Covid-19 (Coronavirus) - Please stay safe, y'all


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If you believe that our Leaders would lie to us, they want tell you if they lie or not..

I cant ask Merkel: Do you lie to us? Because a "No" may also be a lie. ^^

Askarus: I appreziate your work for the Community, and for EvilDragon and everything, but your opinnion on the Corona thing is something i dont like that much..
 
Askarus: I appreziate your work for the Community, and for EvilDragon and everything, but your opinnion on the Corona thing is something i dont like that much..
You haven't see his hair yet X^D

Not liking an opinion and not liking the arguments/facts forging this opinion is quite different.
 
So...surgeons wear masks during surgery because...the hospitals want to break them?
That is totally different.
I do not only refer to masks.
There are so many rules and restrictions that do not make much sense.
Like:
Soccer is allowed, but other sports is not.
You may meet with persons of a different household but it is not allowed to play tennis (it's not that you came close to each other when playing tennis)

Also there are old people who suffer because they can not be with their family.
For elders it is one of the most important things in life to not be lonely.
Those people need to be protected from loneliness, not COVID-19.
Askarus: I appreziate your work for the Community, and for EvilDragon and everything, but your opinnion on the Corona thing is something i dont like that much..
It is your right to have that opinion about me.
I do not offend others personally.
All I do is to bring up some arguments for what I think is right.
We are in a democracy an one of our highest goods is freedom of speech.
What I see is a lot of people being fundamentally supporters of anti Corona rules and suppressing opposite opinions.

I can not follow blindly what others want me to do.
When evaluating the Corona rules I came to the conclusion that I disagree with some.

Like most of the time my opinion is: Protect those that want to be protected, do not force everyone to be protected.
If old and sick people want to be with their family and take the risk of being infected with Corona and thus die sooner but not lonely, then they must be allowed to.

Edit:
I know that a lot of people will feel offended personally and maybe rate rate me down as a person.
That is why I mostly avoid that discussion and telling my opinion.
However if I stay silent all the time, then I silently agree that there is no real freedom of speech.
We as a democratic society must be able to have an open dialog and be able to discuss such matters without judging each other.
 
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We are in a democracy an one of our highest goods is
censored.jpg
.
Fixed that for you.
I know that a lot of people will feel offended personally and maybe rate rate me down as a person.
Never! You took free time to build Pandoras, relayed Pyra&Pandora news when E.D. was too busy, helped with lots of chores.
Just be careful to not open packages with africanized bees. ;)
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I cant ask Merkel: Do you lie to us? Because a "No" may also be a lie. ^^
But if she says "yes".... could she be lying too?
 
Recently, bookstores were closed. Also some shelves of the supermarket weren't allowed for the customers, e.g. books, music.
Fahrenheit 2021
And after the first fake lockdown, restaurants and bars were open, but masks were mandatory outside.
Only throat cancer people can eat while having that mask on.

In a pandemic situation it really doesn't make sense that the whole family should go in,
It's pretty cold outside...

it has been granted protection against legal claims arising from the use of its vaccine products, since it “cannot take the risk” of liability."
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2030600
sideeffects.jpg
source: https://www.fda.gov/media/143557/download
 
Oh you found it! Yeah, I heard there was a list.

Two nurses that took one of the drugs as part of testing immediately suffered that thing where all of the airways swell up like in an allergic reaction to shellfish or peanuts and nearly died.

They were lucky because they were in the hospital when they took the shots and were able to get epipens (epinephrine?) administered to treat the adverse reaction, so they were saved. They would have been dead within minutes if they weren't in the hospital.

Apparently one or more of the vaccines need to be administered only in hospitals because of the risk factors involved.
 
Made the mistake of looking at the replies to one of my state's tweets about vaccines.

I know Twitter isn't representative of the whole population, but I would put vaccine support on Twitter at maybe 10%. Like, really, seriously low.
 
There are so many rules and restrictions that do not make much sense.
The examples you gave do not make sense to me either but I'd say they're not very universal. In some places the restrictions are a little saner.
Yet there's this common trend of "you can do it if it's something you pay for doing, because... the economy".I do also have the impression
that incoherencies tend to be solved with time. Authorities correct themselves partially...

