Dat Price Tag Tho

[WizardStan]

And price is a serious argument.

No. If it needs to be 600EUR in order to be made at all then no amount of arguing will change that. This isn't elitism trying to keep people out, it's reality.

 

[moxie]

We here all probably know the value of the OP/Pyra and are willing to pay the price for it, but let's not be elitist (like the ones complaining of x86 bringing hords of dumb g4merz ).

Ah, there's nothing wrong a bit of elitism. How else are we going to justify paying €550 for this, if we're not allowed to believe that we're just that little bit better than everybody else?

And price is a serious argument.

More seriously: Yes, of course. But realistically, the economies of scale means that the Pyra will never compare, specs versus dollars, to any massmarket device by any of the big manufacturers. Any argument of "Well, it can't be more than $250, 'coz that's what the new PlayPad from Sony costs and that has the same SoC and a bigger screen" is always in itself fallacious. The Pyra, like the Pandora, will be a small-manufacturer device with a unique set of features, and those of us that want that set of features will have to pay more than vaguely comparable devices with similar features, and if someone expects differently, we need to take them out of their delusions immediately. 

 

[WizardStan]

Any argument of "Well, it can't be more than $250, 'coz that's what the new PlayPad from Sony costs and that has the same SoC and a bigger screen" is always in itself fallacious

I was at a convention a couple years ago, waiting in line, playing my Pandora, and the guy behind me asks "hey, what's that cool thing?" so I started into the spiel about the open source nature, the history, the niche design goals. And then I mentioned the price; the woman in front of me chooses this moment to turn around and say "for that price I could get a brand new iPhone and jailbreak it". I then get caught directly in the middle of an argument about the merits of supporting indie developers that work with you vs well known brands even when they occasionally work against you, thinking to myself the entire time "did... did I get transported INTO the internet?"People that want an Playstation or iPhone or whatever will complain that whatever we produce is NOT a Playstation or an iPhone or whatever, they'll expect the price to be lower because it isn't exactly what they're looking for (even when the thing that they're looking for isn't exactly what they're looking for, ie having to jailbreak their iPhone). We shouldn't care about these people. For every 1000 people that want it to be lower because it isn't exactly what they want there is that one person who will pay the price because it really is EXACTLY what they want. We need to market to this 0.1%, we need to make it perfectly clear in that marketing that it is targeting a very specific niche of people. Whenever I'd read a review on the Pandora that would say "don't buy it, you can get a hacked PSP for much cheaper" my heart would sink because that reviewer missed the point completely, but whenever a review would come along that actually explained the pros and cons, noted that it was probably more than most people would be willing to pay but for a very small subset of people it is the perfect device, that's when I congratulate that reviewer for actually doing their job.

 

[Klumpen]

I'd even pay twice the amount of the regular price for some device with features identical to a regular one, if it's by a small company that supports better working conditions, is open and has better support than the hardcore capitalistic big players that always wok against you in some way. Jailbreaking shouldn't be an option.

 

[Natsu]

^Quite frankly, most people don't have the money to pay more for the exact same device.

I disagree, I think this should be market generally to everyone, not towards one group.

There's no reason to make it so secluded.

The marketing should be as versatile as the device itself.

 

[WizardStan]

Quite frankly, most people don't have the money to pay more for the exact same device.

Quite frankly, that's not going to make any difference. If you can't afford it whinging about the price isn't going to magically make production cheaper: it is what it is.

I disagree, I think this should be market generally to everyone, not towards one group then trying to push people out because certain group of people.

No one is pushing out anyone. The price isn't intentionally being set super high so only the richest of the rich can afford it and only the most devoted would consider it, it'll be priced such that EvilDragon can actually produce the thing and still make a modest profit. The only way to possibly make it cheaper would be to start dropping features, something some people will argue should be done, but then it is no longer the same device: EvilDragon is making the device that he himself wants, with community input; it'll be priced according to the features. If you want something cheaper then you will need to look for something with fewer features. If you don't want a keyboard, don't complain that the Pyra has a keyboard, get yourself a Shield. Don't complain that an SUV is too big and expensive, that they'd sell more if it was smaller and cheaper: you don't want an SUV, you want a compact, buy a compact. This is not elitist, this is reality.

 

[A2000]

Yes, for me it will we worth it's prize (be it 500 or 750 €) because it's not shipping with iOS nor Android nor Windows nor MacOS nor any other proprietary OS only but it's fully open! And yes, Android is evil, too.


