Android Yes/No (Split from Some more of my ideas thread)

[milkshake]

having both an android and Ångström sub-forum would suffice

Sounds a great idea. Let's do that... Wait... That seems awfully familiar

If it isn't broke don't fix it

 

[SNESFAN]

In the end "leaving it to the community" seems the right choice to me. All I'm seeing here is a vocal minority that wants others to pay for their desires. It is a significant investment of time and money without obvious ways of amortization besides wishful thinking. I support b_o_b's proposal of a Pandora Android kickstarter. Let's see how much Android support is really worth to people. Even without ED directly supporting it, Android distribution and installation could easily be made totally noob friendly.

quote once agian from earlier, notaz speaks truth

 

Unless ED decides to hire someone to do Android, or some android expert appears out of nowhere and does it (yeah right), it's not going to happen.

 

giving android a 2nd class citizen treatment and putting it on the back burner for "the community to take care of it" will just lead to it never happening, or being half ass'ed (no offense notaz)

the current alternative linux distributions currently on the pandora have (extremely skilled) community members maintaining them. I've said many times in the past, the majority of the people who want android don't have the skill to do the port unlike the linux counterparts as been proven multiple times already. The only person with the skill to do the android port had no real interest in android and was more focused on linux, and could be said to be one of the community's current best programmers.

the "leave it to the community" theory doesn't work.

most people want an dual boot android and linux, it's the vocal minority that doesn't want it, and doesn't want any official effort put forth into making it happen. I think the responces are mixed on if the support should be official or not, but if not official, then it won't happen. I'm not trying to get you to pay for something I want to use. I want everyone to pay for something most people want.

@_wb_ until you can boot both android and a "normal" linux distro on the same kernel then it's not as simple as just slapping a new rootfs on the same kernel. If by the time the next pandora is released that the "convergence" has happened then getting android to work correctly should be as trivial as porting slackware or debian. I would then agree that giving it to the community to remove allegiance to any group of distros is a good thing. The android thing is not totally due to popularity, but difficulty of the port as well.

 

[_wb_]

Well I certainly don't want ED to spend money on paying someone to get Android to work and to maintain it. That could very well mean an extra cost of $20 per unit, in addition to the maybe $10 that would go the Microsoft patent trolling stuff.

I certainly don't feel like paying $30 more for something I wouldn't even use.

If the Android-fans cannot find someone who can make it work, then maybe they should crowd-source the money needed to pay someone to make it work.

I mean, what's the next step? Someone might claim that having Windows 8 support out of the box will increase sales, and everybody needs to pay so ED can ship Windows 8. I really wouldn't go down the road of making everyone pay for something that only some of us want.

 

[SNESFAN]

if he sells at least 4000 like he did before on the first day of the first one, and I can get him the contact and quote I got from before if ED wants it for the $20k quote. That's an added cost of $5 a unit, that's not too bad. Also not including it outside of a downloadable option and not a shipping option would be fine if it was for certain going to cause legal or licensing issues. That takes the price from significant $30 a unit to an almost insignificant $5 or less depending on future sales. I came up with a pretty decent solution (minimal boot time OS downloader) for how to be OS ambiguous when shipping and still make people happy.

I have literally never heard anyone show any support or fondness what-so-ever for windows RT (assuming ARM)...  but if it ends up being x86 then my argument would change to wanting supporting windows out of the box instead of android. (x86 android has no software similar to windows RT) The exact same arguments I made in favor of android could be used for windows (vast library of useful and entertaining software)

It's not like throwing money away, you are getting a large value for the money. I don't use bluetooth or USB host on my pandora but some people do, I ended up paying for that hardware regardless. Where do you draw the line on anything? I feel that added cost would be justified... easily.

 

[Ziz]

Hm, what is this community and especially the pandora about?

The pandora is the product of an open handheld community. It was created to avoid another closed system, we can not change or improve (afair it needed some time until every part of the GPL (!) firmware sourcecode of the gp2x was released), to avoid dependence from one evil™ concern, which ends supports, when it's please (like GPH...). It was meant as allrounder, not as the best in every category it fits in.

So and where are we now?

We discuss about leaving the freedom of linux for Android... I know, dual boot and stuff. And the poll! The poll didn't say anything, what people WANT, it says just, what people doesn't if it would be there. And dual booting just leads to two factions: Pandora-linux people vs. Pandora-android people. I had a dual boot system on my PC for a long time. At some point you choose one and don't boot the other option anymore. Most people don't read in this board! They just start PND Manager or Google Play to see, what's new. But if they never boot the other system again, they will not realize, that there will maybe be a new reason to boot Android or Linux again.