All I do is to bring up some arguments for what I think is right.
I respectfully disagree with your opinion, but it's no problem at all that you express it, of course.
What I see is a lot of people being fundamentally supporters of anti Corona rules and suppressing opposite opinions.
DIsagreeing is not suppression. Governments routinely don't heed my opinion either.

Like most of the time my opinion is: Protect those that want to be protected, do not force everyone to be protected.
But how do you achieve that in this situation ? Those that don't want protection will eventually interact with those that want protection.
There's nothing sure enough that you can do to stop people being in contagious situations with others, they'll meet in supermarkets,
in healthcare centers, in workplaces, in polling stations, in the pharmacy, etc.

Just like you don't want restrictions forced on you because you have your own risk assesment, we don't want virus forced on us because we have our own risk assesment.
In situations like these it's when government mandates are useful. It'd be great if we had independent democratic governments (I mean answerable to all people equally, not just the rich and so on)
because then their mandates would have more legitimation, but we haven't achieved that (yet?) so we just make do with the government we have.
I often want more restrictions that my government imposes. But I'm forced to accept more risk of virus because my government tries to strike a balance with those that don't want restrictions.
I can live with that so you maybe can also live with that, I don't know.

It's pretty cold outside...
The family does not need to wait outside the supermarket, they should stay at home if it's so cold outside.
Going for a walk is OK, but a supermarket is a closed place where everybody should have the necessary access to get the things they need to survive,
so you can't close them, but you should treat them as a place where people go by necessity, not leisure, and therefore make everything to try to
keep those people that had to go there safe. That includes not entering it more often than needed, not for a longer time than needed and no more people than needed entering it.
That isn't law, it's just common sense.

If cafes are open and the family wants to go into one that's maybe not ideal, but it is a little more their option, normally nobody else needs to go to a cafe.
If the situation is bad one would expect cafes to be closed. But supermarkets will stay open whatever the situation, so we should use prudence there.


If I understand the presentation in that link, and assuming that's something approved, not a proposal (I didn't check context), I interpret this as a watch out list for anything serious that could happen,
not any list of problems that someone has seen or someone suspects that will occur after taking some of the vaccines (it also [EDIT: sorry] doesn't [ / EDIT] specify which of the COVID-10 vaccines). It's a new vaccine, so
they don't want it to cause any of these things. It doesn't[EDIT: sorry] mean that one of the vaccines causes all that, or some of that. The page before reads:

15“Near real-time surveillance” or rapid-cycle analyses (RCA)
FDA plans on monitoring 10 -20 safety outcomes of interest to be determined based on:
–Pre-market review of sponsor safety data submitted to FDA
–In coordination with federal partners, international regulatory partners and organizations, academic experts, others
–Literature and regulatory experience with similar vaccines, novel vaccine platforms, and using other relevant data
–FDA plans on using CMS datafor COVID-19 vaccine RCA – near real time with efforts

So only the first reason to put items on the list would be that they know, suspect or have any hint of evidence that a vaccine could cause that.
There're also items there based on expert concerns, experience with other vaccines etc.

It kind of confirms we're having a weird phase 4 (watching what it does to the population) that is somehow adapted to a too limited phase 3 (watching what it does to many volunteers),
so they rush it onto the population and have to keep watching for what it does.
They do something like this with all new vaccines, but usually they have more data on the phase 3, so they're not so uncertain in phase 4. I'm not sure how responsible it is to rush phase 3,
but assuming that, then it is somewhat encouraging that they try to reinforce phase 4.

It does not change my impression that we have too little data, but also that we don't seem to have data indicating that the vaccines are unsafe. We just don't know. They seem to be safe.
Two nurses that took one of the drugs as part of testing immediately suffered that thing where all of the airways swell up like in an allergic reaction to shellfish or peanuts and nearly died.

They were lucky because they were in the hospital when they took the shots and were able to get epipens (epinephrine?) administered to treat the adverse reaction, so they were saved. They would have been dead within minutes if they weren't in the hospital.