Wether I can afford the prize is another and totally different question.


Concerning exophase's calculation, I fear that more money has to be added for all that small and big incidents that caused the Pandoras prize to raise over the years. Though ED is well aware of that costly glitches and has proven to be able to manage Pandora's rebirth, it might be better to be prepared for all circumstances. If it turns out after a while, maybe a year of production, that this extra margin is not needed the prize can be lowered and the Pyra will be affordable for more people.


BTW Prizes for my computer hobby when I was young: 1541: 500€; 10 Floppy Disks: 25€; my first CD-ROM drive (3x speed): 350€; A500: 700€; Blizzard 2060: 1000€. And yes, I still have them all !

 

[Natsu]

Quite frankly, that's not going to make any difference. If you can't afford it whinging about the price isn't going to magically make production cheaper: it is what it is.

I meant if everything was the same, but what he (KlumpenP) stated.As in if someone came out with their "Pyra" at $600. He'll pay $1200 for this one.

No one is pushing out anyone.

We need to market to this 0.1%, we need to make it perfectly clear in that marketing that it is targeting a very specific niche of people.

Although, that was before I edited to make it clearer.

 

[Reyhn]

And price is a serious argument.

No. If it needs to be 600EUR in order to be made at all then no amount of arguing will change that. This isn't elitism trying to keep people out, it's reality.

True, but you omit one thing : there are choices to be made before production, that have an impact on the price.

You can clearly see in the threads debating about NAND and RAM (for example) that some people push for the biggest and the fastest no matter the final price. That's a good thing for them if they can afford it but it's not the case for the majority of potential Pyra buyers, so keeping it a reasonnable price with some minor compromises is needed. Hopefully ED is heading towards the good direction IMO. That was my point ^_^

 

[WizardStan]

No one is pushing out anyone.

We need to market to this 0.1%, we need to make it perfectly clear in that marketing that it is targeting a very specific niche of people.

Although, that was before I edited to make it clearer.

That's not pushing anyone out, that's making it very clear who the target is; there's a huge difference. We could say "oh yeah, Pyra is for everyone" but it really isn't: some people don't care about full linux computers in their pocket (imagine that!). Some people just want a game machine. Some people just want a basic MP3 player.It's like my SUV example: some people want or need an SUV and will pay the premium, other people don't need such a big and powerful vehicle and don't understand why such a thing would even exist; those people are better off being given alternate options that are more suited to what they want. There shouldn't be any stigma against telling these people that don't want a Pandora/Pyra that there are other options that would be better suited to their needs. Don't sell a Ferari to a farmer that needs a pickup truck.

True, but you omit one thing : there are choices to be made before production, that have an impact on the price.

Functionality over price. ED is going to put what he wants in there, and yes, price will be a consideration (else he'd just throw the 128GB eMMC in), but it's a balance to be struck, not a serious argument to be had. The arguments will be over the functionality with price being the secondary consideration: 8GB is too small, 32GB is too large, 16GB is just enough, although maybe there's some good arguments that 32GB really is better regardless of price.

 

[_wb_]

True, but you omit one thing : there are choices to be made before production, that have an impact on the price.

Functionality over price. ED is going to put what he wants in there, and yes, price will be a consideration (else he'd just throw the 128GB eMMC in), but it's a balance to be struck, not a serious argument to be had. The arguments will be over the functionality with price being the secondary consideration: 8GB is too small, 32GB is too large, 16GB is just enough, although maybe there's some good arguments that 32GB really is better regardless of price.

Versatility/modularity is still better though. E.g. it's a good thing that 3G/GPS will be an option, so if you can't afford it or don't need it, you don't have to pay for it. For the same reason, I'm pushing for an internal µSD slot instead of a fixed-size eMMC as internal storage. Don't make a compromise if you can avoid it.

But of course there are plenty of compromises that still have to be made: we'll have to pick one SoC, one type and amount of RAM, etc. It's tricky to get the balance right. Aim too low, and you get something cheap that cannot really do much, has to compete with cheap chinese junk, and is basically obsolete before it's even released. Aim too high, and you get something awesome that nobody can afford and that in one or two years will still look not-that-hot but severely overpriced. In both cases it's game over in no time for ED. So it's crucial to aim right, which is not easy, and mostly involves deep technical discussions, not simplistic shouts like "we want it to be the ultimate very bestest device ever!!!" or "it has to be less than $100 to be popular!!!" (some people even combine those two).

