Business Plan sent to interested investors (2011 - 09 - 20)

[EvilDragon]

if I learnt something during the last years, it is that chinese companies take their time.

Oh yes, you can say that again. Setting a deadline well before the actual one is a must.

If they will accept one

The shoulder buttons shouldn't be an issue anymore. If the switch is properly placed on the PCB, the buttons work right away.

Yeah I know, I haven't heard many complaints about them lately. On that note, how is your RMA workload at the moment? I still have to return my unit because of its PTOD. I had delayed doing so since you mentioned being really busy at the time and I'm having a very hard time parting with my unit

Since I finished the business plan, I've got a bit more time and are catching up with the repairs.

 

[TheQuestForChaos]

Hello Everyone.


I have been lurking for a few days on the forum and doing research on alternatives to the Open Pandora on the side. And I would like to start off by saying, i don't have much more then your minimum target investment sum, but I would very much like to see the business plan and see if I can offer my financial confidence in evildragons vision.


A company that is forward thinking about providing quality hardware in a completely open source manner has been a long time coming.


Some issues I see in respects to marketability,


It would be good to see the unit reliably emulate close to 100% of all titles that the manufacturer suggests it can. And at full speed.


Perhaps some cash intensive programming awards could be arranged by the community that uses them...


It would be very important to take care of the tiny few manufacturing shortcomings before bringing an object like this to market.


Also for those who wonder if it is worth the wait/still worth the cash... consider these points,


If you compare it with a phone, even the best, you will effectively be paying around $500 for the phone, even if they say it is free. We all know they make their money back on the contract. Then you have to pay $30 or better to find a decent controller set up. The controller is just another thing in your pocket(I hate those "things"). And you still wouldn't have a decent keyboard. And you would be in a tough spot trying to play the game on the bus, train, etc.... Ok I can keep on this tangent for two pages so on to other things.


Where can you find a devise so powerful at graphics emulation for the price point? And then add all the hardware I/O? And the idea you have a real computer in your pocket? Nowhere right now.


UMPC? about $1000 for anything that can handle 3d, then in most cases a controller, in some cases a keyboard(most cases if you want a usable one)


None of the current portable emulators can handle the top end emulation, not to mention a poor UI with few opportunities to use the device as a tool.


Netbooks seem up to the task, but it still seems rather awkward to use with a controller most times you would want to use it. This is however the closest with fair emulation across the spectrum at the upper ends of the netbook price range, but not much savings and you are not fitting it in your pocket, unless you are waring cargo pants every day of your life.


I do worry about the future. The Pandora has been to long to market, someone is waiting in the weeds with the next newest greatest "Pandoralike" waiting to pounce on OPT's weary customers.


One last thing. This device, had it a little tougher build and waterproof construction could easily sell for $1000 or better to wilderness contractor companies, construction and contracting companies, and so many more. It would be their strongest tool, they spend a few thousand on specialized software made by a crack team of penguins and they are off to the races, faster and more efficient then the competition who has to lug around a laptop or worse yet bring measurements/information back on paper(gasp!).


I am very interested to find out how OPT plans to steer this project line for the near future. I think that the next 6 months are make or brake for the company. And I for one still believe that the Pandora is a marketable product... but for how long...

 

[BeefJerky]

All this phone versus Pandora stuff assumes availability. For many of us, it may as well be a horse versus unicorn. Sure, a unicorn might be cool but I can actually get a horse.

 

[Hoodoo]

#2, So you've never used a Droid then?


with my droid 1, i've NEVER experienced ANY stuttering of any kind, with any of the MANY games and emulators i've used.


sure, the touch screen is annoying to use, and the keyboard sucks for gaming, but then again, that's why there's apps that connect a wii-mote to the phone.

I used Droid (well Milestone) for a year. It's a great device indeed, but they have the bootloader encrypted so that you shouldn't be able to install custom ROMs. At the same time, they only released Android 2.1 for it, if I remember it correct. So if you want newer OS, you're supposed to buy a new phone. Neat, huh? Fortunately, enthusiasts got the vulnerable recoverer or what it is and adapted Cyanogenmod to work with it.


Software wise, I'm not very happy with Android. Four apps I like the most are the browser, fbreader, google maps and connectbot. These are (almost) perfect. All the rest... Well, tons of adware at Market. Tons of crappy Hello Word'ish stuff and tons of apps which are basically interfaces to tons of websites you have to register at, man, stuff like that wouldn't do it to the repos of Ubuntu Moronic Edition. No Perl. No Python. No normal shell I'm used to. Really strange filemanagers (each and every of them is a major PITA to use) although FileExpert is nice. Basically, I could do less with better device.

 

[ledow]

It would be good to see the unit reliably emulate close to 100% of all titles that the manufacturer suggests it can. And at full speed.


Perhaps some cash intensive programming awards could be arranged by the community that uses them...

