The current Pandoras price tag

[thatgui]

I'm typing this on an iPad 2, haven't found many apps/games that won't work on it. Generally speaking games and apps written for the iPad are developed to work on previous models, purposely so that the dev can reap as much from sales as possible. So all up, I Have to agree with SNESFAN.

But thats is a third party contribution (devs making the extra effort), I thought it was about how much the manufacturer supports its products ?

 

[vcoleiro1]

^ I'm on the latest IOS 7 on the iPad 2, so I can't see your point there either

 

[thatgui]

^ I'm on the latest IOS 7 on the iPad 2, so I can't see your point there either

Don't know very much about iOS device support but looking at this list, I do see a point. But I would not have generalized it in a way that some people here have

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Poor Pandora. First matchup was against the mighty Shield. Now against the defending "champion" Apple. What will be next? Against the most powerful supercomputer in the world that the US will be using in 2030?

 

[SNESFAN]

That says nothing of the lifespan of the device, my first gen iPad and iPod are still alive and kicking as good as day 1. Still play a fair majority of the apps on iOS. My android handhelds in the same generation are in the same boat. If being generations behind hardware wise means end of life then that says a lot about the Pandora as well because there's not only been 3 generations of Pandoras but the chipset is also several generations behind every other device out there. If the definition is end of official support and software updates (the only one I can sort of understand) then that is backing the Pandora deeper into its niche of having a official yet community provided firmware. Might as well say I like to the Pandora because no mainstream manufacturers rely on community provided firmwares. Not that none are available, but the support isn't official. I'm just saying some people are so twisted into the Pandora cult that the lies they are telling themselves (and try to convince others) are sometimes just absurd.

As all generalizations they are likely to fail at some point, but at least partially the argument is valid looking at two big players in the market you mentioned: Apple/iOS and Somemanfuacturer/Android:

Your older iPad/iPod/Android device may stil be alive and kicking, but support for it isn't. Now that's the point where it all depends on how you define wether something "breaks" or not. If you only relate it to a functioning hardware and limit it to the specific use case you had in mind when buying it (I like to run software y with version number x on it), then there is no flaw in your argument. But nowadays with the hardware getting less and less the deciding factor anymore, the software that runs it on it gains in importance in terms on "longlivety".

So looking at how many iOS or Android devices lack the support of their manufacturers nowadays, I think their lifespan is indeed relatively short - why else would alternative Android builds (cyanogenmod and such) have such a high popularity, just because people want more choice ? Not very probable. Or yourself, advocating for a newer Version of Android beeing available for the Pandora - Why ? Only because its newer, or because you would like the benefits the new version offers ?

Looking at the Pandora, after all these years its OS is still actively supported by its manufacturer, and not by the community alone- which gets an interesting spin as from the first thoughts about the Pandora on, the OP Team always said that they feel themselves only responsible for the hardware part.

And I'm not talking about providing some servers and this board, I'm talking about actively working on the system: While most part sure is Notaz, djwillis, skeezix, etc. work, Ed also contributed a lot, and is still doing: like working on a more streamlined settings dialog instead of an "endless" chain of zenity dialogs. Is this the same for your first generation iPod ? 

The argument isn't about which is the best group to be apart of. Its that there's some weird f*Ker's in this group that opinions are so strongly in favor of this that their opinions are so loud and twisted outside of reality that it more than makes up for the lack of actual number of opinions. I've not once seen a "fan" of windows... Yes some like it, but I've never seen a windows fanboy like I do for Linux and even the Pandora. They both just attract extremists. Just read through some of those free software evangelic posts. That's all I'm saying. Come back to reality... Just a bit.

I'm sorry to say that, but that is just pure nonsense - there are always people that create a very strong emotional relation to something, and it sure isn't bound to some brand name. I have seen as many "fanboys" for windows as for linux bringing forth ridiculouse arguments. And I do not see many fanboys around here: look at the "Should I buy a Pandora" threads that the pop up every once in a while - I rarely see any "f*ck windows, f*ck capitalism everything must be open source" (or whatever you like to interpret as evangelism) posts, quite the contrary. I usually see people evaluating the specifics the original poster gives and try to give a recommendation (pro and contra Pandora).