What I read is that those two nurses had had anaphylaptic shocks before, and that's why they carried their epipens with them. [sorry if I'm not getting my lexicon right]
So it just shows it can cause anaphilaptyc shocks to people who have anaphilaptyc shocks. That might happen with other vaccines too.
And 2 cases is just too few (yet). But you will believe what you want to, Robert. Sometimes you look like a selective exceptic, more than a genuine exceptic that would also doubt of his own sources.

I swear to god, you don't even have to look for this stuff. Just browser normally and the links just pop up:


Unbelievable.

Well, they at least tested the vaccine well enough to discover this and won't use that vaccine. It looks like it wouldn't have caused AIDS to anyone,
but if you vaccinate for COVID-19 everybody and then you find out you can no longer test people for AIDS, you have a big problem.
From the article it doesn't seem this is something that should happen to the other vaccines. The Queensland one used a part of HIV to carry the COVID spike protein[EDIT[,
so it could generate HIV antibodies. It'd be great if that would immunize you to both COVID-19 and AIDS, but I don't think it's that easier.

Just looked up 'myocardial infarction'. That's a heart attack. 'Acute' means just a little one though, right? Nothing to be scared of.

I'm no authority, but I've always thought "acute" means something that happens once, as opposed to "chronical", something that keeps repeating or never goes away.
I don't think "acute" means "light", to me it sounds like "sharp", "strong", "serious", but not long lasting.
But use a medical dictionary, ask a doctor, or listen to someone more knowledgeable than me.

I will take the vaccine, but man, does the marketing suck.

I'd also like to have more clear data in the open. I don't know. Do what your doctors tell you, I guess.

I know Twitter isn't representative of the whole population, but I would put vaccine support on Twitter at maybe 10%. Like, really, seriously low.

Twitter is just marketing, and bots, and some proportion of people with too much time, too little inclination for reading texts long enough to say something, and too little attention span who are the fuel the marketers and bots use.
It has the cunning, balance and sophistication of a mob with forks and torches.
Still, little support now is understandable given the little data and the opacity. We'll see how it goes when there's more data. Most people I know and the surveys I read say people aren't completely against the vaccines,
but many don't want to be the first ones, just because they're not conviced there's enough data yet. No problem, they can't all be the first ones. Eventually they may accept it. There's also not much need to convince everyone at once.
I find it reasonable and heathwarming that people doubt about it now.
 
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The major problem I see is how responsibility is taken away from individuals.
We must teach people to think and judge on their own.
Not to rely on the government.
So many people are too lazy to think now.
We need people to take responsibility for their actions.
We need to teach them to judge situations on their own, not to follow every rule just because it's a rule.

But how do you achieve that in this situation ? Those that don't want protection will eventually interact with those that want protection.
There's nothing sure enough that you can do to stop people being in contagious situations with others, they'll meet in supermarkets,
in healthcare centers, in workplaces, in polling stations, in the pharmacy, etc.

Force no one to go out.
Establish more delivery services and take-away services for supermarkets.
Allow everyone to wear masks and support each person that does want to be protected.

Make huge advertisement campaigns to take care about your siblings if they have higher risk of dying due to COVID-19.
Allow and encourage people to act responsible on their own.

The main issue I have with Corona rules are, that I may not judge on my own and am forced to act in ways i think are not logical.
I am not against everything. For example I do not mind to study online now this semester.

I know it is hard to be responsible for your own actions.
And a lot of people don't want to think, judge and be responsible of the outcome.
In my opinion that is wrong and leads to mindlessly following those who are in power or anyone who shows you an "easy" way to follow.
 
The major problem I see is how responsibility is taken away from individuals.
We must teach people to think and judge on their own.
Not to rely on the government.
So many people are too lazy to think now.
We need people to take responsibility for their actions.
We need to teach them to judge situations on their own, not to follow every rule just because it's a rule.
I appreciate that, but it some case it doesn't work. Specially with public health.
If you let everyone do what they want, a few stronger ones will dominate the weak.
Some people will judge the situations but don't care of the consequences, and abuse others.
So, there's a balance to be found, it's not white or black.