To emulate things close to 100% at full speed isn't difficult - providing the code already exists. For a lot of the more "modern" consoles on the list, there's no such thing as a 100% emulator, especially at full speed (hell, there's nothing that can claim 100% SNES compatibility still, and I've been playing SNES emulators since the late 90's), and especially not with BOTH speed and compatibility, and not one that will run on a slow processor (take MAME as an example - most of its games CAN be run by other emulators on things as low as a 486 - some of the older emulators that you've never heard of did that for individual games - but to run them *accurately* can require more processor power than even the most powerful desktop has - it's always a trade-off, even on seemingly ancient games). It's not just a case of throwing people at the project - it's an incredibly skilled job which requires complete knowledge of an old, obsolete console (which, in some cases, doesn't even exist when we have the hardware around to take it apart) - including every tiny chip and quirk of each chip (75% of getting an accurate emulator is working out the things the console DOES do that it shouldn't), complete knowledge of a modern ARM instruction set, and a way to emulate one on the other in as efficient a manner as possible, down to assembly-level optimisations. You basically have to know every trick in the book that every programmer who ever wrote games for the system ever used over its entire life, down to the hardware level.


Although *sometimes* it can be a case of just recompiling an old emulator where someone has already done that (especially in the case of incredibly-low-requirements systems - have a look how "bodge-job" the NES is), it's almost always not the case. As soon as you get into anything that becomes a squeeze (e.g. N64 or PSX on a handheld console), you're really talking instruction-level knowledge of both systems and dynamic recompilers, etc.


More importantly however - where the hell would the money come from to offer this incentive (there was a "dev fund" years ago when the OP was first discussed and that amounted to a few thousand, I think - barely enough to compensate a single programmer of that ilk for a month of work, so we're back to "hobbyist" programmers doing it for fun anyway), who would take it up (do you have any idea of the money that you can earn by having the above skills and how much work it is?), and what the hell would they program/test on (given that there are only a handful of devices available at the moment, and that's not likely to even double this year, and the sort of work you're asking for is *incredibly* machine-specific). Hell, there isn't even an "OpenPandora" emulator/devkit to test on while you wait for it to appear, which is the usual practice for bigger consoles.


This is one of OP's greatest problems - there just aren't enough developers looking at the system. Sure, you can flood anything (even a device with only a few thousand units in the wild) with quick ports and dodgy homebrew but that's nowhere near making use of the features available. For a system which is entirely dependent on people writing code for it (i.e. over and above the firmware - is that actually paid work or if someone gets run over by a bus is it goodbye new firmware? - the only software is what people provide out of the goodness of their heart) and to do that they need a device to test it on at least. OP is reliant on a handful specialised people, with limited access to the hardware, writing almost the entire software library before it becomes worthwhile for others to buy it.

 

[EvilDragon]

The business plan includes costs for developing both OS and hardware in the near future, so this is also taken care of.

 

[valhalla]

(...) OP is reliant on a handful specialised people, with limited access to the hardware, writing almost the entire software library before it becomes worthwhile for others to buy it.

This is only true for people who consider the Pandora only worth buying for games, and the only relatively recent mainstream games worth playing, but this is just a sub-niche of the Pandora target.


Many (older) games can run even with a quick emulator port like the ones we have already, and for those the main advantage of Pandora instead of a phone or a netbook is the form factor. As an example, right now Pandora is already perfect for text adventures, that's a gaming niche that can be reached with zero software effort, and it's not the only one.

 

[fusion_power]

The business plan includes costs for developing both OS and hardware in the near future, so this is also taken care of.

I hope this leads into some more up-to-date Pandora Kernel and more polished Pandora OS, the Handheld would heavily benefit from this I'm sure.

 

[EvilDragon]

Just a quick update: Sent a printed copy of the Business Plan to notch today.


Hopefully, we'll get his support That would rock - and he would be the perfect partner in my opinion.


He knows what the Indie / Homebrew / OpenSource-Scene is all about and supports the community spirit.

 

[milkshake]

/me has fingers crossed.

 

[hedwards]

Just a quick update: Sent a printed copy of the Business Plan to notch today.


Hopefully, we'll get his support That would rock - and he would be the perfect partner in my opinion.


He knows what the Indie / Homebrew / OpenSource-Scene is all about and supports the community spirit.

So when can we expect the special Minecraft Edition Pandora?

 

[TheQuestForChaos]

All this phone versus Pandora stuff assumes availability. For many of us, it may as well be a horse versus unicorn. Sure, a unicorn might be cool but I can actually get a horse.

What a great analogy. First thing I read today. Thank you for the laugh. Maybe if we all start believing in unicorns the Pandoras will come faster.

 

[WizardStan]

So when can we expect the special Minecraft Edition Pandora?

I've been tweeting to Notch and Jeb_ about the possibilities of getting Minecraft running on the Pandora, but they've yet to respond.

 

[TheQuestForChaos]

So when can we expect the special Minecraft Edition Pandora?

I second this! Unless Dwarf Fortress is able to run on the Pandora. But I doubt it could.


