Community Paradigm Shift

[A_SN]

The void of pc hardware disparity is rather wide, deep and cruel.

Besides the fact that all gamepads are well recognised all in the same way by SDL and that it's easy to handle this problem, PC hardware disparity is not a problem because all you need is a PC that can run what the Pandora can run, which is 100% of all PCs sold within the last ~7 years.

Way to see issues where there really aren't any no matter how you twist it.

 

[fishybawb]

The Pandora will have a gamepad, keyboard and touchscreen. Analogous, no?

Gamepad is an external device. Are all pandora's worshipers that clever?


Gamepad = d-pad/analog + buttons. I'm not a worshipper, but I'm at least clever. In comparison to some

 

[OrR]

Also very good: You can give out the PC version for free and charge for the Pandora version.

Well, kind of a good idea but I see one problem with it: It encourages a user to get a handheld PC instead of a Pandora, for example EEE, XO or one of those small WinXP things popping up everywhere. Thus a classic demo/shareware model would probably be the better choice and not that much effort. It would also enable a game to become financially successful beyond the Pandora userbase from which the Pandora port would profit as well.

I like the idea. Cross platform development can only benefit everyone if it's not too much work for the developer. It shouldn't be if it's planned from the beginning... Linux on PC needs more games, too. And while we are add it, I'd love to see the games on other handheld Linux
gadgets, too, if it makes sense with the available input possibilities and hardware capabilities. (Openmoko!)

 

[A_SN]

I like the idea. Cross platform development can only benefit everyone if it's not too much work for the developer. It shouldn't be if it's planned from the beginning... Linux on PC needs more games, too. And while we are add it, I'd love to see the games on other handheld Linux
gadgets, too, if it makes sense with the available input possibilities and hardware capabilities. (Openmoko!)

Well I think the good thing about my idea is that it kind of centralises and thus organises homebrew development, and by that I think that basically we'll have game creators who won't go out of their way too much and around them in the community a bunch of enthusiasts dedicated to porting what they can to various platforms. That would be great if it could work like this, like having your game ported to the iPhone or the PS2 without even having to do anything particular about it.

I haven't stressed it yet but I think it would be better too if people made sure their game can run at various resolutions. That's not an essential thing and that's not always practical at all, but it would be a plus I guess. I think hard coding screen resolution-related constants is especially bad.

 

[Retroid]

Things had better keep being released on the GP2X.

~£100 for a hobbyist mobile platform, yes. >£200 for the Pandora, no way.

 

[Dutch_Cap]

Please don't use the words "Paradigm Shift" again. But otherwise, good idea.

 

[Prophet]

This idea is nice, HOWEVER...

It would be ideal for Pandora programs to take maximum benefit of the unique hardware design whenever possible. If a PC port is also done, the Pandora version should be the primary target. An example would be use of the touch screen, or optimization for the relatively (compared to PC's) slow CPU, limited RAM and small screen.

In other words, it would be unfortunate to see PC apps simply being shoe-horned into the Pandora. If it's Pandora programs being cross compiled and adapted to also work on PC, OK. But hopefully some good percentage of devs will be looking at the Pandora as a unique piece of hardware and try to exploit it to its limits. Not just as a small computer that can run PC apps.

 

[Orkie]

Things had better keep being released on the GP2X.

Had better, eh? Or what?

 

[A_SN]

If it's Pandora programs being cross compiled and adapted to also work on PC, OK.

Yeah you know, that's how it already works. I mean, we make apps for the GP2X, but we almost all have fully featured PC builds of them. It's just that GP2X games translate poorly into PC games, the main reason being that it's hard to make a game for a 320x240 screen that works well on a much larger screen, without using vector graphics or simple scaling.

In a way my suggestion will change little to how devs make games, and the Pandora being the only constraint and lowest common denominator (having less power/resources than any modern PC), we will necessarily primarily think of making them as good as possible for the Pandora. And 800x480 is at last a decent resolution for PC gaming.

Things had better keep being released on the GP2X.

Had better, eh? Or what?

Or else!

 

[Xmas]

The delta from OpenGL ES 2.0 to OpenGL 2.0 is fairly painless as one is largely a subset of the other as long as you don't use the Vector data type (which is an ES extension...). Going the other way might be more painful (Heh... MY problem with the titles I plan on porting over... ) but it's something that is certainly doable.

The "Vector" data type? OES_vertex_half_float is the only thing I know that seems close to what you describe.

Apart from extensions, the few other things in ES2.0 that are not a subset of OpenGL 2.0 are:
- framebuffer objects (but it's a widely supported extension on desktop)
- precision modifiers and a few minor quirks in GLSL ES (which can be #ifdef'd)
- binary shader support
- gl_PointCoord (added in OpenGL 2.1/GLSL 1.20)
- FIXED vertex data type (not recommended anyway)
- Vertex attribute 0 doesn't need to be active

 

[Sphinxter]

That is exactly the problem I refer to. You don't know if they have a gamepad, gravis mark VI, WTF, could be literally *anything* so to make a decent pc game you will have to code for *everything* or settle for some in between that's sure to disappoint most all of them.
So, if I, and I don't, assume for arguments sake that those fixes would take care of the controller and the aspect, (providing our audience is farsighted and not real picky), take a look at the rest of the machine and count the possible variables. The void of pc hardware disparity is rather wide, deep and cruel.

