate about electronic gadgets, to the point that they get extremely upset if the production timing doesn't correspond to the originally announced planning. I have no problem with that in itself, as I'm a bit of a geek myself too - although in terms of timing, I've always had a relaxed attitude, I never understood people who are waiting in line for hours just to be among the first to buy some newly released product. Anyway, I can understand that you can be eager to get your new gadget, especially if you already paid for it and according to the original announcements it should already have shipped.

But when you get to the point of verbally assaulting people just because your new toys are not arriving fast enough, you seriously need to get a life.

 

[darkborn]

Well that sucks - I don't know how the people sending abusive emails to strangers on the 'net can live with themselves.


Anyway - thanks for the help from someone who appreciates you efforts.

I'm pretty sure those bad guys didn't intend to shout at some poor person answering the Mails for Craig.


They intended to shout at that guy who is responsible for that mess.


So don't blame those who are angered because some guy tells lies.


Why should they not write an angry mail to the company of that guy?


If there is a person between the bad guy and the angry people I'd ask myself why that guy doesn't want to talk to all the people he took money from.


That debs resigned is not the fault of the angry people but of those guy who caused the anger and doesn't want to talk to anyone.


If people throw with shit at you don't ask an other person to stand in front of you.

Basically, this explains everything. And strange behavior of people involved here, defending indefensible.


(edit


I do *not* have sorry for anyone involved in this situation. Nor Jacqueline. Anybody. Because, this is all good cop/bad cop for me, always some "good" people around enabling this burlesque going on and on... NOW that I know who mr. Rothwell is, there is *no* *f.kin* *way* I will work for him *ever*. I do not know what kind relations do they have between, but it is healthier for everybody that (public) business part is over..

Some people are really passionate about electronic gadgets, to the point that they get extremely upset if the production timing doesn't correspond to the originally announced planning. I have no problem with that in itself, as I'm a bit of a geek myself too - although in terms of timing, I've always had a relaxed attitude, I never understood people who are waiting in line for hours just to be among the first to buy some newly released product. Anyway, I can understand that you can be eager to get your new gadget, especially if you already paid for it and according to the original announcements it should already have shipped.


But when you get to the point of verbally assaulting people just because your new toys are not arriving fast enough, you seriously need to get a life.

It is intentionally, tendentially miss-interpreted. Electronic gadgets? Waiting for HOURS? We are talking about hundreds of thousands $/€/whatever, YEARS of scr*wing thousands of people around...


I'll make you short:


When somebody take your money, and then say: "Talk to the hand" - you spit on that hand. Whatever innocent it looks like, or call it whatever name you want.


I do not buy that *anybody* involved *for* years* did not know what is going on.


"You know, I did not do it, it was my hand. I am innocent... " Bollocks.


you seriously need to get a life.


You seriously need a proper moral attitude.

He hasn't set anything in motion. We're all here having a pretty inane argument while Craig is continuing on just has he has always done. As long as Craig can hide behind the internet he's not going to give a rats arse what anyone says. What he needs is a short, sharp kick in the balls.

NOOOOO! Here's what you have to do:

your new toys are not arriving fast enough, you seriously need to get a life.

Oh, and before that give your credit card as a self service, so that Craig & his company do not have to struggle... with ICP3 & Pandora8. And fake identities at forums, etc.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

I wasn't asking for your view. ...and I don't recall anyone that has kept reminding me of anything other than the fact he/she disagrees with me.

Every time you post the line that an employee that is aware of shady goings on in a company and doesn't expose it is an accomplice, Kodein posts a line that reminds you that there is actually no evidence of any mismanagement or embezzlement or anything like that in iCP2 ltd. There is delays, but nothing that is criminal.

Or, to make it even more clear: Your argument that Debs is an accomplice to the mismanagements of iCP2 needs you to show that there is actually proper mismanagement going on. 

@moxie...Well something has been mismanaged based on the fact that customers  that  have paid for a product promised have been waiting years > months for either that product or a refund!!.. and....the fact that communication is practically nil. What other evidence do you need of mismanagement??  No I do not know if it is 'shady' but there is something terribly wrong here. It certainly is not out in the sunshine and exposed is it? If you read what I said I said 'IF an employee'!!! I did not say that there is specifically anything shady going on and debs was in on it...please!!. Please read what I say before you disagree and make accusations at me again.

Poor mismanagement/product delivery,  gross customer negligence and not honoring refunds  could involve some legal action or investigation. I hope not but if it is deserved then I applaud it. 

 

[Exophase]

@moxie...Well something has been mismanaged based on the fact that customers  that  have paid for a product promised have been waiting years > months for either that product or a refund!!.. and....the fact that communication is practically nil. What other evidence do you need of mismanagement??  No I do not know if it is 'shady' but there is something terribly wrong here. It certainly is not out in the sunshine and exposed is it? If you read what I said I said 'IF an employee'!!! I did not say that there is specifically anything shady going on and debs was in on it...please!!. Please read what I say before you disagree and make accusations at me again.

