Console Wars

[Phawx]

I don't consider handhelds to be consoles. Also the Xbox and PS3 are around the same size:

It's not in the size that matters, it's what it can do. If you apply the same premise that you're trying to apply here, the Wii isn't a console.

Performance-wise, it's probably shy of a Wii, but it's definitely weighing in as a console class device that fits in the palm of your hand.



I was only comparing the size of the orginal xbox to the PS3 because Marko said it was "kind of a monster". Personally for me I like that they included the PSU inside of those systems. External PSU are still heavy and take space.

Wasn't directed at you Svartalf, sorry. I've corrected my post above.

 

[Drack]

If you want an open source console, just use a Linux PC.

There really isn't any challenge there.

 

[WizardStan]

The benefit to creating an Linux based console over just a Linux PC would be standardised hardware. You could then build your OS around this specific set, and build software specifically for all that without worrying about graphics requirements or resolutions or missing libraries, or any of the other fiddly bits you would have to worry about. Everything just works.
At which point in time you may as well just call it a Mac.

 

[lulzfish]

Yes, and since some companies already build Linux PCs, I propose we use one of the cheaper system76 systems as the standard base and just program games for them.

So, like... just make games that work well under Ubuntu. Ding. Console.
And make them multiplayer. Out of all the things PCs can do, consoles still dominate local multiplay like Smash Brothers. it's really weird.

 

[MiniSinisterMinister]

I think the main difference between something openpanodare would make and a standard Linux PC would be the price, the size and the input method. Consoles and handhelds have to be smaller and much more affordable than a PC to be successful. Furthermore I really like the user interface of the Wii internet browser. Openpandora could make a small set-top-box based on the Pandora but with 1080p HDMI video output instead of just S-Video and an innovative controller that functions similar to the Wiimote but has more buttons. There will be nothing like that before Wii 2 comes out. But I doubt that Nintendo will give its next console the ability to play many video formats etc. anyway. They have always been restrictive with what you can do with their hardware. Maybe Sony or Ms next console can do all that and will have an innovative controller.

 

[lulzfish]

True, you would want something low-power and cheap. But I'm still not sure how well it would sell since you could buy the parts for such a thing online, and it doesn't do a lot more than the PCs most people already own.

 

[marko]

@Phawx - the 360 does the external brick which is a nuisance. Granted XBMC is very very good but there are feature limitations due to copyright, drm etc etc.
Linux console with standardised hardware, making relatively simple development.
Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo don't make consoles based on what the users want. They make consoles that they think the user wants and try to convince them to that tune.
An OP conceived console would be driven by real user/developer requirements which hopefully could be delivered on - eventually :-0

 

[Chip]

A modded original Xbox is the best media streamer / set top box / emulation / open source gaming machine you can get. Well, an actual HTPC does have a few benefits, but it's also several times more expensive. I've been using Xboxes as media centers for five or six years, and I have yet to find anything which offers the same level of simplicity and functionality.

Oh, and it plays Xbox games.

 

[Svartalf]

If you want an open source console, just use a Linux PC.

There really isn't any challenge there.

Actually, there's a bit of a challenge there.

A Linux PC, as you put it, is an X86 machine. To make a credible machine in the same class (and one quiet enough to count as a comparison), you're going to shell out 500-800 dollars US currently. Compare this to the Beagleboard weighing in at $150.

Getting it to a stage that it's armor-plated and usable as a console isn't the same thing as slapping together a batch of off-the-shelf components and calling it a "console".

 

[lulzfish]

If you want an open source console, just use a Linux PC.

There really isn't any challenge there.

Actually, there's a bit of a challenge there.

A Linux PC, as you put it, is an X86 machine. To make a credible machine in the same class (and one quiet enough to count as a comparison), you're going to shell out 500-800 dollars US currently. Compare this to the Beagleboard weighing in at $150.

Getting it to a stage that it's armor-plated and usable as a console isn't the same thing as slapping together a batch of off-the-shelf components and calling it a "console".


I actually went to Newegg and managed to do exactly that for around $250. But its only video output was VGA, so it would have only worked for the select chosen few of us who have TV / monitor combos. So I decided not to post it.

Edit: It was also hilariously underpowered, but the video was probably the worst problem. I don't think a lot of people have televisions with VGA-in.

 

[Yamara]

My favorite benefit of a console is that I don't have to worry about whether my system has enough RAM or a good enough video card to play something. If the game is branded for that console, it runs. I won't need to upgrade. I won't have to play with settings to optimize speed of play. It will "just work," because my Console X has the same hardware as everyone elses' Console X. I could see the allure of a Linux-based console that didn't require the user to muck about to make sure games would run.

However, I have to agree with the nay-sayers, in that I don't think it would garner a big market. There are enough cheap alternatives for Linux fans to build a gaming system themselves.

 

[Hotcooler]

Chip - I actually use Media Portal on my HTPC since it has an UDP IPTV streaming solution and some Russian language EPG and IMDB like info grabbers. And really happy with that. And pc to play all the 1080p goodness costed me aroud 250usd. Wich I think is quite good.

 

[lulzfish]

Yeah, that's the problem with the idea - All games for the console will work on all consoles, but all the games [Literally less than a dozen, perhaps] will probably just be ports of stuff that already runs on Linux.

Or emulators, I suppose. I'm not personally a huge fan of emus, most games that are old enough to play are not worth playing.

Game consoles are made by their games.

 

[Svartalf]

True, you would want something low-power and cheap. But I'm still not sure how well it would sell since you could buy the parts for such a thing online, and it doesn't do a lot more than the PCs most people already own.