Gamepad or keyboard/mouse are the generally accepted PC control schemes. The Pandora will have a gamepad, keyboard and touchscreen. Analogous, no?

The hardware disparity argument is moot, seeing as we're talking about homebrew here. Well, the rest of us are. If you're not, please refer to the original post. The average homebrew game does not (and will not on the Pandora) "hit the hardware", instead relying on cross platform libraries.


Missing the point by several km, some lessons just have to be learned the hard way.

If it's Pandora programs being cross compiled and adapted to also work on PC, OK.

Yeah you know, that's how it already works. I mean, we make apps for the GP2X, but we almost all have fully featured PC builds of them. It's just that GP2X games translate poorly into PC games, the main reason being that it's hard to make a game for a 320x240 screen that works well on a much larger screen, without using vector graphics or simple scaling.

In a way my suggestion will change little to how devs make games, and the Pandora being the only constraint and lowest common denominator (having less power/resources than any modern PC), we will necessarily primarily think of making them as good as possible for the Pandora. And 800x480 is at last a decent resolution for PC gaming.

Things had better keep being released on the GP2X.

Had better, eh? Or what?

Or else!


If that's the only thing holding you back then maybe it's more likely you are writing them wrong. It took me a little over 4 hours and a perl script to convert a 320x240 cowsuckers into a running 800x480 version. Segregating your data and display logic pays well.

 

[A_SN]

If that's the only thing holding you back then maybe it's more likely you are writing them wrong. It took me a little over 4 hours and a perl script to convert a 320x240 cowsuckers into a running 800x480 version. Segregating your data and display logic pays well.

Duh, well all games aren't as simple as your Cowsuckers. And in some others like one of mine it's all about changing two #defines.

 

[Game_over]

......more to add on to the subject of a paradigm shift. looking at this community, and being around it since GP32 we do have our fair share of mainstays. I took on multiple name before finally settling with Game_Over over the time (not that that matters), I have noticed that we haven't really dramatically evolve since then in terms of the content that is provided and the people who provide it.

For Example:
System launches>> Devs Ports games they already done>> Some slightly new content is created>> Bugs/Hardware Problem>> A drop in number of content created>> Someone decides to leave>> Someone creates a thread about the lack of content and how we can turn it around>> thread ends>> Towards the end of the System's lifecycle- A slew of new content is created>> New System launches>> the process starts all over again give or take some details.

Granted this is pretty much normal and acceptable.

I think what I'm getting at is that for more new content, there needs to be more new people to provide it, which is certainly going to happen this time 'round; Given the fact that once again we are pretty much on an even playing field, and more importantly the systems power and flexibility, there is going to be some new creativity from devs who probably never own a Gamepark(Holdings) system, if the initial end user batch gets into capable/motivated hands.

- I'll edit this or elaborate later I'm sleepy.

 

[Don Miguel]

Besides, that would be a better incentive for making homebrew games, and mostly multiplayer games! It's more interesting to make games when you have a much larger audience, and you don't ever want to make a multiplayer game exclusively for a platform that has 10,000 active owners, it's much more interesting if you can reach out to both these console owners and PC gamers. Instead of being just another platform on which people play emulators, it will create a better incentive for homebrew gaming creation, by centering the community not just on a machine, but on a machine AND cross-platform homebrew gaming.

that's rather an old idea.

for my taste, Pandora is too expensive
and it doesn't have INTERNATIONAL support
for non LATINIC alphabet users.

I'm glad to know there's such a console. But...

800x640 whatever
is too small for any FULLSCREEN PC game experience i'd like

but for a "windowed" one it's ok.

the same's for GP2x ports.

smartasses double/triple the res and use some filters
just like in the emulators...

 

[nubie]

I completely agree, I will now port all of my software to the PC and then to the Pandora [/sarcasm]

The homebrew guys don't need to be told what to do, the GP2X is cheap and available and powerful enough for homebrew (I've got a nearly mint MK2 for $100, anyone who wants it can PM me and they can have it.)

Most of the emulators and bigger homebrew was ported From the PC, so don't be silly, it would be easier to do a Mashup of the PC and 2X versions for the Pandy.

I like the thinking, but the homebrew guys are already devving on a PC, I am sure they will still be devving on a PC when the pandy comes out (what if there are wacky people devving for the GP2X ON the pandora? Wouldn't the Irony be almost too much?)

 

[Exophase]

I completely agree, I will now port all of my software to the PC and then to the Pandora [/sarcasm]

The homebrew guys don't need to be told what to do, the GP2X is cheap and available and powerful enough for homebrew (I've got a nearly mint MK2 for $100, anyone who wants it can PM me and they can have it.)

Most of the emulators and bigger homebrew was ported From the PC, so don't be silly, it would be easier to do a Mashup of the PC and 2X versions for the Pandy.