That's why I was asking the person that claimed mainstream devices having a shorter lifespan to actually define what he meant because I feel the comment was complete nonsense and it gave the pandora some unfair biased advantage over everything else that doesn't actually exist in reality. I wanted to hear his rational. I think he's actively avoiding responding to the question though. Possibly because of how I phrased the question. Doesn't matter though, I know the comment was absolute bullshit, I was just trying to call him out on it.

There is many criteria for what someone would consider a device end of life. Me personally would define it as no longer being in current generation of things being released. In PC terms, running a core 2 duo when i5's and i7's saturate the market. (also count the ticks and tocks from intel) There is no good answer as to when a generation becomes obsolete, but I believe once at least 2 architecture jumps have happened on your platform you are out of date. (cortex a8, cortex a9, cortex a15) or (nehalem, sandy bridge, haswell)

I work for the US government, and instead of refining it down to actual specs, they use a year cycle to define end of life. They go with 3 years for a laptop, 5 years for a desktop. They average use cases, and normal everyday use, warranty support, physical wear and last consideration being spec advances over time. And thats the numbers they come up with. I strongly feel those numbers need to be re-looked at to save money because a desktop from 5 years ago is still relevant for most user's use cases. (office programs) where that might not have been the case 10 years ago from the 5 years predating that 10 years. (15 yr old computer vs 10 year old, compared to now vs 5 years ago) Maybe kick that out a couple more years to save money.

Point is end of life and being outdated are very broad terms, most opinions are subjective to how it's used and handled but I believe there is a fuzzy logic behind it all and at some point everyone would agree something is outdated. I think the 2 architecture rule is the best I can come up with. OS versions is too subjective on usecases as long as the majority of current programs support the older OS version. Almost every platform does have backwards support btw. The pandora is one of those weird animals in this way that pretty much forces people to stay on top of updates though I've heard "update to SuperZaxxon" when troubleshooting app programs more times than not. Luckily the compatibility is tied into firmware updates rather than linux kernel versions which we are still a little behind on. 3.2 vs 3.11.

I wouldn't mind an updated android version, but software compatibility is not the reason it needs updated. Bug fixes, more efficient use of resources and added features (2.3 vs 4.4) No I more care for just a solid working version, I don't really care if it was from a still functional android 1.5. Proper device sleeping, full button mapping functions, proper hardware sensor control functions, dual booting. Ya know, the important things, added extra features are nice if everything else works, but "everything else works" is what is on the top of the wish list.

As far as the comment about the evangelical nature of the linux or pandora community. That comment is pretty biased because I spend most of my time on this board instead of windows hobbist forums. But the time I spend on those forums I don't run into the same amount of that small extreme at all. I'm sure they exist, but the average user vs tech user ratio and population and conversation seem to flood out the minority of fanboy posts on windows types of forums. I can't say the problem is huge here either, but I still strongly feel the proportions are still weighed twoards more here than on windows types of forums. And in real life, my friends that are general population of computer users that are scared of linux or don't care for it don't have strong enough opinions twoards either one to be a hater, or supporter. It's what you would consider to just be a preference, not waiving flags or holding holy wars over. Where my linux advocate friends are all the "f*k windows" types of people. As a slight switch to the arguement, check out the "f*k android" types of people around here. You'll see what I'm talking about. It's the same arguement, just different similar subjects. Where the opposite, android people aren't ever "f*k linux" types. The arguement there seems to be between ios and android. But there's an even larger amount of "f*k ios" here. The android hater group on here is a small minority, but the ios hate on this forum... wowzers.

 

[Mr_Loon]

In stead of a price cut it might make sense to add a free TV out cable to all orders for a new Pandora, from my understanding there are only going to be another 500 Pandoras produced but there are over 1000 TV out cables in stock.

 

[Grench]

Supply, Demand and Competition.

Supply is limited. Demand is keeping up with supply. There is no competition.

As long as the consoles continue to be purchased at an acceptable rate to production, they are priced correctly.

It has little to nothing to do with cost of production - so long as that cost and fractional development and miscellaneous costs plus profit are covered within that cost.

Personally I think ED should produce the first hundred or so successor devices, number them 1-100, sign them, and sell them at auction to maximize the return on those. If demand is still pushing prices up, keep selling them that way. Does anyone else remember how the first few Pandoras to ship were immediately cycled to Ebay to sell for @400% over the purchaser's costs? ED should get that lift, not the purchasers.