Heh... Stop thinking of a gaming machine as being a PC (even though it IS one...).

Studios and publishers LIKE consistent targets. A Windows PC isn't one of those. A Mac sort of is, sort of isn't. A Linux PC is only slightly better than a Windows PC in that it's more stable when you have the right hardware- and is at least slightly more resilliant to attack from outside. An embedded system is appealing to the studios, no matter what form that takes. Done right, the studios win, the publishers win, and the end-users win. If you do a FOSS console with something like the Beagleboard as it's core, you bring a bit of that consistency that they're looking for. If you have a rigorously vetted Linux distribution, you bring most of the rest of it to the table.

Just because you use a Linux PC, doesn't magically make it a "console" or an appealing target for a studio or publisher.

Yeah, that's the problem with the idea - All games for the console will work on all consoles, but all the games [Literally less than a dozen, perhaps] will probably just be ports of stuff that already runs on Linux.

Heh... Considering that I've already got most of that half dozen in progres... (No, seriously, I do...including new stuff, not "just ports of stuff that already runs on Linux"...)

 

[marko]

I need to get my modded xbox out again and start playing around with it. Not sure what the community is like now as I moved on once the 360 came out.

 

[Svartalf]

I actually went to Newegg and managed to do exactly that for around $250. But its only video output was VGA, so it would have only worked for the select chosen few of us who have TV / monitor combos. So I decided not to post it.

Edit: It was also hilariously underpowered, but the video was probably the worst problem. I don't think a lot of people have televisions with VGA-in.

That doesn't fit the bill, now does it? If it doesn't have HDMI/DVI/Component/Composite(maybe...) or somesuch like it, it's NOT the same thing. Most of the relevant stuff now does HDMI/Component with a Composite/S-Video fallback. Most TVs do those, not VGA out. Some do DVI and DVI will do the video pieces of the puzzle and most sets have an analog/digital audio feed in for that purpose.

Most of the configurations you care to mention that fill this bill happen to cost $150-250 for a motherboard without RAM and CPU. I know, I've priced them in recent times to do an upgrade on my HTPC. Something else you may not know- I've held down the role of CTO for a company that did set-top box software over the years, I've kept my hand in that pie even though that business doesn't do that anymore. It's not cheap doing what we're doing here or what Beagle's been doing. Most of the time a device of this class would set you back $400+ alone. Some of those would require you to ADD RAM, etc. after that expenditure.

 

[lulzfish]

"I've already got most of that half dozen in progres... (No, seriously, I do...including new stuff, not "just ports of stuff that already runs on Linux"...) "

I didn't quite understand this. What are you working on?

"If it doesn't have HDMI/DVI/Component/Composite(maybe...) or somesuch like it, it's NOT the same thing."

Good point, that's why I ended up not posting it.

According to the Wikipedia, the BeagleBoard does support HDMI out [I hadn't paid enough attention to know this]
And it's only $150.

So that's what this thread was about.. It sounds interesting.

 

[Svartalf]

I didn't quite understand this. What are you working on?

Soul Ride
Caster
Ballistics
Bandits: Phoenix Rising
Europa Universalis 2 and subsequent titles using that engine (Maybe...NDA's have been signed, waiting to hear back from Paradox Interactive...)

There's other stuff possible if these projects get done quick enough (I'm fighting with SDL 1.3 and proper ES support which was done enough for the iPhone, but not well enough for our purposes...yet...)- some things from LGP's back and current catalog, some things from other places, indie and otherwise.


QUOTE

According to the Wikipedia, the BeagleBoard does support HDMI out [I hadn't paid enough attention to know this]



Yep. And the next rev (soon to be out...) will support the same RAM/NAND configuration we have- it'll be a desktop/console version of the Pandora for all intents and purposes.

QUOTE

And it's only $150.



Yep. Part of the extra expense in the Pandora is the controller nubs, the LCD, battery, etc. It raises the price up a bit.

QUOTE

So that's what this thread was about.. It sounds interesting.



Yeah. It makes for a compelling story at the low-to-mid end play for console titles- espeically for Indie studios and developers. Sony, MIcrosoft, and Nintendo only provide HARDWARE support. If something's borked on the title, they don't go call them- they call the publisher of the title for help. What makes the consoles compelling is DRM after a fashion and a consistent platform target. The DRM isn't going to float much (but then it doesn't do much for them and they need to be educated about that aspect of things), but a FOSS console has a lot to offer to them after all. A consistent target platform to code for without those royalties... Other than a distinct lack of DRM, what's there not to like?

 

[thoughtcriminal]

I would be all for a homebrew console. Make it a more powerful than the pandora, to the point where it could (theoretically) run dreamcast games smoothly, and maybe ps2 and xbox. Give me space for a hard drive (or 2)(either internal or eSata), support for hdmi and at least 720p resolution, and I would buy it in a heartbeat

 

[WizardStan]

I would be all for a homebrew console. Make it a more powerful than the pandora, to the point where it could (theoretically) run dreamcast games smoothly, and maybe ps2 and xbox. Give me space for a hard drive (or 2)(either internal or eSata), support for hdmi and at least 720p resolution, and I would buy it in a heartbeat
Wow! Just think. With such a powerful console, you could play PS2, XBox, and YES! Even Dreamcast games right on your very own TV!
Oh... wait...
</sarcasm>
You know you could probably pick up all three of those consoles off ebay for less than what an open source console powerful enough to emulate them would cost, right? There's no need to build a complex system to emulate them when you can just buy the system themselves and use them for the purpose they were intended.