Force no one to go out.
That's saying no restrictions for you, all restrictions for me. What if I want a little for each so I can go out with care because the others also use some care?
Establish more delivery services and take-away services for supermarkets.
That might work somewhere but it's quite limited. The delivery workers will be forced to enter many appartment blocks with closed elevators and staircases where someone could have just coughed,
which increases the risks compared with a relative controlled and disciplined supermarket where someone can guarantee a little disinfection. Delivery workers become contagion vectors.
Not everyone lives in a standalone house where they can leave parcels in the garden or curb.

Allow everyone to wear masks and support each person that does want to be protected.

Make huge advertisement campaigns to take care about your siblings if they have higher risk of dying due to COVID-19.
Allow and encourage people to act responsible on their own.
It just doesn't work like this. A mask reduces the possibility to spread the virus, or to inhale it but it does not eliminate that possibility.
Masks work when everybody wears them, not just whoever wants to.
If you only care for risk groups, they'll die just the same because there'll be more viral load in the other groups that will eventually reach them becase the hisgh risk groups don't leave in bubbles.
And if you make them live in bubbles you're just condemning them to psychological disease to save them from COVID-19. Since the not so high risk groups still have risks and can die from COVID-19 the solution is to have everyone care for everyone, not just for elders.
The high risk groups are not only elders, or people you can easily identify. When you get together with someone in an elevator you won't know he's imnunosuppressed because he had a kidney transplant or whatever. Should they all carry a sign saying "in risk of this and that", or post their clinical records on her back, just because you don't want to wear a mask ?
And masks, and many other restrictions are not so aggressive.
You always were forced to wear clothes in public, you always were forced to keep some distance from people. It's just now a required cloth (mask) and a minimum distance.
It's an imposition, but it's not such a serious one.

The main issue I have with Corona rules are, that I may not judge on my own and am forced to act in ways i think are not logical.
I am not against everything. For example I do not mind to study online now this semester.
Yes, and that's the problem also with traffic laws and taxes and so on.
And it's great to call for own judgment. But it's also true that we don't each have all the data and all the time to study and sometimes we can come
to better results if we trust some experts to study things and come up with rules.
It's not either or. It's a balance. We should also be able to discuss things and come to collective judgements, and then respect them even when we don't agree because we had a chance to influence them.

I know it is hard to be responsible for your own actions.
And a lot of people don't want to think, judge and be responsible of the outcome.
In my opinion that is wrong and leads to mindlessly following those who are in power or anyone who shows you an "easy" way to follow.
It's OK, but you live with many people, and are affected with what other people do too, and your judgement is also restrained by the information you have...
 
Pyrat, but you are basically wrong about everything you posted in support of collective action, chinese virus corrective action and all of that. Here is why:

1) In January we had videos of people dropping dead in the streets (now we think they were probably faked) and we did not know much about the chinese virus. There was plenty of reason to justify the rules we have in place today based on those perceived facts at that time.

2) Today, the chinese virus turns out to be so benign we have 70 year olds surviving it easily, so much so that the situation is the same as last year: if no one was talking about it (like last year) this would just be another flu season and you wouldn't even know it was going on.

Everything that you just said is basically invalidated by the epidiomoligical reality of the situation: we lucked out, the chinese virus is behaving like a normal flu.

Here is the evidence: look at this thread and all of the media, you will see ONLY TWO THINGS:

1) INCOMPETENCE - All of the posts, links and numbers show that our dotors, scientists and politicians are incompetent. 100% incompetent, because ...

2) EVIDENCE - There are no people dying in the streets, 70 year olds surviving the chinese flu easily and our hospitals are empty.

If every procedure and every process you are arguing in favour of has done nothing, then those things are useless and wrong and we have simply hurt a lot of people for no reason at all.

This thread has really made this plainly clear too. The only data that we see is of scientists, doctors and politicians making bad decisions. We don't see people dying, we don't see hospitals overrun and we see 70 year olds surviving the chinese virus easily. I would be happy to be wrong, someone please point me to links of anything. We don't even have links to crazy right wing, left wing, clutists or other kinds of sites of anything at all supporting that this is a sever situation.

And please note, no one in this thread looked for evidence of anything. We are just chatting and finding things accidentally and we are all starting to see the pattern just by accident. We are all reading everything online and there are absolutely zero links or reports from any organization, no matter how credible, that has shown that the chinese virus is even an issue of any sort.

