COVID-19 / Coronavirus Pandemic


netcat

Very Active Member
Joined
May 3, 2016
Messages
676
Location
city of thieves
If someone is injected and gets covid-19 then he would hardly notice the symptoms meaning that he would probably still go outside and thus infect other people.
Last year's argument. You are denying new evidence.
but I don't think drawing lines and rushing judgments on how people come to their conclusions helps.
sorry. I am emotional.
philosophically sound stance against a society
now is not the time to be philosophical / hypothetical.
 

TeDaDeS

Hardcore Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2004
Messages
1,383
Location
The Netherlands
Website
Visit site
A healthy debate about the current situation:

sorry. I am emotional.
That's okay. Here's a picture of a cute kitten that might improve your mood a tiny bit:
cheer_up.jpg
"Netcat, I kmeow that cat!"
 

Phlyra

FLOSSing
Joined
Jul 25, 2019
Messages
1,517
SAGE (let alone iSAGE) was recommending wider/stricter use of masks from September, yet govts across the UK only just now - two months later - encouraging that. In schools, masks are to be worn in “communal” areas like corridors...but not necessarily in classrooms :mad:
 

Phlyra

FLOSSing
Joined
Jul 25, 2019
Messages
1,517

N.B. A significant limitation of this analysis is that any studies not published in English were excluded - English exceptionalism strikes again!
 
Last edited:

JDTAY

Half Pepperoni, All Cheese
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Messages
2,641
Age
34
Location
North Carolina, USA
President Biden's going to address the US about Omicron in about fifteen minutes. I imagine he will say something along the line of, "Buy all the toilet paper. Buy it now!"
 

levi

Still fresh, damnit!
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
15,224
Location
Somewhere off the coast of the EU
Oh man, apparently 13 people on a Portuguese soccer team got Omicron, but the real kicker is that only one of them had been to South Africa.

Perhaps the one got infected and spread the disease to the other 12? Omicron is posited to be especially infectious, and knowing football teams they tend to spend a lot of time together, and can't wear masks when playing and perhaps not in the dressing rooms.
 

JDTAY

Half Pepperoni, All Cheese
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Messages
2,641
Age
34
Location
North Carolina, USA
After banning all foreigners from entering the country, Japan confirmed its first case of Omicron in a Japanese guy returning from Namibia. Now we get to see how effective isolation is against this thing.
 

pyrat

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
799
With some groups saying the spike protein is bad for you, won't it also be bad for you if you catch the virus?
I guess those groups are counting on not getting the virus? Because yes, in principle the virus replicates itself so it can cause an unbounded amount of spike protein in your body.
And the vaccines or whatever you want to call them (for me vaccines) don't replicate, so they only cause your body to get a bounded amount of spike protein.
In the case of Novavax or Hipra the (pending approval) vaccines (will) contain the spike protein directly (or a protein that looks similar enough).
In the case of Coronavac the vaccine conains broken (by heat or chemichals) SARS-CoV2 virus that contains the spike protein. I understand those virus cannot replicate.
In the case of Pfizer or Moderna they give mRNA instructions to human cells to produce the spike protein. The human cells eventually die and stop producing spike protein. I guess they don't replicate (mithosis) before dying, or if they do they don't copy the instructions along.
In the case of Janssen, AstraZeneca or Sputnik V they give ADN instructions to human cells to produce the spike protein. But the virus is unable to replicate, so once the human cells die, they stop producing spike proteins.

Now there was that study suggesting that the T-Cells of naturally immune health workers in UK were reacting to diferent proteins, some replicative polimerase which seemed to be more efficient than targetting the spike protein. So if that leads anywhere we may one day have vaccines (different than the currently authorised) that stop SARS-CoV-2 but don't put spike proteins in your body. Maybe. Hopefully. It's too soon and too hypotethical.


I didn’t say they were but the fact is they made the Type III trial the main roll out, which is not exactly “proceeding with an abundance of caution”...
My other point about long term effects still stands because two years have literally not yet passed and remember that for Moderna and Pfizer-BionTech, we’re talking about administering something that under the pre-Covid-19 definition wasn’t technically a vaccine (though it tries to get the body to produce its own) and whilst mRNA approaches had been tested for ~a decade by the time of Covid-19, AFAIA any trials had only taken place in mice/rats?
I'm not sure. I think mRNA technology had been used before in human trials, but the trials failed (the substance the mRNA instructed to make was made but turned out not useful enough). But maybe I remember somethign wrong.
In any case your point stands. The clinical trials for AZ, Pfizer, Janssen, etc. stated a trial period of 2 years. Then I think their results were considered good enough early on and they decided to stop the trial short (to give vaccine to the control group that only got placebo, because otherwise the risk of them catching COVID-19 was considered irresponsible).


