Are threads disappearing from the forums?


S

Scntrblob

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I'm a little confused....


Earlier today I saw a thread here in the "General Talk" section that was named something like "Why are there so many flaws" or similiar. Seemed to be about the high number of pandoras that arrived with unoverseeable flaws at the customers related to the results of this poll and this post by Azure.


I found it a pretty intressting topic, wanted to reply now... but the thread seems to be gone. The only person I remember posting there was urjaman, but the thread isn't in his active content list.


The next thing is Craig calling Azure a "dick" just because he is disappointed of the QA. Understandable considering how obvious his pandoras flaw is.


I know OP is working hard and everything, but is this really the way costumers are supposed to be treaten here? Honestly, I am disappointed as well...
 
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i was also trying to reply to the thread but once i typed in my sarcastic reply, and clicked post, the thread was gone
 
Huh, that thread does seem to have disappeared.


Well, I wouldn't judge Craigix too harshly, he's constantly under a lot of stress and if people kept hounding and hounding me about anything I'd call a few people a few names also.
 
They were deleted because me and Ed are tired of telling people the reason you see every fault is because we tell the customers to come here first for help.


So almost every fault is reported in the support section. We might review this as while having a sort of database of faults and solutions is useful some people use it against us.


There are not mountains of returns, out of 2000 units there have been fewer than 200 returned, and the majority were from the first 600.


There is no point in making thread after thread about the threads in the support section, we cannot stop all faults, no company can. It isn't possible. However the number of units returned this year is fewer than 20 at the last count. That's an enormous improvement.


I told Azure he didn't have to be a dick about it (I mean come on, did you read his post? 'piss poor' etc. ).


We have decided to simply refund his money and that's the end. We clearly cannot meet his standards and there is no patching up that relationship looking at his post.


Actually, if someone wants to come here and watch the incredibly long test procedure each unit goes though then please do. You will then understand there isn't anything more that we can test with each one. Then we run the test AGAIN.
 
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Craigix said:
They were deleted because me and Ed are tired of telling people the reason you see every fault is because we tell the customers to come here first for help.


So almost every fault is reported in the support section. We might review this as while having a sort of database of faults and solutions is useful some people use it against us.


There are not mountains of returns, out of 2000 units there have been fewer than 200 returned, and the majority were from the first 600.


There is no point in making thread after thread about the threads in the support section, we cannot stop all faults, no company can. It isn't possible. However the number of units returned this year is fewer than 20 at the last count. That's an enormous improvement.


I told Azure he didn't have to be a dick about it (I mean come on, did you read his post? 'piss poor' etc. ).


We have decided to simply refund his money and that's the end. We clearly cannot meet his standards and there is no patching up that relationship looking at his post.


Actually, if someone wants to come here and watch the incredibly long test procedure each unit goes though then please do. You will then understand there isn't anything more that we can test with each one. Then we run the test AGAIN.
Click to expand...
Did you also ban me (I wasn't able to read this forum and thus any post where you told me not to be a dick)? And were my offenses really that bad to be banned? Considering the context, don't you think a little gripe is to be expected when receiving your 3rd Pandora and still finding issues with controls (maybe you could reproduce the post and let people decide for themselves whether my level of attitude was appropriate or not?)? It's not like I went off on a tirade and mindlessly flamed you guys like a troll without any substance to my post; I took the time to make 2 YouTube videos to properly display the D-Pad issue I was having...


Also, I think the D-Pad issue in my post is a valid complaint, don't you think? When you say that you "cannot meet my standards" it sounds like I have incredibly unrealistic standards from this product. I honestly feel that the quality of the D-Pad displayed in this videos is a legitimate complaint (my first 2 Pandoras didn't have this issue with the D-Pad, so it didn't seem like nit-picking to me):

https://www.youtube.com/embed/JAj55P9mzYg?feature=oembed
 
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@Craig


I cannot believe that ED agrees to deleting topics and banning users especially not in this case. You say you tell the people to report here, but if someone with his 3rd RMA reports and is starting to get angry you delete it. What do you await? Praises? It's natural that he isn't as happy as he would maybe be if it was his 1st faulty pandora.


