Debs resigns

[b_o_b]

He hasn't set anything in motion. We're all here having a pretty inane argument while Craig is continuing on just has he has always done. As long as Craig can hide behind the internet he's not going to give a rats arse what anyone says. 

Not sure about that. She resigned, so things did change. If 1/3rd of the people in the company I work for resigned, I can assure you that things would change. In fact we have had a reorganization and our organization was a lot more effective after firing quite a lot of people.. 

I still think there were lots of legal procedures people could/should have started. I saw lots of folks complaining, but none of them bothered to really take some action. Well... not entirely true... Ed was trying to solve things by cleaning up the mess from Craig. IMO a big mistake.  

 

[b_o_b]

But when you get to the point of verbally assaulting people just because your new toys are not arriving fast enough, you seriously need to get a life.

I agree, if it happened like that. I haven't read the details, but it seems very unlikely to me someone was only calling here names because of the delay. 

 

[Exophase]

Firstly I never said she was directly involved I said IF.There are instances where the employees are directly involved .I was stating scenarios. Secondly if you see somebody do something illegal and you are aware that this is illegal then you are also responsible for that illegality. Not to the extent of the one directly causing the illegality but responsible for not reporting it. Have you ever herd of terms called being a 'fence' or the term accomplice or guilt by association ?  Happens all the time in business and all sorts of crimes in general.

I think debs or whoever worked there did the honorable thing by resigning. Very honorable. This bloke craig appears to be MIA for some reason. It boggles my mind how many bad scenarios there might be of why he is.

Now don't gather this the wrong way but I know with myself if I was just getting threatening phone calls I wouldn't leave the job solely because of that but rather I would want to investigate/inquire my boss of why this is occurring.

If I ever said anyone was directly involved in any mode it was Craig and I also said that if his employees knew of any discrepancies and did nothing about it then they too were involved. Why is this so hard for you to get??

There is no evidence that anyone is doing anything illegal, why do you keep speculating on this? If he's not doing anything illegal then Debs does nothing wrong by working as a secretary or whatever else she does just because Craig sucks as a project manager. And you've got some serious balls if you ask your boss why he sucks at his job and is screwing over the customers.. somehow I don't think you actually do this.

We don't really know why Debs resigned, except that Craig says it's because she was harassed by customers. Maybe it was for something more than that. Maybe it was for honorable reasons, maybe not. We don't know. Personally I agree that I don't think she'd quit just because of a few idiots giving her crap, I said as much before, but that doesn't mean that she was taking some kind of moral stance.

I agree, if it happened like that. I haven't read the details, but it seems very unlikely to me someone was only calling here names because of the delay.

You saw the quote of the guy in the KS comments who called her a whore and a bitch who should jump off a cliff, didn't you? If he can say stuff like that in public the stuff in private correspondence is likely to be at least as bad... Or do you think this guy was motivated by something other than having not received his iCP2 or satisfactory information for why he hasn't received his iCP2?

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

That motherfucker should not get an icp 2 for making such comments.oops we accidentaly sent it to antarrtica.

 

[b_o_b]

I agree, if it happened like that. I haven't read the details, but it seems very unlikely to me someone was only calling here names because of the delay.

You saw the quote of the guy in the KS comments who called her a whore and a bitch who should jump off a cliff, didn't you? If he can say stuff like that in public the stuff in private correspondence is likely to be at least as bad... Or do you think this guy was motivated by something other than having not received his iCP2 or satisfactory information for why he hasn't received his iCP2?

I have no idea what caused his excessive behaviour. Bad behaviour is always caused by something. I can't imagine someone only being worked up like that, because of the delay. Of course that is  from within my frame of mind. (and yes FaeMinx I know... )

BTW it might seem like I am supporting his behaviour from my previous posts, but I am not. I do like to imagine myself being the 'underdog' or accused and try to understand what is motivating someone to behave the way he / she does.  