You could summarize it as:
When there is a risk to taking the vaccine for you personally, you should have a choice.
If it's forced, there should be someone responsible in case you are harmed.
It kind of makes sense, but it's not what we do.
I mean there's a risk to breathing the city air, and city dwellers are forced to breathe it, but nobody is responsible for them.
I think it's more that if not taking the vaccine poses a risk to others then the others can force you to take it (in kind of self defence).
Like you can't smoke in many places because there's a risk to others.
But when exactly? can we force someone to take vaccine if there're people anywhere than want to take it and can't? And do we know we have the capacity to give vaccines to all the world as often as needed before we start forcing someone to take part in something we maybe can't pull out anyway?
And how much proof do we need that not taking the vaccine is a risk to others ? (I'm not so convinced that's the case, it might be, but then how long? how sure? how more than other measures? is that not the same logic that would lead to have only one vaccine authorised, whatever is deemed best? if you are not allowed to stay unvaccinated why should you be allowed to be suboptimally vaccinated ? )
But there's a problem in setting precedents. Forcing someone to get a substance in their bodies is no trivia. In many cases there's not even enough with saying yes, they require you to sign it if they give you anesthetics or some substances, but
in general no doctor or nurse does ever put anything in your body if you say no. Even if they know it's good for you, it's you the only person who can say what's good for you. And when it's not you is your tutor or a judge. Not the government without even looking at you.


Last year's argument. You are denying new evidence.
Likely. What new evidence ? There's more people vaccinated every month but I'm seeing new waves in places with reasonably high vaccination. If vaccination stops spread how come there are places with more cases now that there're more people vaccinated than when there were fewer ?
sorry. I am emotional.
no problem.
now is not the time to be philosophical / hypothetical.
It is time to be philosophical. It always is, but specially when having to take difficult decisions. What the hell else do you think philosophy is good for ?
President Biden's going to address the US about Omicron in about fifteen minutes. I imagine he will say something along the line of, "Buy all the toilet paper. Buy it now!"
Thanks for telling us. I've read he's just said "keep calm and buy vaccines" ? At the same time Europe, resisting patent waivers, stops the Africans from going to a meeting trying to drop the patents so the southern hemisphere can afford vaccines.
And what does Xi Jinping do meanwhile ? In a videoconference to Senegal he promises 1000000000 vaccine doses for Africa (0.72 doses per capita) (with strings attached).
Now lets see how good the current vaccines are for omicron and whether new vaccines, if needed, will be unequally distributed worldwide again.
 

FBnil

I promise to cut my personal CO2 emissions by 2060
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
4,572
Location
Yurp
If it's forced, there should be someone responsible in case you are harmed.
You are responsible yourself. And in 78 years you can apply for an indemnification.

With some groups saying the spike protein is bad for you, won't it also be bad for you if you catch the virus?
You make a very good point. I've been pondering about that myself. My conjecture is that yes, those spike-balls are also not very good for your health, causing the same *-itis (inflammations). But it's all about proportions. Water is good, flooding is not.
So with the natural virus, it comes into your eyes, sticks to the inside of your nose, travels into your lungs. Infects you little by little. The other one is injected directly into your muscle and sometimes bloodstream, and if it was injected correctly into your muscle tissue, then 75% will still roam around in your bloodstream. That's the difference between storming the pentagon from the outside and teleporting directly into the command-and-control center.
Virii are small, so these also pass through placenta and blood-brain barriers and can also have affect fertility, like the spikes do.
 

Phlyra

FLOSSing
Joined
Jul 25, 2019
Messages
1,517
View attachment 37662
Good article though quite why he needed to change the title to something that contradicts the conclusion I don’t know. Also, it would have been more professional to explain why the MIT study was implausible...
 

pyrat

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
799
So with the natural virus, it comes into your eyes, sticks to the inside of your nose, travels into your lungs. Infects you little by little.
If I have to die I prefer it fast. But what's little about exponential growth? The natural virus reproduces inside your body. It only infects you little by little if your immune system is able to stop it. Yes, some humans are able to do that without vaccines, but many (most?) can't. And I have no way to know whether I can. The whole point of vaccines is hinting your immune system to have some of the work already done when the real virus shows up, in hope that that helps the immune system to keep the virus infecting little by little until beat.