This whole conversation has turned into trying to justify fear and hurting people in the support of a set of fantasy beieifs.
 
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Pyrat, but you are basically wrong about everything you posted in support of collective action, chinese virus corrective action and all of that. Here is why:
I don't think this post will help much, but anyway...

1) In January we had videos of people dropping dead in the streets (now we think they were probably faked) and we did not know much about the chinese virus. There was plenty of reason to justify the rules we have in place today based on those perceived facts at that time.
We should have reacted earlier mostly everywhere, I agree. But I'm not sure what are you talking about fake videos.

2) Today, the chinese virus turns out to be so benign we have 70 year olds surviving it easily, so much so that the situation is the same as last year: if no one was talking about it (like last year) this would just be another flu season and you wouldn't even know it was going on.
There are more deaths than other years. I know people who died of this this year and wouldn't have had it otherwise.
I know people who suffered many months with COVID-19. Personally. Close. It's no joke, it's no conspiration. They all had the flu other years.It's not the same.
The way the people I know lived does also have a correlation with who got COVID-19. Basically those who had to work in closed spaces with other people or those who had to meet many different people. Or those who were careless.
My experience matches more what I read about COVID-19 than what you say.

Everything that you just said is basically invalidated by the epidiomoligical reality of the situation: we lucked out, the chinese virus is behaving like a normal flu.
No. It is not. The normal flu doesn't have so serious consequences in some cases and doesn't have so many asymptomatic carriers spreading it.
The deaths are not like they used to be.

Here is the evidence: look at this thread and all of the media, you will see ONLY TWO THINGS:
I'm sorry, but I think you see what you want to see. It's OK to be paranoid, it's OK to be critical of what one reads, but one has to do it in a way that if it was true one could recognize it.
If one just discards whatever doesn't matches one's preconception and takes whatever reinforces it, that's not critical reading at all, it's just fear of the truth.

1) INCOMPETENCE - All of the posts, links and numbers show that our dotors, scientists and politicians are incompetent. 100% incompetent, because ...
But man, put yourself in my shoes for a moment.
Someone comes telling me I should believe him and not people that studied their fields for years because he says they're incompetent because he knows better.
Really ? I mean it might be dangerous when you drive in a lane where all the other drivers drive wrongly in the opposite direction to yours. I understand they're all wrong, sure, but maybe you could change something...
There are politicians, scientists and doctors that are incompetent and there are some who are not. They just don't all conspire to fool you.
But they have studies and experince in their fields, certainly more that I have and possibly more than you.
If they're incompetent then I'm even more incompetent than them. And I don't seem to have a way to become more competent, what I could do, dedicate my life to it like they have done? That's apparently not enough.
There are indeed economic and cultural interests and biases than may affect many people and distort things, but not so much.

2) EVIDENCE - There are no people dying in the streets, 70 year olds surviving the chinese flu easily and our hospitals are empty.
I don't know about Canada. I find it has a low population density, which sounds good, specially for COVID-19.
Where I am the hospitals are full of patients. Some might start to be empty of doctors, nurses and stuff, because they're stressed, ill, poorly payed and some quit, or because the administration doesn't allocate enough budget for more staff.
Many of them are also seriously pissed off to hear people saying there's no problem and not caring to do what they can to protect everybody.
COVID-19 is a serious pandemic. It's not a zombie movie or a XIII century plague. People don't die in the streets. They die in hospitals, residences, and appartments, they get moved to morgues and funerals.
If you can't be bothered for anything that doesn't cause you to step over corpses in your way to the shops, then that's just you being you.

If every procedure and every process you are arguing in favour of has done nothing, then those things are useless and wrong and we have simply hurt a lot of people for no reason at all.
Those procedures have not been very well followed. And we don't know where we'd be without them. And I don't see all those hurt people on the streets either.