Poor mismanagement/product delivery,  gross customer negligence and not honoring refunds  could involve some legal action or investigation. I hope not but if it is deserved then I applaud it.

Being a terrible project manager who can't make nor keep a proper schedule to save his life and can't communicate (or take accountability) worth a damn doesn't mean you're doing anything illegal. That was your argument, that Debs is culpable as an accomplice in illegal activity and therefore deserves harassment.

Craig may very well be liable in court action forcing him to hand out refunds or something like that, although there are other avenues like declaring bankruptcy (if you place an order with a company that then promptly folds what do you think happens next?).. but that doesn't place any blame on Debs. Least of all by association.

This doesn't mean that Debs is ignorant of Craig bungling the operation, but she's not accountable for this. What seems obvious to me is that if she wasn't there things would have been even worse for both iCP2 and Pandora. She did a good job given the circumstances, leaving would have only made things worse (and will make things worse now but I don't blame her), and there's no way this makes it fair to direct personal attacks at her.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

@moxie...Well something has been mismanaged based on the fact that customers  that  have paid for a product promised have been waiting years > months for either that product or a refund!!.. and....the fact that communication is practically nil. What other evidence do you need of mismanagement??  No I do not know if it is 'shady' but there is something terribly wrong here. It certainly is not out in the sunshine and exposed is it? If you read what I said I said 'IF an employee'!!! I did not say that there is specifically anything shady going on and debs was in on it...please!!. Please read what I say before you disagree and make accusations at me again.


Poor mismanagement/product delivery,  gross customer negligence and not honoring refunds  could involve some legal action or investigation. I hope not but if it is deserved then I applaud it.

Being a terrible project manager who can't make nor keep a proper schedule to save his life and can't communicate (or take accountability) worth a damn doesn't mean you're doing anything illegal. That was your argument, that Debs is culpable as an accomplice in illegal activity and therefore deserves harassment.


Craig may very well be liable in court action forcing him to hand out refunds or something like that, although there are other avenues like declaring bankruptcy (if you place an order with a company that then promptly folds what do you think happens next?).. but that doesn't place any blame on Debs. Least of all by association.


This doesn't mean that Debs is ignorant of Craig bungling the operation, but she's not accountable for this. What seems obvious to me is that if she wasn't there things would have been even worse for both iCP2 and Pandora. She did a good job given the circumstances, leaving would have only made things worse (and will make things worse now but I don't blame her), and there's no way this makes it fair to direct personal attacks at her.

Firstly I never said she was directly involved I said IF.There are instances where the employees are directly involved .I was stating scenarios. Secondly if you see somebody do something illegal and you are aware that this is illegal then you are also responsible for that illegality. Not to the extent of the one directly causing the illegality but responsible for not reporting it. Have you ever herd of terms called being a 'fence' or the term accomplice or guilt by association ?  Happens all the time in business and all sorts of crimes in general.

I think debs or whoever worked there did the honorable thing by resigning. Very honorable. This bloke craig appears to be MIA for some reason. It boggles my mind how many bad scenarios there might be of why he is.

Now don't gather this the wrong way but I know with myself if I was just getting threatening phone calls I wouldn't leave the job solely because of that but rather I would want to investigate/inquire my boss of why this is occurring.

If I ever said anyone was directly involved in any mode it was Craig and I also said that if his employees knew of any discrepancies and did nothing about it then they too were involved. Why is this so hard for you to get??

 

[moxie]

Firstly I never said she was directly involved I said IF.There are instances where the employees are directly involved .

[...]

If I ever said anyone was directly involved in any mode it was Craig and I also said that if his employees knew of any discrepancies and did nothing about it then they too were involved. Why is this so hard for you to get??

...but you did use this as the reason why calling Debs a whore and wishing for her speedy demise wasn't a complete dick move: Since she had chosen to stay on with Craig, she deserved to get it just as well as Craig did. If you're looking back through the thread, I'm sure you can find your own quotes (and if you are so adverse to rereading your own old posts as you are to rereading others, I might find them for you). Now you're saying there is an "if" here. That most certainly wasn't there before - Everyone who has argued against you has used this in one form or another - "Since Debs isn't in a position of authority, this is grossly unfair". Now you're saying that you actually agree with everybody else (i.e. this might be deserved if Debs actually had some say in things). Are you now backpedalling (and should I therefore go collect quotes before you retcon them), or have you seriously argued against us all this whole time without bothering to read?

EDIT: And oh my, you are rather hot on that edit button, are you not? Your posts sort of mutate as we speak.