I highly appreciate your work, but you did let your stress take the command here, which is certainly not good.


If your really only had 20 returns this year than this is of course more than only great. But the easier it would be to take those few even if they get angry at some point, wouldn't it?


Please unban Azure and say sorry. The way you handled this would make even more people lose their faith.


Once again, you do a great job and I like your style. Do not destroy this impression, please :)


@Azure


Imo, and I think the most here will agree, you did nothing too wrong. But have some patience with them, I think they are really working way to much. I have may thoughts about the QA, too, but in the end I cannot judge it as if they were a big company. We are their betatesters, things will improve.
 
Well, I didn't read the post in question, so I can't comment on that specifically, but I'm not sure that deleating threads and banning users is good overall. I guess if someone is yelling "Fire" in a crowded building, severe damage can be done, so in that regard, I guess it's OK.


I don't know if this is what happened or not, but I have seen Craig loose his temper in the past, and it almost always leads to some form of problem. Ed is a much more even/level headed felow, and that is why everyone respects him so much. He tries to please everyone all the time, and you can see that in his post. Sadly, the world isn't all peaches and cream, and sometimes harsh actions need to be taken. Craig sometimes goes overboard I feel, but it takes a lot to push him to that level(In my opinion).


I think every succesful business has a hard boiled chap at the head, otherwise the business would get walked over, and spat on by people just for the sake of it. I really think it's great that the whole team has ben much more active on the forums lately, but this is why you only saw ED for so long. Some people see kindness, as weakness, and act accordinly. I don't know if this is what happened here, but I see it daily around here in other situations and threads. I do like the chance to see post, and judge for myself if someone is out of line or not, but I quess that is why I don't have "MOD" abilities!


"absolute power corrupts absolutely"! ;)


Chris
 
How often do you hang out on the support forum for a product you bought like we all do? I'm sure if you browsed the official forums for your mp3 player or something you would get a pretty bad impression.


That said, deleting threads probably ain't the best idea. People usually get upset when that happens. We should start a community fundraiser to buy Craig a punching bag :p
 
Craig, don't make this turn into another saga like the one with Mali. I understand how Azure would be angry since he repeatedly had issues with three separate Pandoras. This is how to not treat customers.


Edit: I also know that the whole team is under a lot of stress and pressure in building the rest of batch one and the iCP's. I just feel that it's better to take a break and blow off steam in a way other than banning people who seem to have legitimate problems.
 
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I wonder if Ed could come in and comment?


@breakpots I've had threads in my favorites on support boards, they DO get pruned off unless its something that there isn't another post about, and the issue is user-fixable (or at least a workaround exists)


Looking at the videos themselves, I'm not sure, but it seems like in the first you found the furthest you could press without it registering and the 2nd you found some position that recoils? or something like that with how you pressed it


now, if he was making accusations against OP for not doing good quality checks, I can see where they have an issue. I also see where they say they "cannot meet his expectations" cause you can usually find some weird 'sweet spot' to make the controls seem glitchy. Considering the chances of having a defect in the first place (and I also suspect that repair units are checked more in the area that they were returned for) I'd have to agree that something seems fishy here, but then again I can't really think of a reason why someone would do this for the hell of it. I would like to see the original post(s) or at least another team member to comment on this
 
I think this is why Craig elected to not be a mod here. :p


But I can see where he's coming from. Not saying it's right, but I can imagine his total exasperation and frustration.
 
HTL2001 said:
I wonder if Ed could come in and comment?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I can ;)


Sorry, I took half a day off on Sunday (Yay!), so I missed the thread and cannot comment about what happened exactly.


As far as I understood, Azure go his third Pandora and had issues, right?


Then he was pissed off (understandable) and therefore posted that in an insulting and unfair way. At least for Craig, it seems, as I didn't see the original thread, I cannot comment on that.