I thought, there were already Android gaming devices out there?

Furthermore google and Android experience some alarming changes the last years. Just have a look at Google+ and the Youtube fuckup happening right now. And do you really want an Android installed, which is named after a chocolate bar from nestlé? NESTLÉ? Holy shit, am I the only one, who cares, that google made a partnership with one of the most evil concerns in the world? You CAN'T not be evil, if you ally with Nestlé.

Anyway. Furthermore I don't think ED should invest his money in porting Android and supporting Microsoft with fucking patents. >.<

God, an "open handheld community", which really debates about paying Microsoft for patents just to get more trolls for the forum -_-

 

[SNESFAN]

dual boot is vastly better than just flashing one or another. Being able to flip back and forth would be a very probable use case. Similar to the android PND we have now. It hasn't split our community or made people just use the pandora for it's android aspects. Each OS has it's strengths and weaknesses, a smart person would learn to use those unique advantages to bet fit their uses. 

RIght now there is there Slack, debian, and angstrom users? not really, they're all pretty much pandora users.

And I'm sorry I've seen this point made a couple times and I'm still trying to grasp it. I'm sorry if I'm being simple. Giving people a choice of an option is somehow removing the openess? Open also equals choice.

 

[_wb_]

Your welcome to your opinion ekianjo, as are the majority who decided they wanted Android. You know majority rules and democracy and all that.


As for who would support it, my point is let ED look into it rather than making fear mongering comments like no-one will support it.

Where is this poll where the majority has decided they want Android? I cannot find it.

I found this poll:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/7768-which-os-would-you-like-the-the-pandora-2-to-run-the-fair-version/

(19 votes for Linux, 6 for Android, 3 for Windows 8)

this poll:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/7315-pandora-2-and-which-os/

(77 votes for Linux option, 29 for Android option, 67 need Linux, 3 need Android, 55 like to have both, 15 want only one OS supported, 10 for Windows 8)

this poll:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/7039-poll-whats-best-in-the-p1-what-should-the-p2-have//URL]

(85 out of 101 voted "Real Linux (not locked/dumbed down)(not android)" as a top-5 feature of something good in the P1 that the P2 should also have)

and today this poll was added:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/14962-another-android-preference-poll-anonymous/?hl=%2Bandroid+%2Bpoll

So where is this majority that needs to have official Android support out of the box? Maybe I missed something...

 

[ekianjo]

And I'm sorry I've seen this point made a couple times and I'm still trying to grasp it. I'm sorry if I'm being simple. Giving people a choice of an option is somehow removing the openess? Open also equals choice.

Open means you can tinker with it. Not that you distribute tons of OS right in the box.

So where is this majority that needs to have official Android support out of the box? Maybe I missed something...

Thanks for doing some sanity check here _wb_.

 

[Ziz]

Giving people a choice of an option is somehow removing the openess? Open also equals choice.

No. Open just means that the system is, you know... open. The preinstalled operating system is as open as possible (see driver foobar) and you can do with it, what ever you want. You have to freedom to install Android or even an ARM-port of Freedos
When you force me to pay patent fees to Microsoft or porting fees for some Android-team you take MY freedom of not choosing and paying Android.

 

[ekianjo]

When you force me to pay patent fees to Microsoft or porting fees for some Android-team you take MY freedom of not choosing and paying Android.

Exactly. it's a non-choice per se.

 

[SNESFAN]

What if I had the same stance on linux? saying I don't want to pay for any linux distro to be supported. You're forcing me to pay for something I might not use. It doesn't work the other way around does it? It's one of those needed options. I feel android is one of those needed options as well.

o·pen


ˈōpən/


adjective

adjective: open

 



3. (of a choice, offer, or opportunity) still available; such that people can take advantage of it

5. (of a question, case, or decision) not finally settled; still admitting of debate.

 

[ekianjo]

What if I had the same stance on linux? saying I don't want to pay for any linux distro to be supported. You're foring me to pay for something I might not use. It doesn't work the other way around does it? It's one of those needed options. I feel android is one of those needed options as well.

Linux is (mostly) free software. Android, not so much. At least not the Android most people want. And ANdroid costs money (patent trolls in case you missed something). You don't need to pay for Linux to be there.

And if you really want a non-Linux, Android device, well be my guest ! there's tons of options out there! Have fun and bye bye.

o·pen ˈōpən/ adjective adjective: open 3. (of a choice, offer, or opportunity) still available; such that people can take advantage of it 5. (of a question, case, or decision) not finally settled; still admitting of debate.