 

[Exophase]

I have no idea what caused his excessive behaviour. Bad behaviour is always caused by something. I can't imagine someone only being worked up like that, because of the delay. Of course that is  from within my frame of mind. (and yes FaeMinx I know... )

BTW it might seem like I am supporting his behaviour from my previous posts, but I am not. I do like to imagine myself being the 'underdog' or accused and try to understand what is motivating someone to behave the way he / she does.

I don't think I fully understand you. I find people going off like this at the slightest provocation all the time, especially online.. For reasons much less severe than a product order being 6 months late and getting nothing but BS or silence as explanation why. The anger seems easy for me to understand. It's not just because they don't have the device, although that's a big part of it.. but also the psychological stress of having no idea when you'll get it but constantly trying to find out, as well as the feeling of another person taking advantage of you. This guy is just lashing out because he has poor inhibition and isn't very smart, probably because it helps relieve some of that stress. And it's done in a way in which he has pretty much zero risk of consequence. Again, not very hard for me to understand. It's not like he shot someone in the head.

 

[b_o_b]

I don't think I fully understand you. I find people going off like this at the slightest provocation all the time, especially online.. For reasons much less severe than a product order being 6 months late and getting nothing but BS or silence as explanation why. The anger seems easy for me to understand. It's not just because they don't have the device, although that's a big part of it.. but also the psychological stress of having no idea when you'll get it but constantly trying to find out, as well as the feeling of another person taking advantage of you. This guy is just lashing out because he has poor inhibition and isn't very smart, probably because it helps relieve some of that stress. And it's done in a way in which he has pretty much zero risk of consequence. Again, not very hard for me to understand. It's not like he shot someone in the head.

I only see that kind of idiocy in comments on youtube when people are anonymous. If I am correct on kickstarter your name is registered, so I don't think this is a standard online troll but a very frustrated customer. My other question is why Deb? Why isn't that response directed towards Craig. I don't understand that. Still think we don't have all the details. That said, excellent post!

 

[ramboky]

He hasn't set anything in motion. We're all here having a pretty inane argument while Craig is continuing on just has he has always done. As long as Craig can hide behind the internet he's not going to give a rats arse what anyone says. 

Not sure about that. She resigned, so things did change. If 1/3rd of the people in the company I work for resigned, I can assure you that things would change. In fact we have had a reorganization and our organization was a lot more effective after firing quite a lot of people.. 

Debs resigning has had no impact whatsoever. Craig is still ignoring backers questions, posting sporadic, vague and incomplete updates and generally being the same jackass he's been all along. This isn't a small company with some level of accountability, it's just Craig.

I have no idea what caused his excessive behaviour. Bad behaviour is always caused by something. I can't imagine someone only being worked up like that, because of the delay. Of course that is  from within my frame of mind. (and yes FaeMinx I know... )


BTW it might seem like I am supporting his behaviour from my previous posts, but I am not. I do like to imagine myself being the 'underdog' or accused and try to understand what is motivating someone to behave the way he / she does.

I don't think I fully understand you. I find people going off like this at the slightest provocation all the time, especially online.. For reasons much less severe than a product order being 6 months late and getting nothing but BS or silence as explanation why. The anger seems easy for me to understand. It's not just because they don't have the device, although that's a big part of it.. but also the psychological stress of having no idea when you'll get it but constantly trying to find out, as well as the feeling of another person taking advantage of you. This guy is just lashing out because he has poor inhibition and isn't very smart, probably because it helps relieve some of that stress. And it's done in a way in which he has pretty much zero risk of consequence. Again, not very hard for me to understand. It's not like he shot someone in the head.

^^ That bit in orange, that's what's really pissing people off. It's not the delays, It's knowing you're being taken for a fool by Craig. 

Your comment sums it up nicely. What's happened here is as unsurprising as the sun rising in the morning. Whether you think the behavior is excusable or not, it's as inevitable as it was avoidable. 

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

Firstly I never said she was directly involved I said IF.There are instances where the employees are directly involved .


