Ce Testing

[amf66]

QUOTE
Eh, I'll be happy if they sell over 9000.


I'll be happy just when I get mine

 

[renegadechic]

I support the Pandora team 100%, but I have to disagree with you on this comparison. Your comment about Sony selling the console at a loss makes it seem like it happens to all the big companies, where in fact, that's just Sony's marketing strategy. They sell their consoles at a loss so that they can reap the benefit by charging the developers massive licensing fees. They did it with the PSP, too. Nintendo (and Sega back when they sold consoles) doesn't charge as much for licensing fees, so they need to sell their consoles more at face value. Notice that Nintendo is making a massive profit off of the Wii, and has always made large profit off of their consoles. I don't really know about Microsoft, but I'm pretty sure they don't bombard the developers with heavy licensing fees.

-God Ginrai

i'll admit to being no expert on this... though i may be cautiously Brass Eye about this (theres no evidence for it, but its scientific fact ), that the way they seem to cut the price of the xbox360 must mean that they are focusing their profits outside of the console itself at least (on the games and subscriptions). i wasn't so aware of the costs passed to the developers though which i think is a pretty massive shame.

as an aside it is quite interesting seeing the different business models going on. the wii one really showed how a bit of Apple style glitz and a new way of appealling to a gaming audience can enable you to pretty much rehash your previously underrated console and still make a success of it. i still love my gamecube

 

[Chip]

it is easy to compare to bigger companies like sony or nintendo, but then the pandora project is actually even more extraordinary than them in some ways because they are trying to break even purely on the console. apparently the PS3 makes a net loss with every unit sold and they make it back with the extra money from games but there isnt that kind of situation with the pandora.
Notice that Nintendo is making a massive profit off of the Wii, and has always made large profit off of their consoles. I don't really know about Microsoft, but I'm pretty sure they don't bombard the developers with heavy licensing fees.RenegadeChic's point still stands. Nintendo may make a few dollars per Wii vs the cost of manufacturing them, but they vast majority of their money comes from licensing. They couldn't survive otherwise. Sure, in Nintendo's case, they pay for manufacturing costs with each sale, but what about the hundreds of millions worth of development and advertising costs? They spent $200 million on marketing the Wii just in the first year it was released. It probably cost twice that to develop the system in the first place. Add to that the overhead of a company with almost 4k employees and several regional headquarters around the world and they'd go broke if it weren't for all the licensing dollars rolling in. Sure, the Wii division posts significant profits every quarter, but what are chances that the project as a whole has broken even yet?

And that's where the Pandora actually has a leg up. Without the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of development debt, the project as a whole will (hopefully) be in the black by the end of the 2nd batch. Sure, if we had that kind of money to work with it probably would have been finished and shipped last summer. But if the project had required that kind of money, it never would have happened at all. The "poor-man's hardware development" approach has meant that we haven't been able to buy our way out of delays, but it is the only way that a project like this could have happened. The sort of cash that allows you to throw money at problems until they go away always comes with investors and committees, and investors and committees only green-light things like the PSP and DS which have been focus-group tested into the ground and have back end profits projected out until the heat death of the universe.

The Pandora is almost unique as a consumer electronics device these days. It is practically an artisan device. It's being made on a very small scale by a handful of people for almost no money. When was the last time you bought a piece of electronics kit like that? When was the last time you bought anything like that? It's almost like having custom furniture built as opposed to buying something at Ikea. Yeah, it's going to have minor imperfections and you can't just waltz down to the store and buy it and be done, but it's got quality and character that flatpack furniture just doesn't. An actual person worked hard to make it. It's got a certain spirit. It's...

...

What were we talking about again?

 

[lulzfish]

I think it's really strange that something as well-designed as the Pandora had to come from a small development team basically working as volunteers.

Obviously the corporations aren't innovating very hard anymore, and it's probably because most customers are too stupid to demand anything that's actually better.

 

[Tom`]

Obviously the corporations aren't innovating very hard anymore, and it's probably because most customers are too stupid to demand anything that's actually better.

Well... that is part of it, but the real problem is that it takes such a huge amount of money and time for most systems, when you consider design, development, marketing, and everything else - hundreds of millions to billions of dollars are being spent - that they are incredibly risk-averse. As Chip mentioned, it has to be approved by a zillion people and departments, all with different agendas, and that is rarely conducive to innovation.

 

[gaterooze]

What's doubly incredible is how relatively cheap the Pandora is being sold. Usually "artisan" creations are double the mass-market equivalents, but Pandora is smashing value in comparison.

 

[EvilDragon]

EvilDragon, im still fairly new to this project; if you aren't a hardware dev, what do you do for the project? A software dev? Just curious, i'm not sure.

Well, that's a hard thing to answer... I'm doing a lot.