 

[Klumpen]

Quite frankly, that's not going to make any difference. If you can't afford it whinging about the price isn't going to magically make production cheaper: it is what it is.

I meant if everything was the same, but what he (KlumpenP) stated.
As in if someone came out with their "Pyra" at $600. He'll pay $1200 for this one.

No, but if "Whateverruthlesscompany" would make a China-Sweatshop-Pyra with some Spyware on it for 300€, I'd still buy EDs one for 600€ instead of jailbreaking the other one and ignoring everything behind it.

it'll be priced such that EvilDragon can actually produce the thing and still make a modest profit.

Profit? ED has to pay all the debts back that he made for us, I don't think that he will earn anything with Pyra, maybe with the next model.

I'd like to think that he earns something with it, but maybe he would have to take 800€ for a Pyra then and that maybe would be too much for me even if I sell all of my other tech, which I already consider.

If you cannot afford something, you have to pass, it is as simple as that.

Sure I would like a bigger appartment than 29m², a big screen, a high end bycicle, travel at least every second year, etc... but it's not possible, so why whine about it?

Everyone has to face the facts in the end.

 

[ZXDunny]

You've all got until next year to put some savings away for this thing.

Back when I were a nipper, I wanted an Amiga 1000 so bad - my Mum said "How much?" when I told her what it cost - she was unimpressed for something I was just going to play games on. My Stepdad however saw the real worth of the Amiga and also that computers were rapdly gaining traction in everyday life, so it would be a worthwhile investment. He insisted that I save up £350 and he would contribute the rest.

I worked like a dog all summer at four paper rounds and an evening job to gather the funds together, and it still took me 6 months to get enough.

And it was worth every penny I paid - I used it every day and for much more than just gaming.

Pyra, if you can see the worth of it, will be priced acceptably. If you just see a gaming console, then it's maybe not for you.

D.

 

[xiongxioi]

What were you doing with that Amiga 1000? Did you share it with your stepdad? Sorry if this is a rather private question. 
But I always thought computers back then could only do tax return and let you hack into games, replacing everyone's face with breasts. 

 

[ZXDunny]

What were you doing with that Amiga 1000? Did you share it with your stepdad? Sorry if this is a rather private question. 

But I always thought computers back then could only do tax return and let you hack into games, replacing everyone's face with breasts.

The usual. Games at first, then artwork with DPaint, music with Aegis Sonix and SoundTracker. Coding in AmigaBASIC, AMOS and eventually 68k assembler. My Stepdad had an apple mac, which was just awful to use - the Amiga made it look like a toy - but he used it for work, so only occasionally messed around on the Amiga.

D.

 

[theweirdn8]

The PS4 is outselling the XboxOne solely on the basis of price.

Price is one of the biggest factors when it comes to buying things.

Why overboard it?

Less than 200 is fine. 

 

[Exophase]

The PS4 is outselling the XboxOne solely on the basis of price.

Price is one of the biggest factors when it comes to buying things.

Why overboard it?

Less than 200 is fine. 

You're not listening. A $200 Pyra isn't possible, not at the volume ED can hope to sell it at and not with manufacturers and distributors he can reliably work with. If you want something that cheap you're going to have to stick to Chinese Android devices. Even Shield isn't so cheap.

This PS4 vs XB1 argument doesn't work. XB1 only has a handful of exclusives, and the cross platform games generally perform worse. The extra features aren't very appealing, save maybe Kinect. Combining that with the increased price tag it's a wonder it sells at all, yet it does and probably enough for MS to not consider it as failing (is doing better than Wii U at any rate). Pyra isn't in such direct competition with anyone, it does several things that other devices simply don't and that's what draws people to it. Will there be some who would buy it only if it were cheaper? Sure. Will it be impossible to turn any kind of profit at the price point ED is setting at? No, and that's what really matters.

 

[klapse]

Why overboard it?

Less than 200 is fine. 

There have been a lot of stupid posts here lately but this is a real contender.

 

[moxie]

The PS4 is outselling the XboxOne solely on the basis of price.

Price is one of the biggest factors when it comes to buying things.

Why overboard it?

Less than 200 is fine. 

Vot?

Yes, I agree. Please do email Sony and Microsoft and tell them to start selling PS4s for under $200. Why overboard it? I mean, seriously, we can't factor in actual cost in our price, now, can we?

*boggle*

 

[Natsu]

I agreed with you until the Wii U point. I think overall, it's still doing better than the Xbox one.