Stop treating us like fucking children who don't know the meaning of the word "open". You know very well what we mean here.

 

[Ziz]

You pay for Angstrom? Please explain this to me.

 

[commander-beef]

hmm, it will be nice if we will have android from start, but i'll not cry becasue of lack of android. [im crying because no one managed to port Haiku OS [from haiku team] to Arm7, crap.. ]

 

[SNESFAN]

What if I had the same stance on linux? saying I don't want to pay for any linux distro to be supported. You're foring me to pay for something I might not use. It doesn't work the other way around does it? It's one of those needed options. I feel android is one of those needed options as well.

Linux is (mostly) free software. Android, not so much. At least not the Android most people want. And ANdroid costs money (patent trolls in case you missed something). You don't need to pay for Linux to be there.

And if you really want a non-Linux, Android device, well be my guest ! there's tons of options out there! Have fun and bye bye.

o·pen ˈōpən/ adjective adjective: open 3. (of a choice, offer, or opportunity) still available; such that people can take advantage of it 5. (of a question, case, or decision) not finally settled; still admitting of debate.

Stop treating us like fucking children who don't know the meaning of the word "open". You know very well what we mean here.

android is free software, patent trolls not involved in the actual software say you have to pay to have it shipped with the device. Workaround is to provide it aftwards without paying the troll a dime. I want linux or else I wouldn't be here or have a pandora obviously. I just want the choice of something else at the same level of useability as angstrom on it. And there is no android only alternative to the pandora, it is unique not only in software.

ziz said open!=choice I gave the definition of open==choice, stop getting so mad about this and acting like I'm talking down to anyone.

"No. Open just means that the system is, you know... open."

not providing the option in this specific instance is the same as never having it as an option. If not official, it will not happen. (example, current pandora)

I'm fairly certain that at one point someone was paid something for the development of the OS and firmware. That may no longer be the case (maintenance) but I'm sure at one point it was true. That money had to come from somewhere.

 

[_wb_]

What if I had the same stance on linux? saying I don't want to pay for any linux distro to be supported. You're forcing me to pay for something I might not use. It doesn't work the other way around does it? It's one of those needed options. I feel android is one of those needed options as well.

The difference is that there will be no difficulty to find volunteers to make a GNU/Linux distro work on the P2. It's not like ED is going to pay someone $20,000 to do it. Most of the hard work done for the P1 will probably even be re-usable for the P2. And we certainly don't need to pay Microsoft.

So no, we're not forcing you to pay at all. And if you don't force me to pay either (which is perfectly possible, if you can find a volunteer to make Replicant work or some other flavor of Android), I don't object to extra options being available, out-of-the box (if licensing/patent trolls can be guaranteed to not be a potential problem) or otherwise.

And if you want to pay for and (try to) install iOS or Windows or RISC OS or whatever, be my guest. It's an open system, it's yours, you're free to do what you want, your warranty will not be voided. Just don't come knocking on ED's door with your software problems.

 

[ekianjo]

I'm fairly certain that at one point someone was paid something for the development of the OS and firmware. That may no longer be the case (maintenance) but I'm sure at one point it was true. That money had to come from somewhere.

Yeah, but they decided they would spend their time on Linux, and not Android. And as far as I know the ones who work on the firmware and current OS still want Linux before anything else.

 

[ekianjo]

android is free software

Nope, not really. Several times Google has been caught not releasing the source until way later after the release (to give advantage to their device partners manufacturers). You can technically call it Free Software but it's Free Software without respecting the ethics of Free Software: no development in the open, differed release of sources, sometimes no sources released for a very long time (the first Android for tablets, forgot the name, was not released until 1 year+ later). It's a joke compared to the development of Linux source code.

Read the FSF's opinion piece on Android before claiming it's Free Software. And most of the Google applications that people want to use (Gmail, Skype, Google+, and 99% of applications on the Play store), everything is closed, proprietary software.

 

[FaeMinx]

Software on Android isn't free? What are you talking about? You could drown in free apps...

And yes, some of them are great!

And no, Just because the vast majority depend on advertising (which you can get around), or in-app-purchases doesn't discount there is still a huge amount of free useful and fun software out there.

Boy am I glad I have an 'Open' mind and don't restrict myself and try to restrict others with an elitist attitude.

 

[ekianjo]

Software on Android isn't free? What are you talking about? You could drown in free apps...

Free!=free

You don't seem to understand the meaning of Free Software. It has nothing to do with freeware. Come back when you understand what GNU/Linux is all about.

Congratulations, you earned a facepalm