For example, I did those renderings from the case, designed the basic case design (which has been enhanced A LOT by DaveC who did the real casedesign ) as well as the HD videos you can see on YouTube.
I run the servers where everything is being done (web, git, software archive etc.)
I threw in a lot of ideas (the PXML idea was my idea, the devs did enhance it in a great way and it's really cool to see what they made of it... it works exactly like I dreamed it would. You put a game on the card, put that card in and WHOOSH, it appears in the menu in the right category).
I'm talking a lot with craig, Fatih, Michael as well as with the devs in IRC so I'm basically also a communication between hard- and software dev a bit...
I try to cover everything that happens in the blog.
I do some other stuff (like battery label design, creating the keyboard layout data files for the mould company, etc.)
And I'm doing the whole marketing, selling, etc. in Germany

So while it's really hard to say what my real job in this game is... well, a bit of everything.
Mostly a bit of marketing, keeping the community happy, presenting, testing, make sure the Pandora is easily usable for everybody...

 

[RajTakhar]

ED and the rest of the Open Pandora team

We all appreciate your efforts !!

Even if people like MrBlais make such daft comments

 

[Monk]

I don't know if this is directed at my assumption that the team was recieving a profit from this; if so, I apologize. I just figured after all the work they had done they were at least going to be compensated for their efforts. I was just wondering.

Not by me - I have a tendency to quote or mention who I am speaking to if it's a direct response to one person. My musings have mostly been more general, as in this thread, and mostly for my own enlightenment/gratification than anyone else (though if I help to shed light any further afield than myself that's just brilliant).

Ta

 

[MrBlais]

EvilDragon, im still fairly new to this project; if you aren't a hardware dev, what do you do for the project? A software dev? Just curious, i'm not sure.

Well, that's a hard thing to answer... I'm doing a lot.

For example, I did those renderings from the case, designed the basic case design (which has been enhanced A LOT by DaveC who did the real casedesign ) as well as the HD videos you can see on YouTube.
I run the servers where everything is being done (web, git, software archive etc.)
I threw in a lot of ideas (the PXML idea was my idea, the devs did enhance it in a great way and it's really cool to see what they made of it... it works exactly like I dreamed it would. You put a game on the card, put that card in and WHOOSH, it appears in the menu in the right category).
I'm talking a lot with craig, Fatih, Michael as well as with the devs in IRC so I'm basically also a communication between hard- and software dev a bit...
I try to cover everything that happens in the blog.
I do some other stuff (like battery label design, creating the keyboard layout data files for the mould company, etc.)
And I'm doing the whole marketing, selling, etc. in Germany

So while it's really hard to say what my real job in this game is... well, a bit of everything.
Mostly a bit of marketing, keeping the community happy, presenting, testing, make sure the Pandora is easily usable for everybody...


Nice work! I've seen all your videos and you're doing a fine job of explaining the Pandora's tech as well as keeping the wild animals in this forum at bay.

 

[torpor]

QUOTE

I threw in a lot of ideas (the PXML idea was my idea, the devs did enhance it in a great way and it's really cool to see what they made of it... it works exactly like I dreamed it would. You put a game on the card, put that card in and WHOOSH, it appears in the menu in the right category).



BTW, I think PXML is a 'nice' idea, but you've implemented it wrong. It shouldn't be a separate .pxml file that has to be included on the disk - it should, instead, be output by the program when you pass it the '--output-pxml' command line option. This, then, gets parsed by the shell, and off we go.

Maybe something to consider for pxml2.0. Its just that I think having extra files to be copied around is dirty - a cleaner approach would be if the app is run with the special command line, told to output its 'PXML specs' and this is then used by the shell .. get the picture?

 

[Chip]

BTW, I think PXML is a 'nice' idea, but you've implemented it wrong. It shouldn't be a separate .pxml file that has to be included on the disk - it should, instead, be output by the program when you pass it the '--output-pxml' command line option. This, then, gets parsed by the shell, and off we go.
There are two problems with your post.

The first is that having to compile a configuration file into the binary is pure madness. It's a hell of a lot more work than typing up a PXML text file, could never be modified by the user, and can only be done by the actual programmer (or somebody with the source, proper build environment, and knoweledge of the language used). Many wouldn't bother at all, and the usefulness of the PXML file would be lost. A separate PXML file can be created or modified by anybody with a text editor.

The second is that Pandora programs are already meant to be distributed as a single file. A .pnd file is just a zip file containing everything the program needs to run and the PXML file. The way the OS is set up, you drop a .pnd on an SD card (anywhere), the system finds it on bootup or card insertion, parses the PXML file, and adds it to the proper program category. To uninstall a program, simply delete the .pnd file. There will probably be a graphical package manager at some point also, but this system is already up and working and cannot be any simpler.