[...]


If I ever said anyone was directly involved in any mode it was Craig and I also said that if his employees knew of any discrepancies and did nothing about it then they too were involved. Why is this so hard for you to get??

...but you did use this as the reason why calling Debs a whore and wishing for her speedy demise wasn't a complete dick move: Since she had chosen to stay on with Craig, she deserved to get it just as well as Craig did. If you're looking back through the thread, I'm sure you can find your own quotes (and if you are so adverse to rereading your own old posts as you are to rereading others, I might find them for you). Now you're saying there is an "if" here. That most certainly wasn't there before - Everyone who has argued against you has used this in one form or another - "Since Debs isn't in a position of authority, this is grossly unfair". Now you're saying that you actually agree with everybody else (i.e. this might be deserved if Debs actually had some say in things). Are you now backpedalling (and should I therefore go collect quotes before you retcon them), or have you seriously argued against us all this whole time without bothering to read?

EDIT: And oh my, you are rather hot on that edit button, are you not? Your posts sort of mutate as we speak.

I said from the start yes debs or anyone deserves what flack they received from irate customers. No I don't mean somebody actually carrying out those threats. But yes she deserved customer flack because the company she works for is being handled awfully. Wether I said "if,"and" or "but" I can not prove or claim to know exactly what has transpired....but whatever it might be it is horrid the way this company has carried on.

@Moxie quit twisting this around to try to make me look like some martyr here. I feel sorry for the girl and commend her for resigning.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

I have no idea what caused his excessive behaviour. Bad behaviour is always caused by something. I can't imagine someone only being worked up like that, because of the delay. Of course that is  from within my frame of mind. (and yes FaeMinx I know... )


BTW it might seem like I am supporting his behaviour from my previous posts, but I am not. I do like to imagine myself being the 'underdog' or accused and try to understand what is motivating someone to behave the way he / she does.

I don't think I fully understand you. I find people going off like this at the slightest provocation all the time, especially online.. For reasons much less severe than a product order being 6 months late and getting nothing but BS or silence as explanation why. The anger seems easy for me to understand. It's not just because they don't have the device, although that's a big part of it.. but also the psychological stress of having no idea when you'll get it but constantly trying to find out, as well as the feeling of another person taking advantage of you. This guy is just lashing out because he has poor inhibition and isn't very smart, probably because it helps relieve some of that stress. And it's done in a way in which he has pretty much zero risk of consequence. Again, not very hard for me to understand. It's not like he shot someone in the head.

It's not even a point of illegalities. It is simply this : you run a company like shit,, you work for a shitty company you get the shit shoveled at you. Legal or not. I never said that things are being done illegally for I do not know this....BUT it would not surprise me or be out of the scope here if things were.

It's the Ship of Fools Syndrome here.

 

[Exophase]

That's a load of garbage CocoCreekFisherman. I hope you have the pleasure of working for a company and later finding out that upper management was totally incompetent and blew a bunch of things, then you can see how much you like being blamed for it.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

That's a load of garbage CocoCreekFisherman. I hope you have the pleasure of working for a company and later finding out that upper management was totally incompetent and blew a bunch of things, then you can see how much you like being blamed for it.

If I was aware and assisted then yes I would be responsible. If not then it would be undeserved. If I was aware and did nothing to rectify the conditions then yes I am partly responsible too.

i do not think anybody knows the real reasons here.

Why you cannot understand this I have no clue??

You seem so ready to argue with me that you cannot see past your rage towards me.

 

[moxie]

There is no rage against you, CocoCreek. It is mainly befuddlement. Any rage you see, you create yourself.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

There is no rage against you, CocoCreek. It is mainly befuddlement. Any rage you see, you create yourself.

Not befuddlement on my behalf...if so why because I disagree with what you think?  There is no rage on my behalf and there never has been. Or are you saying I am responsible for people like you being insulting...again and again...and mean spirited?