The other one is injected directly into your muscle and sometimes bloodstream, and if it was injected correctly into your muscle tissue, then 75% will still roam around in your bloodstream. That's the difference between storming the pentagon from the outside and teleporting directly into the command-and-control center.
There are also vaccines designed to be (swallowed? or) inhalated, if you prefer (but I think they're not authorised yet).
But how do you know the natural virus won't get into your bloodstream too ? The blodstream reaches everywhere in the body. Yes the body has barriers between the interior and the exterior, but the lungs need to exchange gases, so there are ways. Some virus end up more localised, but SARS-CoV-2 is very multiorgan. Yes, mostly respiratory, but you get new reports of it attacking other organs every now and then.
Virii are small, so these also pass through placenta and blood-brain barriers and can also have affect fertility, like the spikes do.
Yes, exactly. And virii keep creating more virii (with their corresponding spikes) as they infect cells.
 

JDTAY

Half Pepperoni, All Cheese
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Messages
2,641
Age
34
Location
North Carolina, USA

Wall Street Journal article, so I can't read the whole thing, but it appears that COVID-19 antibody treatments are less effective against Omicron. This would also seem to indicate that the antibodies people have been producing up until now in response to either the disease or the vaccine are also less effective against Omicron.
 

wdt

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
125
>I'm not sure. I think mRNA technology had been used before in human trials, but the trials failed (the substance the mRNA >instructed to make was made but turned out not useful enough). But maybe I remember somethign wrong.
You remember wrong, only unsuccessful trials so far, animal before this, how's life as a lab rat?
The majority of people have innate resistance or only get a very mild case
So,, not very many spike proteins are made
Get the death jab, your immune system is damaged,'warped',, now you can get a normal infection
(not right away, after a few months when the 'protection' fades)
How very democratic, all equally f'ed,,, except for those who got saline and Vit I
Manditory vaxination would be OK for a disease that actually killed more than 0.5%,,
IF and ONLY if the treatment was reasonably safe and reasonably effective
SNAFU
 

Phlyra

FLOSSing
Joined
Jul 25, 2019
Messages
1,517
your immune system is damaged,'warped',, now you can get a normal infection
(not right away, after a few months when the 'protection' fades
You’ll find that amongst unvaccinated people as well due to improved hygiene measures designed to limit the transmission rate (which, at first, might sound counterintuitive).
 
Last edited:

wdt

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
125
Yes, immune systems need to be lightly challenged to be most fit, to not become 'flabby'
More on phizer's wonderful QC (damn shocking)
And, of course, that’s assuming the poor quality control is an honest mistake.
----
I don't make that assumption, I think they are trying to kill us, YMMV
 
Last edited:

pyrat

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
799
>I'm not sure. I think mRNA technology had been used before in human trials, but the trials failed (the substance the mRNA >instructed to make was made but turned out not useful enough). But maybe I remember somethign wrong.
You remember wrong, only unsuccessful trials so far, animal before this, how's life as a lab rat?
It can be. I've looked it up and it's more complex. Lots of incremental contributions. But yes, sounds very recent if you count trials with all the parts in the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines (chemically modified RNA, ionized nanolipids around it...)

By the beginning of 2020, Moderna had advanced nine mRNA vaccine candidates for infectious diseases into people for testing. None was a slam-dunk success. Just one had progressed to a larger-phase trial.
Another article details
One was CureVac in Tübingen, Germany, which began human testing of a rabies vaccine in 2013[5]. CureVac also has a COVID-19 vaccine in late-stage testing.

The other was Moderna, which built on work funded by DARPA to eventually bring an RNA-based vaccine for a new strain of avian influenza into clinical testing in late 2015. It elicited strong enough immune responses6 that the company moved ahead with human trials of RNA vaccines for cytomegalovirus (a common cause of birth defects), two mosquito-borne viruses (chikungunya and Zika) and three viral causes of respiratory illness in children.

GlaxoSmithKline, which had acquired most of Novartis’s vaccine assets, also began evaluating an RNA-based rabies vaccine in 2019.

That was the full extent of clinical development for RNA vaccines at the beginning of 2020: only a dozen candidates had gone into people; four were swiftly abandoned after initial testing; and only one, for cytomegalovirus, had progressed to a larger, follow-on study.
I don't make that assumption, I think they are trying to kill us, YMMV
And do they need such complex research to kill us ? They were killing us alright already with tobacco, palm oil, pollution and social networks. It's their hobby to find ever more misterious ways or what ?
 

Phlyra

FLOSSing
Joined
Jul 25, 2019
Messages
1,517
It can be. I've looked it up and it's more complex. Lots of incremental contributions. But yes, sounds very recent if you count trials with all the parts in the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines (chemically modified RNA, ionized nanolipids around it...)


Another article details


And do they need such complex research to kill us ? They were killing us alright already with tobacco, palm oil, pollution and social networks. It's their hobby to find ever more misterious ways or what ?
I stand corrected, thanks for that!
 
Top