Bitcoins experience

[EvilDragon]

I'm currently evaluating whether it makes sense to include bitcoin payments into the DragonBox shop or not - however, I've never worked with bitcoins before so I'd like to ask here for ideas and experiences.


Basically, when offering bitcoins as payment, I somehow need to convert the EUR prices in Bitcoins and exchange my Bitcoins to EUR some time later.


How stable are the exchange rates?


Is that something that would work without having the risk of losing a lot of money?


What are your experiences?


Would you use Bitcoins to pay in my shop?

 

[ekianjo]

Never used bitcoins to buy anything but i have an account and know how to use it. I do not think it makes sense until bitcoin becomes easier to use, honestly speaking. It is still far from being beginner friendly.

 

[_wb_]

I never used bitcoins myself, but I've heard about it because one of my ex-colleagues is pretty active as a bitcoin dev.


It's an interesting idea, and it is potentially more stable than any of the "real" currencies. The exchange rates still seem to fluctuate quite a bit, so you probably want to adjust your prices in bitcoins (semi-)automatically and exchange the incoming bitcoins ASAP - unless you like to do some valuta speculation (the general trend seems to be that bitcoins become more valuable over time).

 

[Timstertoo]

And keep funds at an exchange at a bare minimum. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105818.0

 

[neko]

If you took bitcoin payments, I'd be much more likely to order. My bank has an annoying habit of denying international credit card charges, and charges $35 for an international wire transfer. I suppose paypal would be an option, but bitcoins would be easier.


If you're worried about exchange rates, you can use bit-pay.com. They'll take the current exchange rate (within 15 minutes or so) and give you USD.

 

[Tenka]

I would be more likely to buy more stuff if I could pay in bitcoins too. The value of bitcoins does change all the time, but I'm pretty sure that a few websites product prices have been taught to automatically change along with the bitcoin value. I am not 100% on that though so take it as a flake of pepper. Point is bitcoins are cool and aren't as likely to go away soon as something like USD.

 

[relliker]

A couple of bitcoin exchange sites have had trouble with hackers and bitcoin theft lately and if I'm not mistaken at least one of them has shut down operations while it investigates. I'd advise caution with bitcoin these days.


article link

 

[ekianjo]

A couple of bitcoin exchange sites have had trouble with hackers and bitcoin theft lately and if I'm not mistaken at least one of them has shut down operations while it investigates. I'd advise caution with bitcoin these days.

Yep there was a exchange site where 250 000 dollars worth of bitcoins was suddenly stolen, something like a week ago. And you get no insurance for things like that.

 

[WizardStan]

I thought one of the things about bitcoins was that they couldn't be stolen. They're unique, so even if someone did manage to steal them, wouldn't it be possible to just reclaim them by undoing the exchange?

 

[neko]

I thought one of the things about bitcoins was that they couldn't be stolen.

Sites with poor security get hacked. Bitcoins can be stolen just like bank account passwords can be stolen.

They're unique, so even if someone did manage to steal them, wouldn't it be possible to just reclaim them by undoing the exchange?

No, bitcoins are not a credit card. You can't just call and say you didn't buy something and have the charges reversed.

 

[the_marshal]

I thought one of the things about bitcoins was that they couldn't be stolen. They're unique, so even if someone did manage to steal them, wouldn't it be possible to just reclaim them by undoing the exchange?

Bitcoin can most definitely be stolen. They rely on cryptography and no central autority. The bitcoin site can explain the detail better than me.


Basically bitcoin wallet are protected by a key which should be kept private (and encrypted with a passphrase). The person who as the key can use the money. Key stolem = money stolen


I think you are confuse qui the non reversibility of bitcoin. This means that you can't reverse a transaction. The best analogy is cash. Once you give cash to someone you have no way to get the money back. This is unlike credit card transaction which are reversable.


Evildragon:


Accepting bitcoin is a cool idea. It might be a bit of work but if you're interested in it it could be worth it. I wouldn't expect that many people buying with bitcoin but we have a pretty computer savy crowd here so who knows.


If you do it correctly I don't think there are that many risk involved. You definitely want to avoid the exchange rate risk as much as possible. Bitcoin exchange rate can be quite volatile. Of course this is also true for "real" currency. More to the point, if you don't actully need to spend bitcoin, there is no reason to keep bitcoin (beside speculating).


There is no reason why bitcoin can't be sold on the market shortly after beeing received. I don't know exactly how other shop do it but there seem to be some payment sytems. Manally trading at a stock exchange (or though an API) is also possible. There is some info at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade


Perhaps the most important is that when using a exchange or a payment processing system there is obviously risk involved. Bitcoin behing quite young, service that which have stolen/lost money are not unheard of.


Just be careful and don't leave too much money in a third party. Any decent service should charge litle fee to do a bank transfer.


One good point for your shop is that the transaction are unreversable. So once you have the money the other party can't just file a claim like in a credit card transaction.