I like the thinking, but the homebrew guys are already devving on a PC, I am sure they will still be devving on a PC when the pandy comes out (what if there are wacky people devving for the GP2X ON the pandora? Wouldn't the Irony be almost too much?)

So for those pieces of software that are already just ports this message obviously doesn't apply. Even if that ends up being 99 out of 100 things that still isn't the point. Maybe it's optimistic to expect any new software at all, but that's what everyone's talking about around here as it is.

And of course they'll still be developing on PC. That's all the more reason why they should release their PC versions. No where in this thread has anyone advocated developing on a Pandora.

I think a lot of people are missing what A_SN is saying *_* It's not even telling homebrew devs what to do, it's saying that they should be encouraged to do this (and one thing that would help is offering a place where PC builds can be downloaded)

 

[fishybawb]

That is exactly the problem I refer to. You don't know if they have a gamepad, gravis mark VI, WTF, could be literally *anything* so to make a decent pc game you will have to code for *everything* or settle for some in between that's sure to disappoint most all of them.
So, if I, and I don't, assume for arguments sake that those fixes would take care of the controller and the aspect, (providing our audience is farsighted and not real picky), take a look at the rest of the machine and count the possible variables. The void of pc hardware disparity is rather wide, deep and cruel.

Gamepad or keyboard/mouse are the generally accepted PC control schemes. The Pandora will have a gamepad, keyboard and touchscreen. Analogous, no?

The hardware disparity argument is moot, seeing as we're talking about homebrew here. Well, the rest of us are. If you're not, please refer to the original post. The average homebrew game does not (and will not on the Pandora) "hit the hardware", instead relying on cross platform libraries.


Missing the point by several km, some lessons just have to be learned the hard way.


Well if you're willing to enlighten me, that'd be great. Always willing to learn

 

[randomhack]

I completely agree, I will now port all of my software to the PC and then to the Pandora [/sarcasm]

The homebrew guys don't need to be told what to do, the GP2X is cheap and available and powerful enough for homebrew (I've got a nearly mint MK2 for $100, anyone who wants it can PM me and they can have it.)

Most of the emulators and bigger homebrew was ported From the PC, so don't be silly, it would be easier to do a Mashup of the PC and 2X versions for the Pandy.

I like the thinking, but the homebrew guys are already devving on a PC, I am sure they will still be devving on a PC when the pandy comes out (what if there are wacky people devving for the GP2X ON the pandora? Wouldn't the Irony be almost too much?)

So for those pieces of software that are already just ports this message obviously doesn't apply. Even if that ends up being 99 out of 100 things that still isn't the point. Maybe it's optimistic to expect any new software at all, but that's what everyone's talking about around here as it is.

And of course they'll still be developing on PC. That's all the more reason why they should release their PC versions. No where in this thread has anyone advocated developing on a Pandora.

I think a lot of people are missing what A_SN is saying *_* It's not even telling homebrew devs what to do, it's saying that they should be encouraged to do this (and one thing that would help is offering a place where PC builds can be downloaded)


I agree. It can be started in a simple way. For example, when people put a wiki page up, they should include a link to the PC port, link to GP2x port and link to Pandora port depending on which ones are available. Second, it will also be nice if people work on lets stay somewhat standard build tools. So if anybody is using a particular build method to do multi-platform work, then it will be nice if they can share the tools. For example, even simple instructions on how to structure your makefile or how to structure your code from the more experienced devs etc will be good. Automated packaging tools will be even better. For example, build tools that can package your program up for Ubuntu, Windows, GP2x and Pandora provided you follow some particular makefile structure and provided the build succeeds will be really nice. Also work on a good cross-platform 3d engine is also necessary and is already being discussed in a separate thread.

Cross platform is not always feasible. So of course its upto the individual dev finally. But encouragement and sharing of information and tools will be great.

 

[JakeK]

I dont understand, if the Pandora is about homebrew why would the homebrew be ported to the PC? It is like shooting yourself in the foot, but replacing the pistol with a nuclear bomb.

 

[A_SN]

I agree. It can be started in a simple way. For example, when people put a wiki page up, they should include a link to the PC port, link to GP2x port and link to Pandora port depending on which ones are available. Second, it will also be nice if people work on lets stay somewhat standard build tools. So if anybody is using a particular build method to do multi-platform work, then it will be nice if they can share the tools. For example, even simple instructions on how to structure your makefile or how to structure your code from the more experienced devs etc will be good. Automated packaging tools will be even better. For example, build tools that can package your program up for Ubuntu, Windows, GP2x and Pandora provided you follow some particular makefile structure and provided the build succeeds will be really nice. Also work on a good cross-platform 3d engine is also necessary and is already being discussed in a separate thread.

Cross platform is not always feasible. So of course its upto the individual dev finally. But encouragement and sharing of information and tools will be great.

Yes, that's quite the spirit of the idea! But as an extension of my idea, there's also the hope that we'll take homebrew to the next level by scaling up the community an order of magnitude and instead of being the jack of all trades and do everything you have to (like cross-platform stuff) some people will be dedicated to doing that for you or at least helping you tremendously. That kind of help could be about not just porting but also why not making sure the game runs as nicely on other PC resolutions..