As far as the software development rant by Hoodoo, Good rant! Well argued.


The responsibility IS to squarely placed upon the driven few by the whole of the community.


They should be able to charge $5-$10 for a well functioning emulator if their compensation is a bigger issue then their satisfaction on a job well done. For me, as a consumer, would be willing to pay small prices for such useful apps. Like the android market. Preferably without all the trash apps flooding the market. I figure the programmers should make a little scratch for the involved work they do. Donations would be great too, but I don't trust people to be all that generous.


My big argument with the emulators is to accomplish a device that will be marketable. The people that have these so far are computer nerds. Near endlessly patient and forgiving of their tech. Like me and my phone, problems almost every day, but the form factor and capability is worth it for me.


But I have had plenty of customers when I sold phones that would return the device the first time it had any little problem. Even a single hiccup. So I fear an unreasonable reprisal from the simple masses. A half baked OS and apps, on large release, I believe could seal the coffin. That is coming from my experience with selling electronics. I might be wrong, it is just what I have seen.


Not to mention that the pandora is marketed as a Emulation device, not a computer that could emulate(I think this market angle would sell well), or a phone that can emulate. I figure whatever it is marketed as should be NEAR flawless, all other features are icing on the cake.


Open Pandora just needs to make sure it happens and all will go well for them. I am glad to see they are already thinking ahead as far as a software development fund.


It would also be nice to see them starting to look ahead now, to the next Pandora, I am sure that if they kept all the good, fixed all the not so good, and made it a touch overpowered for the application they would hit the Pandora 2 out of the park. Especially if they could offer internal add-ons like gps, a bar code reader or other handy bits for an additional cost. I personally would also like to see a water proof or resistant ruggedized unit with rubberized grip surfaces. And I for one would be willing to pay the difference. But that is all in the future. We will see what they choose to do with today.

 

[TheQuestForChaos]

One more thing that came to mind, EvilDragon, can people invest on a cyclical system, so then quarterly or yearly when you are to send out dividends, the dividends could be rolled back into the investment? I live in the US and don't feel like dealing with the transfer costs. Not to mention that if the company takes off I would like to support it to the maximum of my ability. I guess the problem would be where the shares would come from that would be bought with the dividends. So it might not work with the investing infastructure that you have set already. But I would think some of us would be happy to get on board at the ground floor of this business.

 

[notaz]

They should be able to charge $5-$10 for a well functioning emulator if their compensation is a bigger issue then their satisfaction on a job well done. For me, as a consumer, would be willing to pay small prices for such useful apps. Like the android market. Preferably without all the trash apps flooding the market. I figure the programmers should make a little scratch for the involved work they do. Donations would be great too, but I don't trust people to be all that generous.

Be aware that zero emulators have been written especially for pandora, all of them are just ports. Charging money for them is unfair to the original authors, who did >95% of work in most cases. It annoys me to no end seeing open source emulators being sold on those Android/iPhone markets, if I had resources I'd do a free port for every one of them to put each of those people out of their miserable (but often rather profitable) "business".


However significant emulator portions like Ari64's dynamic recompiler have been written while having pandora in mind (at least it has been announced first in pandora section), but that's not pandora exclusive either.

 

[Caine]

I second this! Unless Dwarf Fortress is able to run on the Pandora. But I doubt it could.

Not locally, unless you have a LOT of patience. However, using something like this it might be possible.


Disclaimer: I haven't actually tried it.

Not to mention that the pandora is marketed as a Emulation device, not a computer that could emulate(I think this market angle would sell well), or a phone that can emulate. I figure whatever it is marketed as should be NEAR flawless, all other features are icing on the cake.

No, it's also marketed as a computer which can emulate. In fact, you could say (with some inaccuracy) that the userbase is split into exactly these two groups (gaming/emulation and portable micro computer).

It would also be nice to see them starting to look ahead now, to the next Pandora, I am sure that if they kept all the good, fixed all the not so good, and made it a touch overpowered for the application they would hit the Pandora 2 out of the park.

First priority is to get the first batch satisfied and the second batch started though.

Especially if they could offer internal add-ons like gps, a bar code reader or other handy bits for an additional cost.

There is no space for that. These can be added through bluetooth or USB.

I personally would also like to see a water proof or resistant ruggedized unit with rubberized grip surfaces. And I for one would be willing to pay the difference. But that is all in the future.

As you say, that would be a (very) long term matter.

 

[TheQuestForChaos]

Sorry, I get to dreaming sometimes...


Is there a place on the forum where we can see the marketing goodies that have been made for Pandora promotion?

 

[FatalErrorX]

ED whats the ETA of pre orders ? you said satuerday but that didnt happen.

 

[EvilDragon]

ED whats the ETA of pre orders ? you said satuerday but that didnt happen.

I planned it for Saturday, but I'm still thinking about how to word it correctly.


The site basically is setup and just needs to be opened, but I'm currently discussing some last details.