This thread has really made this plainly clear too. The only data that we see is of scientists, doctors and politicians making bad decisions. We don't see people dying, we don't see hospitals overrun and we see 70 year olds surviving the chinese virus easily.
I don't think I'll be able to come and tell you when I've died of COVID-19. But if I could, I'd gladly do it. You still wouldn't believe it, but I'd be fun. Christmas tales and all...
I've seen 70 old people die. Fortunately not all of them, so some survive, and thence it's not bad enough for you. Really doesn't make you look good in my eyes, frankly.
And hospitals are overrun.
This whole conversation has turned into trying to justify fear and hurting people in the support of a set of fantasy beleifs.
Yes, fear of masks, fear of a least consumist life, fear of accepting the possibility that one might not be invulnerable, fear of accepting reality.
Hurting people by passing viruses on them that have them months in bed or kill them, that leave them unable to carry on their lives as they used to.
Hurting people by evidencing that they're in a world full of people that just don't care for the wellbeing of their neighbours.
All for the fantasy that if your belief is strong enough nothing won't hurt you, and you won't have to accept anything hurts others. At least anything you could do something about.
 
Fahrenheit 2021
Oh no, it's much more stupid than that.

1. Government decided to close down all "non-essential" business, as during the first lockdown.
2. Supermarkets are considered "essential" since they're where most people get their food from.
3. Supermarkets sell many stuff besides food, including "non-essential" stuff.
4. Owner of libraries, that have already suffered during the first lockdown, complain that people are able to buy books from supermarkets
5. Many intellectuals decide to raise a ruckus because in France showing that you love book is a way to state that you're intellectually superior (it's even better if you disdain anything other than some subset you consider to be literature)
6. Government decide to forbid supermarkets to sell books, so that librarians don't have to be afraid of people buying all their books from supermarkets.

That's why I really don't subscribe to the whole "governments are imposing stuff to control people/make them go crazy". I mean, it's just part incompetence and part inability to do anything since they've been spending the last 20 years or so cutting down on public infrastructure and still seem to think that the only way you can solve problem is by giving rich people even more money.
 
I don't think this post will help much, but anyway...

I appreciate the perspective. That was a great post.

In support of your point, while 9 members of my family had the chinese flu with varying experiences, they also tell me they know one 40 year old with covid that is very severely ill and another 51 year old that apparently died from it.

They live in a very low density area of Europe.

I cannot explain how the small villages in their areas are full of people with the flu and areas with incredibly high densities of population like Korea and japan have extremely few.

I asked my Korean clients and they said that Korea has strict immigration laws, highly socialized medical system (not sure what that means, but they are strict about quaranteening people) and they said that in their culture they wear masks all the time anyway as a matter of courtesy to others when ill. I think it's the same in Japan.
 
That's why I really don't subscribe to the whole "governments are imposing stuff to control people/make them go crazy". I mean, it's just part incompetence and part inability to do anything since they've been spending the last 20 years or so cutting down on public infrastructure and still seem to think that the only way you can solve problem is by giving rich people even more money.

What a great post.

I just wanted to add that you would be surprised how effective it can be to both ADD social services and CUT social services in any particular region. There are times where it is effective to add resources, but, most of the time?

Never understimate how incredibly powerful and incredibly valuable it is to fire 25% of your staff at any random time.
 
I think this whole Situation is escalading, whe have a group of peaple that is demonstrating against the corona laws, some of them in a right political spectrum, conspiraty theorists, naturopaths, QANON, or "Reich Citicens" etc,
I dont think that Ascarus is one of them, or at least i hope,
whe tend to generalize peaple whit opinions whe dont share, whitout the look on the background they have..

Allthough it shouldnd care us what the opinions of other are, as long whe dint get harmed from them..

On the Corona Thing, this means: as long you are in contact whit the mask refuser whit just one Internet Lenght Distance, everything is fine,
But if i would meet them in Reallity, i would tell them to make a lot of distance..

That our Gouverment wants to let the "Country Open" over the Chrismass Days, and then make a Though Lockdown until mid November is quite useless: I would also close on Chrismass, because whit Chrissmass Songs Singing, Under the Tree, and whit the Churches, and everything, its quite dangourus, not even thinking about the Shopping ..

I wrote that in french, they arend allowed to shoot rockets on Sylvester outdoor, so i think they will make this indoor ^^
 
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