Another thing I can think of is refund policy. If you have to refund somebody it should be clear how they will be payed back. If payed in bitcoin and you pay then back in bitcoin there is obvisouly an exchange rate risk for you. Personally I would just make it clear that refund will be payed in bitcoin but using the current $/bitcoin exchange rate.

 

[WizardStan]

I think you are confuse qui the non reversibility of bitcoin. This means that you can't reverse a transaction. The best analogy is cash. Once you give cash to someone you have no way to get the money back. This is unlike credit card transaction which are reversable.

Yes, but like cash, every single bitcoin has a unique ID, doesn't it? If we had the resources to read and record the serial numbers on our bills, I could know that I had bill XYZ in my wallet. If that wallet is stolen and I then push out to the network "hey, bill XYZ has just been stolen" anyone that tries to use that bill will be caught as the thief. We can't do that with currency, it's just too much work, but most of that is already being done for bitcoins. I can know exactly which bitcoins I have, I can know exactly which bitcoins someone is giving me, there should be nothing really preventing someone from linking these two bits of information to track stolen bitcoins.

 

[neko]

Yes, but like cash, every single bitcoin has a unique ID, doesn't it? If we had the resources to read and record the serial numbers on our bills, I could know that I had bill XYZ in my wallet. If that wallet is stolen and I then push out to the network "hey, bill XYZ has just been stolen" anyone that tries to use that bill will be caught as the thief. We can't do that with currency, it's just too much work, but most of that is already being done for bitcoins. I can know exactly which bitcoins I have, I can know exactly which bitcoins someone is giving me, there should be nothing really preventing someone from linking these two bits of information to track stolen bitcoins.

Well, it's possible to do that, but if you find out that the thief is spending the stolen money in Russia, what are you going to do? Call the cops?

 

[Timstertoo]

Yes, but like cash, every single bitcoin has a unique ID, doesn't it? If we had the resources to read and record the serial numbers on our bills, I could know that I had bill XYZ in my wallet. If that wallet is stolen and I then push out to the network "hey, bill XYZ has just been stolen" anyone that tries to use that bill will be caught as the thief. We can't do that with currency, it's just too much work, but most of that is already being done for bitcoins. I can know exactly which bitcoins I have, I can know exactly which bitcoins someone is giving me, there should be nothing really preventing someone from linking these two bits of information to track stolen bitcoins.

Well, it's possible to do that, but if you find out that the thief is spending the stolen money in Russia, what are you going to do? Call the cops?

Also it's not recognised as money by states. So you're going to call the cops to say that someone stole your virtual internet tokens you use to buy illegal drugs from the dark web without paying any taxes over it. (ok, bit over the top, but you catch my drift :rolleyes: )

 

[gunrock]

It's mostly covered by the above posters, ED, but given the debt and problems you've run into, I'd steer well clear of bitcoins until they become a recognised currency or redesigned to be more secure.

 

[neko]

Another thing I can think of is refund policy. If you have to refund somebody it should be clear how they will be payed back. If payed in bitcoin and you pay then back in bitcoin there is obvisouly an exchange rate risk for you. Personally I would just make it clear that refund will be payed in bitcoin but using the current $/bitcoin exchange rate.

Some people weren't happy with Craig when they got their refunds at a different exchange rate.


If ED only sells what he has in stock, refunds should be rare enough that this won't be an issue.

 

[ekianjo]

It's mostly covered by the above posters, ED, but given the debt and problems you've run into, I'd steer well clear of bitcoins until they become a recognised currency or redesigned to be more secure.

Yeah, now is not the time to create more potential for failure and loss (and ED is known to say that if things can go wrong they WILL go wrong) - first thing is to get back in the black and have things running smoothly. There is no reason to believe that there is a huge potential of would-be bitcoin buyers who are waiting for this mode of payment to get the Pandora. It's "nice to have" but there are so many more things to work on first.

 

[_wb_]

I don't security is that much of a problem as long as you keep your bitcoin wallet small. I wouldn't spend too much time on this, but it would be nice to have it, it kind of adds to the geek status of your shop

 

[ekianjo]

I don't security is that much of a problem as long as you keep your bitcoin wallet small. I wouldn't spend too much time on this, but it would be nice to have it, it kind of adds to the geek status of your shop

Yeah but I'd rather see "Pandora 1Ghz in stock" as well as "refurbished units in stock" in the shop than a "pay with bitcoin button".

 

[neko]

It's mostly covered by the above posters, ED, but given the debt and problems you've run into, I'd steer well clear of bitcoins until they become a recognised currency or redesigned to be more secure.

How would you redesign bitcoin to be more secure? In what way is it insecure?


Is Bitfloor getting hacked somehow worse than Craig getting ripped off by HSBC?

There is no reason to believe that there is a huge potential of would-be bitcoin buyers who are waiting for this mode of payment to get the Pandora. It's "nice to have" but there are so many more things to work on first.

I've been putting off buying a 1GHz Pandora because of the hassle of paying for it.