Moxie I really have had enough of your trolling, stupid innuendos and slander so why don't you try moderating  for a change?

** I wanted to add an example ...let us say there is an owner of a corporation. He is claiming his product is original but really it is a copy from Thailand. He has sold thousands and now the product has been braking,no refunds have been granted and communication is pitiful at best. Not only that but everyone else in the company has found  this out.

So almost everyone in the company disgusted with the deception and policy decides to resign for moral and ethical reasons. Say that company employed 50 people. ..say 45 resigned.

Now the illegal business machine has stopped being fed because with out the staff the company cannot function. This, though rare, is honorable and I wish more people could or would afford to do this.

Another example and a true one at that : I knew a gent of a fellow that was a dental technician second to none. His work was published internationally and his lab produced magnificently functional and esthetic work. I would say he was the Gordon Ramsey or Wolf Gang Puck of dental ceramics. The  laboratory he owned employed 25.  His wife left him . He caught her cheating with another woman. This fellow became despondent after lengthy legal entanglements and took heavily to drugs and drink.

Work gradually suffered because the owner was slowly MIA...due to you know what.It was a gradual downward spiral of a brilliant man and his company. The business collapsed and all lost their job. Nobody knew of his chemical dependencies but did know of the marital situation. 

I do not blame anyone but the owner.

 

[moxie]

If you've seen stupid innuendos or slander from me, I'd really like to know where, because that is really not meant to be. Show me a quote, please.

Befuddlement from me, of course, and possibly from others, because it is really hard to keep up with what you're trying to say. You're talking about "mismanagement", then deny that you're meaning anything illegal (isn't mismanagement a legal term?), and then back to the legalese again.

Frequent switching of perspectives - Suddenly you're convinced that someone is accusing you of being drunk, when he was explicitly refering to his own text. Suddenly you think we are making you a martyr, whilst the one who we actually seem to be martyrizing (as in, you know, an innocent victim) is Debs. How come you think we are making you out as a victim? And now you seem to think that when I answer your line about us "writing in fury" with "possibly in befuddlement", you somehow seem to think that I paint you as the befuddled one? It is quite confusing.

Several times through this thread, you say things like "Yes, that is exactly what I mean!!!" about quite opposing viewpoints. You manage in the same posting to say that Debs deserves all the customer flak she gets, since she is in on it with Craig, and then goes back to say that you feel sorry for her? Not to mention that just a few posts earlier, she deserved this only if she had some sort of level of involvement or knowledge about the shady dealings of Craig without reporting it (once again referencing illegalities), and then now again it is back to her deserving it just for being there.

It is all very confusing. So that's why I state that I'm befuddled. I just don't get it.

But do get that quote. If you say you see "stupid innuendos" or "slander" in any of my post, I'd like you to point out where. If that is true, then I have overstepped the line. If it isn't, then I really don't like that accusation levelled at me.

EDIT: I'd like to know where you get "insulting" and "mean-spirited", too, but since that is a lot more subjective I don't expect to. But innuendos or slander ought to be rather well defined.

 

[moxie]

...And now, after some post-editing, you're back at referencing illegalities. That is, you're contrasting one company that is running a properly illegal/immoral scheme with another one which breaks down because the owner breaks down. In the first one, you deem those who quit their jobs for being "honorable", and in the other one you make it clear that you're only blaming the owner (The one with the breakdown - Would you not rather sympathize with him? But I digress).

You claim several times that you're not trying to say that Craig is up to illegal shenigans, yet still the language you use about Debs and about the whole situation is from example one, not example two.

What are you actually trying to say?

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

...And now, after some post-editing, you're back at referencing illegalities. That is, you're contrasting one company that is running a properly illegal/immoral scheme with another one which breaks down because the owner breaks down. In the first one, you deem those who quit their jobs for being "honorable", and in the other one you make it clear that you're only blaming the owner (The one with the breakdown - Would you not rather sympathize with him? But I digress).