Price should be whatever the market will bear for the volumes being produced. The price can come down over time as sales at the higher price point eventually falter. Initial sales should maximize profits though.

Now to put on my fire retardant suit for the inevitable tirades of people who feel like they should get the first devices produced at 5% over production cost because they think that is fair and it's all they can afford.

 

[Klumpen]

@Fanboy/Snesfan/Android/Whatever: I responded, I mentioned support, your definition of support is another than mine, stop ranting around and calling me a coward indirectly, just because you do not accept my answer.

I will not invest more time to argue with some stranger on the web about unimportant stuff.

I wonder, why this guy is so upset about my opinion, if he wants a duel, he should come in person.

 

[SNESFAN]

My reason for being upset/ranting is not directed solely at you. But yes you hit one of my buttons. You know the flame wars that happens when someone calls the Pandora outdated? You know, like every single time it happens? Or for that matter whenever anyone criticizes the pandora for anything regardless of how small and insignificant? Those people feel very strongly in favor of their opinions, on both sides of the fence. Terms like fanboy and troll being used quite frequently. I also feel strongly that those opinions are skewed when defense of their beloved that then turns into criticism of other devices and in the extreme, see everything else as somehow inferior. Well my bullshit meter kinda redlines and I gotta say something. Happens to a lot of people. That's the reason behind ranting. I'm not questioning your manliness, nor do we need to solve this in person. I just feel your criteria on which you feel everything else is inferior is improperly researched and holds a strong bias that is also inaccurate. I felt it was a bit insulting that I brought up valid points that a couple people agreed with and you didnt even acknowledge.

 

[Klumpen]

Hardware wise the Pandora is outdated and the build quality of the Chinese case sucks.

So what? No reason to get upset.

Nintendo's systems come out with outdated hardware for ages now and people buy them anyway, because they care for other things, who cares?

People have different definitions and different priorities.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

OK. I think we should stop arguing and head over to the other thread and give ED some moral/mental support for P2 rather than wasting your brain cells over these useless arguments

 

[SNESFAN]

I'm just saying be fair is all. Its a mobile device like every other mobile device out there. It has unique qualities that sets it apart, but those qualities don't make it better in every regard. It has faults like everything else. Nothings perfect, take things at face value. Level playing field as possible.

 

[bzar]

^ I'm quite sure no one is arguing that it's literally perfect. Of course it has faults. Those unique qualities you mentioned are probably dealbreakers for the people you speak of, so for them the other devices are useless.

It's two people buying two swiss army knives, one mostly for screwing screws the other for small pliers. Then the screwdriver-person tells the pliers-person his knife sucks as it only has one screwdriver, and the pliers-person responds by pointing out the total lack of pliers in his knife. Screwdriver-person posits that no-one but few people need pliers, but everyone needs screwdrivers. Pliers-person says multiple screwdrivers are unnecessary in most situations. Fighting ensues. Both of them are right, but don't accept that they have different needs, so they protect and argue for different aspects of knives.

 

[SNESFAN]

I completely understand and appreciate your analogy. It makes sense to a certain degree. But the unique hardware (non changeable) qualities of the Pandora are limited to only a couple items things. Its exact configuration is unique, but it also lacks things other mobiles have when compared to others. And there are solutions for other devices to almost everything the pandora provides hardware wise because of the modular aspect of technology. That's what breaks that analogy. I can use a on screen keyboard and get almost the same utility as a hardware one for example. It's not the same experience but it does the job. Whereas if something has real joysticks the experience is not the same with nubs. Remapping keys is not the same as dedicated physical buttons placed in a senseable configuration R&L2 and so on. Chipset specs also limit the potential functions of what its being compared to as well.

Its all objective, and while I do hear a lot of preference in debates on comparison with other devices. I more times than not hear those preference and opinion type of comments turned into factual arguements. A is universally better than B because it has X and completely ignoring features Y and Z that the other has. Ignoring those extra points might be because of preference, but its still relevant to the comparison.

Software is entirely fluid and the potential for any device to run everything the Pandora runs if someone were to put forth the work in getting it to work, lumps it in with like 90% of the types of mobile devices out there.

 

[TrashyMG]

Software is entirely fluid and the potential for any device to run everything the Pandora runs if someone were to put forth the work in getting it to work, lumps it in with like 90% of the types of mobile devices out there.