 

[dflemstr]

To clarify a few things: a PND is an ISO image with the pxml appended to it. This allows for CRAZY FAST reading of the config, especially compared to having to load a program, execute it, wait for output etc. just to get the config.

And think of the security issues with having an executable file execute (with the possibility of doing anything) whenever a launcher app needed an icon.

This is the easiest solution, especially since you can make a writer for the format within 5 minutes (if you have an XML-integrated language like C# or Scala to work with).
Actually, you can tell me to make one, and I will return within 5 minutes with one

 

[Pleng]

We can't just throw the current Pandora at the CE test (which only takes a few days), due to the huge costs involved (maybe 12,000 euro) we have to make sure it's right first time, which is something Ed is working on right now.

You know, Craig, I honestly don't think many people would have minded if they'd been told this a week ago. It makes sense to wait for a complete and final case before sending it to be CE tested. However Chip repeatedly said that the case was going for CE testing 'as is'. It's not the first time either that an 'official' spokesperson has given out information that is just plainly wrong.

 

[Chip]

However Chip repeatedly said that the case was going for CE testing 'as is'. It's not the first time either that an 'official' spokesperson has given out information that is just plainly wrong.
It was accurate when I was given the information. Sometimes plans change and I don't get the memo.

 

[conso]

However Chip repeatedly said that the case was going for CE testing 'as is'. It's not the first time either that an 'official' spokesperson has given out information that is just plainly wrong.
It was accurate when I was given the information. Sometimes plans change and I don't get the memo.

you sure have an unpleasant job.

 

[gruso]

"I'd love my job, if it weren't for the customers."

 

[Poem58]

I like so many others here had come up with an idea like this many years ago (mine didn't have PC usage just the hardware for emulation purposes) and the reason I didn't do something like this was simple. I didn't have a clue how to design, fund or even sell such a device. Nor could I afford the risk. I consider myself an impatient person when it comes to something like wanting my new toy so bad...but I want to say how thankful I am that Craig and Co. decided to take the risk and figure out how to get this done...I understand that my payment is an investment into the project that will have a return of future Pandora's and a strong community that will supply me with many useful things to do with my dream gadget...I hate the word "delay"..I hate the fact that we don't know exactly the day it will show up at our door...but I love the fact that it will and am so happy knowing eventually I will hold this baby. I totally understand why things are the way they are and are fine with it..I hope it wraps up soon though (by beginning of summer anyway) but will wait if need be...I'm not backing out! Thanks guys for your work on the project and putting so much time in despite your real life jobs. I hope this turns out to create plenty of profit, allows you to make it your day job and then in the future makes Pandora 2 and 3 and 4...etc... to be a much less demanding and much more fun experience....I frankly would not have been able to handle this much and am glad you are doing it for me!
I have a feeling when we are all making vids and blogs and posts about how cool our Panda is...there will be many more who will want one...and frankly I'm impressed nearly 4000 people found and ordered one already with virtually no advertisement at all! Shows how many people were looking for this and those who aren't looking (including a friend of mine) are waiting to see it cause they think they want it too (and not necessarily for game playing either...maybe Craig and Co might want to see if they can do a future case redesign without gaming controls for those who want it as PDA replacement only...could save some $$$ on parts to increase profit? might be a good Idea down the road to expand interest for sales once OS is fully fleshed out?)

Thanks again!

 

[Phawx]

You know, Craig, I honestly don't think many people would have minded if they'd been told this a week ago.

I don't bring this up to step on toes, but this was the point of my post. Critically examining the progress has shown crossed communications. Truthfully, I am afraid to highlight this for fear that I may dilute what "Pleng" has mentioned because of how I am viewed here.

I don't think any of us are up-in-arms that you want to wait to get the CE-testing just right before you commit to it. In fact, I think all of us support this method. These shorter delays, minimize the *long* delays.

Thank you for the info, Craig.

 

[EvilDragon]

BTW, I think PXML is a 'nice' idea, but you've implemented it wrong. It shouldn't be a separate .pxml file that has to be included on the disk - it should, instead, be output by the program when you pass it the '--output-pxml' command line option. This, then, gets parsed by the shell, and off we go.
There are two problems with your post.

Three, actually. The third one is that:
If you're using FAT32 as SD Card, you can't set an executable flag.
The Pandora executables don't have a .exe or similar extension - like in linux, they can be anything.

So if there's no way to mark those executables, the menu would have to try to run each file on the card with --output-pxml and check if there's output coming back... I don't wanna know how long this would take

Believe me, PXML works fine as is, we've got it working already

BTW: .pnd is just an option for the dev. You can also simply put all files extracted in a directory onto your SD Card However, .pnd is easier for quick deletion of the app