Craig therefore didn't like that and removed that thread. And, as Craig mentioned, a stiff DPAD has been replied to a couple of times already. If that wasn't the issue, it's RMA, and no public thread.


RMAs are being dealt with the distributor, the community can't help here, so the only real reason to post it here is to show the world how bad the product is. As said, I haven't seen the original thread, but if it was kinda insulting, that could've been the case. Also, don't forget we're currently working 7 days a week, 10 - 15 hours a day, so Craig surely is stressed as well.


While it's unfortunate that all his Pandoras had some issues, it can happen. It's bad luck.


And I can fully understand why the last one, his DPAD issue, slipped through:


Yes, every single button is tested. But nobody tests this by playing any games. Each direction of the DPAD is working, so it passed.


All in all I think:


Azure was pissed off, Craig was stressed, that's why that happened.


Removing threads in an official board that let your product shine in a bad light is normal - that's probably why most companies like Sony, etc. don't HAVE official boards.


RMAs are something that should not be dealt in the public, but with your distributor.


If you ask me if I would've deleted the thread:


Probably not, as I usually don't delete ANY threads. However, I know some guys told me a few times that sometimes I should delete more threads. It's something very subjective, everyone would handle this differently.


I would've probably replied him that things like that can happen and he needs to contact his distributor - and closed it, if some flamewar would arise.
 
@ED


I asure you that it was not insulting in a way that it would deserve to be locked, even deleted or worse: a ban of the user. He was just pissed off as everyone would be. I even think Craig would have screamed much louder. B) *runningaway*


And if the QA would really be a problem, what I cannot judge, we have to talk about it. It doesn't help if the victims are forbidden to talk about it.
 
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EvilDragon said:
Craig therefore didn't like that and removed that thread.
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely certain I'm comfortable with this. As was mentioned, and with all due respect, Craig has demonstrated a bit of a temper in the past. I thought he recognized this in himself, and assuaged people's fears of emotional deletes and bans by saying he was going to remove his admin status once the board was running smooth. Looking at his user page seems to suggest he does no longer have that power, yet here we find that he does. This somehow feels worse than if he had simply kept the admin status.


Whether deleting the thread was a good thing or not, I don't think Craig should have been the one to make that decision simply because of how he gets sometimes. How do we know it really was a redundant thread and it wasn't just Craig getting angry and making a rash decision that he can't take back? This is a question that will be asked, if not explicitly than at least whispered among the older users, every time a post disappears. If people have to worry about offending Craig when they post, I don't think that will lead to a very harmonious forum. In contrast, no one worries about offending EvilDragon or Gruso when they post: they've never given indication that they would abuse their power.


I should make clear I trust Craig entirely to run his company in the best way he can, and to deliver Pandoras and iControlPads as rapidly and effectively as he is capable, but I don't trust him to keep a perfectly level head at all times and to not abuse the power that comes with being a moderator. A good businessman does not always make a good administrator, as a good administrator may not make a very effective businessman: they have two different goals that may at times be conflicting, and it takes a very special kind of person to handle that conflict.
 
I'm also tired of neverending trollers, complainers and whiners.


They were explained, re-explained and re-re-explained, and still re-re-ask the same questions again and again and again.


This is not censorship, this is common sense to remove those endless threads.


Things got better and better, from both product quality and continuous shipping pov, so if someone have to complain to the point of harassment, it's not time anymore.


They will make a better use of their time going harass sony :


http://www.osnews.com/story/24493/Judge_Hands_Over_IP_Logs_of_Several_Geohot_Sites_to_Sony
 
@WizardStan:


There's a lot of truth. I can confirm I'm a horrible businessman... way too honest and always trying to please someone.


As said, I wouldn't have deleted it, but I can't do any judgement without having seen it.


I know Craig is currently under a lot of pressure, so I can understand WHY that happened, but that doesn't mean I do AGREE with it.
 
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