 I just don't see people doing the work though.. the majority of the people that have the other devices just use what's handed to them.. The Pandora is a standard platform were us geeky guys can experiment and play around with without hassle, can develop new things.. No one is building an entire community around the Samsung Galaxy phones to get the most out of them, there may be a few fringe people that work on cool things. I get the feeling you just see the rough edges of the Pandora, and dismissing what is actually being accomplishing here. The hardware is fairly irrelevant outside that most want a physical keyboard and game controls. It's the people that rallied behind this device that really makes it great.


Does saying this make me a fanboy, absolutely.

 

[bzar]

I completely understand and appreciate your analogy. It makes sense to a certain degree. But the unique hardware (non changeable) qualities of the Pandora are limited to only a couple items things. Its exact configuration is unique, but it also lacks things other mobiles have when compared to others. And there are solutions for other devices to almost everything the pandora provides hardware wise because of the modular aspect of technology. That's what breaks that analogy. I can use a on screen keyboard and get almost the same utility as a hardware one for example. It's not the same experience but it does the job. Whereas if something has real joysticks the experience is not the same with nubs. Remapping keys is not the same as dedicated physical buttons placed in a senseable configuration R&L2 and so on. Chipset specs also limit the potential functions of what its being compared to as well.

Yes, and a knife can be used as a screwdriver. It is still vastly inferior at it compared to an actual screwdriver when the main purpose is to screw screws. You can sorta use a screwdriver as a hammer too. You do need to consider the performance at which the features that sorta-kinda achieve the same goals do them. To make a cellphone to match my pandora use cases, for example, I'd need a separate gamepad, keyboard, extra battery and a usb hub (if the cellphone even has USB host). Would you consider that a sensible enough amount of stuff to carry around instead of just one device to say the cellphone can do the same stuff?

 

[Klumpen]

Jailbreaks are the most counterproductive thing I can imagine in this regard, especially if they are so popular that people buy these devices only because there is a jailbreak available. The companies that are building closed down devices get money for an open device this way and that's extremely paradox, if you think about it.

 

[SNESFAN]

I respect the non-tangible aspects of the Pandora community adds to the value of the device. In fact its the the single most important aspect I feel. Seeing how it relies entirely on developers that have pandoras to have new software on it. Whereas if it also had android as well that requirement wouldn't be there for new software to be available due to mostly universal compatibility of android software. Android devices don't have as heavy of a dedicated support community (they do exist... ie XDA is literally 1000x the size of this one though)

 

[bzar]

(they do exist... ie XDA is literally 1000x the size of this one though)

8430 vs. 5365937 registered users => 636,52871x the size. When you say "literally" make sure you mean it

 

[SNESFAN]

I completely understand and appreciate your analogy. It makes sense to a certain degree. But the unique hardware (non changeable) qualities of the Pandora are limited to only a couple items things. Its exact configuration is unique, but it also lacks things other mobiles have when compared to others. And there are solutions for other devices to almost everything the pandora provides hardware wise because of the modular aspect of technology. That's what breaks that analogy. I can use a on screen keyboard and get almost the same utility as a hardware one for example. It's not the same experience but it does the job. Whereas if something has real joysticks the experience is not the same with nubs. Remapping keys is not the same as dedicated physical buttons placed in a senseable configuration R&L2 and so on. Chipset specs also limit the potential functions of what its being compared to as well.

Yes, and a knife can be used as a screwdriver. It is still vastly inferior at it compared to an actual screwdriver when the main purpose is to screw screws. You can sorta use a screwdriver as a hammer too. You do need to consider the performance at which the features that sorta-kinda achieve the same goals do them. To make a cellphone to match my pandora use cases, for example, I'd need a separate gamepad, keyboard, extra battery and a usb hub (if the cellphone even has USB host). Would you consider that a sensible enough amount of stuff to carry around instead of just one device to say the cellphone can do the same stuff?

ICP did a good job of filling the gap I feel. And most devices have USB host nowadays. And even if a separate device, it takes up similar or less physical space as one Pandora. While limited, keyboard phones do exist also. Or something like an xperia play with a micro Bluetooth keyboard for example. Those options are for preference though. Having all in one has its advantages but they are preference types, not limitations.