You claim several times that you're not trying to say that Craig is up to illegal shenigans, yet still the language you use about Debs and about the whole situation is from example one, not example two.

What are you actually trying to say?

All I am saying is that none of this is good. I don't know who knew what or why and I suppose I never will. If  some company practices are not illegal then perhaps they are unethical or immoral which is just as bad.

For the last time... I am not accusing anyone of anything because I do not know them or the real situation at all. However it is my nature not to put anything past anyone these days.

That's it.

and yes I did feel deeply sorry for this man believe it or not. He did not want help and had to reach his own 'rock bottom' before he submitted to it.

But he 'blew it' in my opinion.

 

[WizardStan]

Here's an example I just came up with that isn't based on any real life situation.

Imagine there's a web forum, doesn't matter what it is a forum of. On that forum there is a person, we will call this person BBE. BBE makes an offensive post. Not just disagreement kind of post, but something that can be proven to be offensive, something universal along the lines of "anybody that doesn't like raw red meat is a baby". Another person takes the time to point out that what BBE just said is offensive. BBE, instead of recognizing that categorically calling a large group of people babies is probably not a good thing, works even harder. Anyone that doesn't like to kill their own meat before they eat it is a baby, and other such things. BBE is eventually ignored of the rude statements because it becomes apparent that no amount of logic will convince BBE that what he is saying is absolutely wrong.

We move along and encounter yet another thread. BBE has once again said something wrong, except this time what he has said was so wrong that many people are in on it. He's changing his position randomly, editing posts, completely misunderstanding simple statements and making a mess of his own points. The other users, seeing that his posts are making less and less sense with ever passing moment, begin to question BBE's intelligence and sanity. BBE takes these questions as a direct attack.

So, we come to the point: BBE has done some things, acted in a certain way, that resulted in these so-called "attacks". If BBE had actually behaved with respect and taken the time to understand the debate that was going on before getting involved then none of them would have happened. Is BBE responsible for the attacks directed at himself?

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

Here's an example I just came up with that isn't based on any real life situation.


Imagine there's a web forum, doesn't matter what it is a forum of. On that forum there is a person, we will call this person BBE. BBE makes an offensive post. Not just disagreement kind of post, but something that can be proven to be offensive, something universal along the lines of "anybody that doesn't like raw red meat is a baby". Another person takes the time to point out that what BBE just said is offensive. BBE, instead of recognizing that categorically calling a large group of people babies is probably not a good thing, works even harder. Anyone that doesn't like to kill their own meat before they eat it is a baby, and other such things. BBE is eventually ignored of the rude statements because it becomes apparent that no amount of logic will convince BBE that what he is saying is absolutely wrong.


We move along and encounter yet another thread. BBE has once again said something wrong, except this time what he has said was so wrong that many people are in on it. He's changing his position randomly, editing posts, completely misunderstanding simple statements and making a mess of his own points. The other users, seeing that his posts are making less and less sense with ever passing moment, begin to question BBE's intelligence and sanity. BBE takes these questions as a direct attack.


So, we come to the point: BBE has done some things, acted in a certain way, that resulted in these so-called "attacks". If BBE had actually behaved with respect and taken the time to understand the debate that was going on before getting involved then none of them would have happened. Is BBE responsible for the attacks directed at himself?

The only thing is that not everyone thinks this way of BBE as you suggest. You might  and others might but it is not universally accepted as such in this thread. Perhaps the reason BBE edits his posts is because he has trouble typing english properly. But someone as opinionated and narrow minded as wizard cannot see or accept this. it is a cop out to him. Your BBE example is fitting  for you because I do not agree or understand your prolix gibberish  and some others too.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

@wizardstan....you are EBB..a person that thinks every opinion he has in any thread is the only way to think and the final word. Just because EBB is pandora savoy that does not make him an authority on any other subject here. I think EBB strives to be an intellectual but really shows predictable intellect at best.

and yet you keep responding.